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2019/08/22 15:47:43
Subject: Re:Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Honestly when I read the Phobos Lt sheet I was genuinely confused, I thought I was just reading it wrong because it was after work. Things are odd. We got 2 troop choices from this release, both wearing Phobos gear. It would have been predictable but I thought we'd only get the one troop option. It's worse since they're both extremely similar (infiltrators and incursors)
It really is weird that Incursors are Troops. I was expecting Fast Attack with Grav-Chutes or Elites.
Of course, I also thought that maybe Incursors would just be Infiltrators with a different loadout.
Personally I've come to think that GW is milking its social media in a very clever way, which is driving sales. Nothing has really changed about the company or its shoddy business practices, but it appears the opposite thanks to the hard work of the community team.
Spoiler:
They put out an inferior product in the rules department, but hey, you didn't notice because.... DUNCAN MEMES! LOOK GUYS! WE KNOW MEEMS!!!! AREN'T WE SO COOL AND DOWN TO EARTH AND HIP? Here, now go buy this mono-pose character for 35 USD. And don't mention how our rules make no sense and our points are poorly calculated. Don't like any of that? Well, here is a brand new BOXSET!!! YAY!! Buy it nOw! Want your Space Marine Codex? Cool! Now you have to buy the Codex and 10 chapter books, for a grand total od 300+ dollars! My, my aren't we so clever? Heck, I bet that is why Xenos have basically gotten no support, they're much harder to carve the content up and sell. No one is going to want individual chapter books for Necrons or Tau. Models aren't that different between Septs or Sects. But Space Marines, or Guard, sign us up for that train of money! Let's get ta' carvin' boyz!
...cool story bruh?
Most of your complaints seem to be predicated upon lacking impulse control or chasing the meta or, for whatever reason, "needing" to have all the rules.
I don't need to have the Ultramarines rules as a Raven Guard player. I'm buying two books, tops.
I also don't need to have the Index, because most of the stuff in there is garbage and people just like to whine that they "need" it for some weird cornercase unit that they want to spam.
I also don't need to have Forge World rules, cause I don't own any of that nonsense.
The only things I "need" to bring with me for my Raven Guard?
Marine Codex, Raven Guad book, Big Rulebook...if I want to.
That's great, so just F the rest of us right? We don't matter. We're just meta chasers, that's the only reason! We're mad because we can't win win win!
Those of us who do want the whole package, who do not want our content to be carved up and sold to us at an absolute premium are just wrong and stupid?
Bury that head in the sand brother, the deeper the better.
Honestly when I read the Phobos Lt sheet I was genuinely confused, I thought I was just reading it wrong because it was after work. Things are odd. We got 2 troop choices from this release, both wearing Phobos gear. It would have been predictable but I thought we'd only get the one troop option. It's worse since they're both extremely similar (infiltrators and incursors)
It really is weird that Incursors are Troops. I was expecting Fast Attack with Grav-Chutes or Elites.
Of course, I also thought that maybe Incursors would just be Infiltrators with a different loadout.
Yes, they both infiltrate, both have S4 bolters, one just auto wounds on 6s and blocks deep strike while the other ignores modifiers (including positive ones) and ignores cover. It basically is a simple gear swap so I guess I can't get too mad but it seems like a waste. Incursors could have had more unique weapons but if they were too good they'd show up reivers haha (which they already do imo)
This is part of the issue. GW puts too many choices into units. Could you imagine if each codex has between 6-10 characters, and 8-12 units in them tops? With well thought out roles, some simple redundancy and good stratagems?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 15:49:24
2019/08/22 15:59:25
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Yeah the Phobos release has been really confusing. As I was trying to build a list with Phobos stuff, it was really hard to make it work with the lieutenant and captain and have it be worth taking over just more intercessors. And the incursors cant take comms upgrade. And suppressors aren’t Phobos. And the Reiver lieutenant can’t deepstrike. That one’s the most baffling since how hard would it be to just put the grav chutes on the sprue. . .
It’s so weird that the one unit that really could have best used an alternate weapon was the suppressors, and they’re the one who doesn’t get it.
They’ve segregated off this Phobos stuff with they way they can be buffed, but aside from the librarian and obscuration discipline I think they’ve botched it quite badly. It’s like they had a meeting where anyone who said “wouldn’t it be cool if this model worked great with these models” was told “no” as a joke, but the rules guys wrote it that way anyway.
Did they have completely different teams working on the rules for this stuff? I seriously can’t understand their reasoning for some of these things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 16:00:17
2019/08/22 16:18:29
Subject: Re:Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
That's great, so just F the rest of us right? We don't matter. We're just meta chasers, that's the only reason! We're mad because we can't win win win!
If the shoe fits...
Those of us who do want the whole package, who do not want our content to be carved up and sold to us at an absolute premium are just wrong and stupid?
Frankly, I call bull on this crap. How many of these characters(because that's the majority of what was "carved up") did you really ever own, let alone field? I've played Raptors/Raven Guard exclusively and I don't even own Shrike--because I hated his model.
The book lost characters and a few weird units that I've never seen fielded, yet apparently now it's THE END OF THE WORLD!!!1!!!
Bury that head in the sand brother, the deeper the better.
Try impulse control. It helps a lot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 16:18:56
2019/08/22 16:22:13
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
GW has no idea what direction they want to go with Space Marines. They're just tossing all of their ideas into the pot and seeing what happens. It's the same thing that happened with Stormcast Eternals for AoS. No direction... Just feel it out as it goes.
My prediction is that what we'll end up with / what we are currently getting is on par with what GW did with Stormcast Eternals in AoS in the sense that the Space Marines faction is no longer just one cohesive model line, but rather the Space Marines faction will become an umbrella with 3,4 or 5+ independent model lines under it and while we can/could mesh everything together we're not really meant to.
The intention being that SM armies become sub-divided...
a SM (i.e. classic) army consisting of only the classic models or...
a SM Primaris army consisting of only <Primaris> units or...
a SM Phobos army consisting of only the <Phobos> units, etc.
2019/08/22 16:51:46
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
I want to write some sort of rant on the Infiltrators and Incursors having Advanced Deploy when they have lousy melee stats, but I do actually have uses for them.
My local group has a bad habit of setting up all the area terrain so its mostly in no-man's-land and deploying entirely into cover isn't possible. Generally it's close enough that couple of extra inches forward will double or triple the amount of cover I have to work with, and Comms means not having to castle as hard.
My only real issue is their point cost and I fully expect that to drop in the next CA when neither unit shows up in any tournament lists and the sales numbers are basically nil after the initial wave of completionists buying a box to build Incursors.
That's great, so just F the rest of us right? We don't matter. We're just meta chasers, that's the only reason! We're mad because we can't win win win!
If the shoe fits...
Those of us who do want the whole package, who do not want our content to be carved up and sold to us at an absolute premium are just wrong and stupid?
Frankly, I call bull on this crap. How many of these characters(because that's the majority of what was "carved up") did you really ever own, let alone field? I've played Raptors/Raven Guard exclusively and I don't even own Shrike--because I hated his model.
The book lost characters and a few weird units that I've never seen fielded, yet apparently now it's THE END OF THE WORLD!!!1!!!
Bury that head in the sand brother, the deeper the better.
Try impulse control. It helps a lot.
Well I own Vulkan He'Stan, Captain Lysander, Kosorro Khan, Captain Shirke, and Cato Sicarius. Unlike a lot of the dakka community, I rather enjoy forging a narrative stent to my games. I like to run lists with predator tanks from one chapter, added into Terminators from another.
If you think I am competitive, I invite you to go over to the 40k list forum and check the types of lists I often share on this site. Then come back and tell me how competitive I am.
Your're pathetic dude. Stop trying to tell me how I enjoy my game and getting mad because you don't like the fact that I've called out poor little games workshop for their gakky business strategy.
2019/08/22 18:03:13
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
oni wrote: GW has no idea what direction they want to go with Space Marines. They're just tossing all of their ideas into the pot and seeing what happens. It's the same thing that happened with Stormcast Eternals for AoS. No direction... Just feel it out as it goes.
My prediction is that what we'll end up with / what we are currently getting is on par with what GW did with Stormcast Eternals in AoS in the sense that the Space Marines faction is no longer just one cohesive model line, but rather the Space Marines faction will become an umbrella with 3,4 or 5+ independent model lines under it and while we can/could mesh everything together we're not really meant to.
The intention being that SM armies become sub-divided... a SM (i.e. classic) army consisting of only the classic models or... a SM Primaris army consisting of only <Primaris> units or... a SM Phobos army consisting of only the <Phobos> units, etc.
Frankly, it's obnoxious that they wussed out on keeping the Stormcast stuff divided up.
The Vanguard Chamber had a good potential for a narrative force that got dumped because of all the whining about the Extremis Chamber getting its own book.
Well I own Vulkan He'Stan, Captain Lysander, Kosorro Khan, Captain Shirke, and Cato Sicarius. Unlike a lot of the dakka community, I rather enjoy forging a narrative stent to my games. I like to run lists with predator tanks from one chapter, added into Terminators from another. If you think I am competitive, I invite you to go over to the 40k list forum and check the types of lists I often share on this site. Then come back and tell me how competitive I am.
I'm sure that your approach had nothing whatsoever to do with certain units being more effective/optimal with certain Chapter Tactics.
Your're pathetic dude. Stop trying to tell me how I enjoy my game and getting mad because you don't like the fact that I've called out poor little games workshop for their gakky business strategy.
I'm not the one dumping on everyone else's threads about how woefully you're being mistreated, calling people "pathetic", etc when it just sounds like you have poor impulse control and an obsessive need to "own" everything that you're trying to justify with .
Not a single damn thing in the supplements is required for you at this point. There's a free PDF for all the characters they dropped.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 18:07:11
2019/08/22 19:07:26
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Well I own Vulkan He'Stan, Captain Lysander, Kosorro Khan, Captain Shirke, and Cato Sicarius. Unlike a lot of the dakka community, I rather enjoy forging a narrative stent to my games. I like to run lists with predator tanks from one chapter, added into Terminators from another. If you think I am competitive, I invite you to go over to the 40k list forum and check the types of lists I often share on this site. Then come back and tell me how competitive I am.
I'm sure that your approach had nothing whatsoever to do with certain units being more effective/optimal with certain Chapter Tactics.
Your're pathetic dude. Stop trying to tell me how I enjoy my game and getting mad because you don't like the fact that I've called out poor little games workshop for their gakky business strategy.
I'm not the one dumping on everyone else's threads about how woefully you're being mistreated, calling people "pathetic", etc when it just sounds like you have poor impulse control and an obsessive need to "own" everything that you're trying to justify with .
Not a single damn thing in the supplements is required for you at this point. There's a free PDF for all the characters they dropped.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I buy things because I like them, not because the meta tells me to. No Loyal 32, Knights, Custodes Jetbikes or smash captains in my collection.
That's wonderful. If you like having a company split up stuff in order to nickle and dime you out of twice the amount of money you should be paying, more power to you I guess. You seem like one of those people who supports loot boxes in 60$ games because they're "JUST COSMETIC BRO." Please. It's okay to be wrong my friend. No one here is going to think any less of you.
Just wait until GW introduces their own brand of "surprise mechanics."
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 19:13:26
2019/08/22 20:27:33
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Sorry to disappoint you, but I buy things because I like them, not because the meta tells me to. No Loyal 32, Knights, Custodes Jetbikes or smash captains in my collection.
Did you actually have anything to add to the discussion at hand or are you just going to keep complaining about how wronged you've been?
That's wonderful. If you like having a company split up stuff in order to nickle and dime you out of twice the amount of money you should be paying, more power to you I guess. You seem like one of those people who supports loot boxes in 60$ games because they're "JUST COSMETIC BRO."
And you seem like one of those people who whines about lootboxes being available with real money as well as in-game currency. Nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to buy it.
Frankly, the fact that you can't see that your complaints about this whole thing have a flipside that's positive is just sad.
You're being so petulant over the fact that "I have to buy all these books now because I bought all this stuff!" while ignoring that other people can buy exactly what they want instead of getting saddled with excess stuff they'll never use. This isn't the old style of Codex where characters could be used by anyone as "counts as". Things are <Faction> locked now. I will never be able to field a Marneus Calgar and Victrix Guard with my Raven Guard, so why should I have to pay $50-$60 for my army's book for excess crap I'm never going to use?
Please. It's okay to be wrong my friend. No one here is going to think any less of you.
Says the guy trying to claim that people are "getting mad" in the same sentence while calling them pathetic and trying to claim that their opinions are "wrong".
Just wait until GW introduces their own brand of "surprise mechanics."
Psst. You know that Space Marine Heroes exists, right?
2019/08/22 20:33:04
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
MistaGav wrote: It's all simply because the Reiver Lieutenant doesn't have the Grav chutes modelled or packaged therefore ruleswise it doesn't get to have one. It is completely nonsensical but hey, that's GW for you!
Yes. The no-model- no rules idiocy is getting really damaging to the game. All primaris characters are harmed by it but this lieutenant took a critical hit!
Again, I get that they don't want to give rules for things they do not sell at all, but anything that could be easily kitbashed from the bits of the same faction should be allowed.
The rule is in place to avoid allowing other companies room to make conversion bits. Third Parties can't make Grav Chute conversion kits if the base model can't take Grav Chutes, and supplying them with the base kit reduces the chances of someone going third party. The current GW models means that if someone goes third-party, its purely to fit an aesthetic that GW dont cover properly, such as super-Spartan style Space Marines, or female Imperial Guard, or AK47-esque rifles. If someone wanted alternate versions of Grav Chutes, they can go out and get some, but the kit comes with them to start so there is no NEED to do so.
It doesn't even work though, as they still limit weapons options like it physically pains them to give you enough of what you want. Like the current CSM Havoc squad, one chain cannon, really ? Most of the deathwatch options in that box have like one of options. People will find third party companies to fill those needs and wants and many have so even their policy won't save them from feeding other casters because they are trying to milk you for every nickel and dime.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 20:33:43
2019/08/22 21:48:04
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
MistaGav wrote: It's all simply because the Reiver Lieutenant doesn't have the Grav chutes modelled or packaged therefore ruleswise it doesn't get to have one. It is completely nonsensical but hey, that's GW for you!
Yes. The no-model- no rules idiocy is getting really damaging to the game. All primaris characters are harmed by it but this lieutenant took a critical hit!
Again, I get that they don't want to give rules for things they do not sell at all, but anything that could be easily kitbashed from the bits of the same faction should be allowed.
The rule is in place to avoid allowing other companies room to make conversion bits. Third Parties can't make Grav Chute conversion kits if the base model can't take Grav Chutes, and supplying them with the base kit reduces the chances of someone going third party. The current GW models means that if someone goes third-party, its purely to fit an aesthetic that GW dont cover properly, such as super-Spartan style Space Marines, or female Imperial Guard, or AK47-esque rifles. If someone wanted alternate versions of Grav Chutes, they can go out and get some, but the kit comes with them to start so there is no NEED to do so.
It doesn't even work though, as they still limit weapons options like it physically pains them to give you enough of what you want. Like the current CSM Havoc squad, one chain cannon, really ? Most of the deathwatch options in that box have like one of options. People will find third party companies to fill those needs and wants and many have so even their policy won't save them from feeding other casters because they are trying to milk you for every nickel and dime.
This. The biggest use of 3rd party minis is and always has been to source bits that GW refuses to include enough of in their kits. They act like they are reaching into their own private stash giving us extra bits. For instance, why do we have to source crisis suit weapons from 3d printed sellers? Would it really pain them so much to include a couple extra cents of plastic into an $80 kit?
2019/08/22 22:39:10
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
MistaGav wrote: It's all simply because the Reiver Lieutenant doesn't have the Grav chutes modelled or packaged therefore ruleswise it doesn't get to have one. It is completely nonsensical but hey, that's GW for you!
Yes. The no-model- no rules idiocy is getting really damaging to the game. All primaris characters are harmed by it but this lieutenant took a critical hit!
Again, I get that they don't want to give rules for things they do not sell at all, but anything that could be easily kitbashed from the bits of the same faction should be allowed.
The rule is in place to avoid allowing other companies room to make conversion bits. Third Parties can't make Grav Chute conversion kits if the base model can't take Grav Chutes, and supplying them with the base kit reduces the chances of someone going third party. The current GW models means that if someone goes third-party, its purely to fit an aesthetic that GW dont cover properly, such as super-Spartan style Space Marines, or female Imperial Guard, or AK47-esque rifles. If someone wanted alternate versions of Grav Chutes, they can go out and get some, but the kit comes with them to start so there is no NEED to do so.
It doesn't even work though, as they still limit weapons options like it physically pains them to give you enough of what you want. Like the current CSM Havoc squad, one chain cannon, really ? Most of the deathwatch options in that box have like one of options. People will find third party companies to fill those needs and wants and many have so even their policy won't save them from feeding other casters because they are trying to milk you for every nickel and dime.
This. The biggest use of 3rd party minis is and always has been to source bits that GW refuses to include enough of in their kits. They act like they are reaching into their own private stash giving us extra bits. For instance, why do we have to source crisis suit weapons from 3d printed sellers? Would it really pain them so much to include a couple extra cents of plastic into an $80 kit?
I asked this same question in relation to the new CSM Terminator sprue which has over half of one of the sprues wasted on trophy racks. That area could have been used to include axes and plasma.
2019/08/22 22:46:19
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
The whole thing is utterly stupid. For example GW literally sells several upgrade sprues for the primaris. But for some completely mysterious reason the rules allow to use the weapons on those sprues only with the intercessor sergeant; not any other primaris sergeant and certainly not with the characters!
It makes absolutely zero sense from any perspective I can imagine. The limited gear options is like the number one problem people have with the primaris. And certainly from the financial perspective it would make perfect sense to open up those options. They would sell much more of both the character models and the upgrade sprues. It is just pure insanity.
Crimson wrote: The whole thing is utterly stupid. For example GW literally sells several upgrade sprues for the primaris. But for some completely mysterious reason the rules allow to use the weapons on those sprues only with the intercessor sergeant; not any other primaris sergeant and certainly not with the characters!
It makes absolutely zero sense from any perspective I can imagine. The limited gear options is like the number one problem people have with the primaris. And certainly from the financial perspective it would make perfect sense to open up those options. They would sell much more of both the character models and the upgrade sprues. It is just pure insanity.
Also no model no rule isn't exactly true either.
Apparently Primaris Sarges can have Flame Pistols now, but no such bit exists currently.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 23:10:45
2019/08/22 23:12:53
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Crimson wrote: The whole thing is utterly stupid. For example GW literally sells several upgrade sprues for the primaris. But for some completely mysterious reason the rules allow to use the weapons on those sprues only with the intercessor sergeant; not any other primaris sergeant and certainly not with the characters!
It makes absolutely zero sense from any perspective I can imagine. The limited gear options is like the number one problem people have with the primaris. And certainly from the financial perspective it would make perfect sense to open up those options. They would sell much more of both the character models and the upgrade sprues. It is just pure insanity.
Also no model no rule isn't exactly true either.
Apparently Primaris Sarges can have Flame Pistols now, but no such bit exists currently.
Those are probably coming out with the Salamanders sprue. A better argument would be a Taurox Prime being able to take a heavy stubber.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 23:14:46
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
2019/08/23 00:04:18
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Bit of history for folks who might not know...that sprue used to come with every single Guard vehicle, up until they redid the Chimera and Leman Russ kits. It now only comes with the Basilisk kit that they sell, and that only because it has no Hull weapon on the Chimera frames that come included.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/23 00:05:08
2019/08/23 00:11:47
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Kanluwen wrote: And you seem like one of those people who whines about lootboxes being available with real money as well as in-game currency. Nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to buy it.
Wow. That's a level of self-inflicted failure I never thought I'd see, attempting GW apologism by comparing GW to ing loot boxes. You know, the abusive business practice that is actually so far over the line that it's illegal in a growing list of countries?
You're being so petulant over the fact that "I have to buy all these books now because I bought all this stuff!" while ignoring that other people can buy exactly what they want instead of getting saddled with excess stuff they'll never use. This isn't the old style of Codex where characters could be used by anyone as "counts as". Things are <Faction> locked now. I will never be able to field a Marneus Calgar and Victrix Guard with my Raven Guard, so why should I have to pay $50-$60 for my army's book for excess crap I'm never going to use?
Ah yes, more of the masochistic "hurt me daddy GW, hurt me" attitude towards their anti-consumer business practices. Why does a rulebook have to cost $50-60 for a few extra pages of rules?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/08/23 00:19:13
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
redboi wrote: I noticed this as well. Just more nonsensical rules writing by GW. It's like someone wrote a rough draft for the lieutenant and then just sent it out like that without anyone taking a second glance at it to check for consistency
Or maybe they don't want characters able to charge turn 1?
2019/08/23 01:19:36
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
This was certainly a head-scratcher to me. I didn't even bother putting the grav-chute bits on my Reivers since I don't think they look all that good on the model, are fiddly and risk for breaking off and kinda unnecessary. I mean I paid the extra points and the models aren't on the table at until Turn 2. I give my opponent enough credit to know they are deep strikers. Heck, lorewise I explain it that my chapter's grav chutes are 1 use items that burn out upon use and, just like a parachute, doffed upon landing.
I also can't really understand why the model was created since nothing it is armed with anything Reivers don't already have, I still kinda wanted to get it since I like Reivers so much. It would have been nice to have a matching LT drop in with them. However, for really the first time for me in 40k, the rules (and the single character money cost) are having me pass on it. Why spend that money for a matching Lt if he can jump with the rest of his squad?
I do hope they change this. Like I said, I want to pick up the model and the lack of grav chutes works out better for me. But if I can't even use it with my Reivers in my favorite way to deploy them, why bother spending that amount of money? The sculpt isn't that good for me to bother.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/23 02:05:28
2019/08/23 02:32:00
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
redboi wrote: I noticed this as well. Just more nonsensical rules writing by GW. It's like someone wrote a rough draft for the lieutenant and then just sent it out like that without anyone taking a second glance at it to check for consistency
Or maybe they don't want characters able to charge turn 1?
Bruh they gave the Captain infiltrate. Clearly its not an issue. How is a lieutenant charging in with his squad with his S4 0AP attacks a problem? Meanwhile I can jump an 80pt warboss and obliterate a knight turn one
The problem is that his war gear is flipped. Arm him like an infiltrator and he has grav chutes like a reiver and can't infiltrate with the squad. Arm him like a reiver and he loses his grav chutes and can't drop with the reivers
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/23 02:40:22
2019/08/23 09:08:39
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
MistaGav wrote: It's all simply because the Reiver Lieutenant doesn't have the Grav chutes modelled or packaged therefore ruleswise it doesn't get to have one. It is completely nonsensical but hey, that's GW for you!
Yes. The no-model- no rules idiocy is getting really damaging to the game. All primaris characters are harmed by it but this lieutenant took a critical hit!
Again, I get that they don't want to give rules for things they do not sell at all, but anything that could be easily kitbashed from the bits of the same faction should be allowed.
The rule is in place to avoid allowing other companies room to make conversion bits. Third Parties can't make Grav Chute conversion kits if the base model can't take Grav Chutes, and supplying them with the base kit reduces the chances of someone going third party. The current GW models means that if someone goes third-party, its purely to fit an aesthetic that GW dont cover properly, such as super-Spartan style Space Marines, or female Imperial Guard, or AK47-esque rifles. If someone wanted alternate versions of Grav Chutes, they can go out and get some, but the kit comes with them to start so there is no NEED to do so.
It doesn't even work though, as they still limit weapons options like it physically pains them to give you enough of what you want. Like the current CSM Havoc squad, one chain cannon, really ? Most of the deathwatch options in that box have like one of options. People will find third party companies to fill those needs and wants and many have so even their policy won't save them from feeding other casters because they are trying to milk you for every nickel and dime.
This. The biggest use of 3rd party minis is and always has been to source bits that GW refuses to include enough of in their kits. They act like they are reaching into their own private stash giving us extra bits. For instance, why do we have to source crisis suit weapons from 3d printed sellers? Would it really pain them so much to include a couple extra cents of plastic into an $80 kit?
I asked this same question in relation to the new CSM Terminator sprue which has over half of one of the sprues wasted on trophy racks. That area could have been used to include axes and plasma.
Maybe they're trying to tell you "Stop min-maxing your units!"? Ie, stop spamming chaincannon Havocs, use some Lascannons. Use more fists and combi-bolters on your terminators.
GW have repeatedly enforced that they are a model company first, gaming company second. They design models to look fun, immersive and diverse, which means NOT a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V of the same dude over and over.
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2019/08/23 09:55:42
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
MistaGav wrote: It's all simply because the Reiver Lieutenant doesn't have the Grav chutes modelled or packaged therefore ruleswise it doesn't get to have one. It is completely nonsensical but hey, that's GW for you!
Yes. The no-model- no rules idiocy is getting really damaging to the game. All primaris characters are harmed by it but this lieutenant took a critical hit!
Again, I get that they don't want to give rules for things they do not sell at all, but anything that could be easily kitbashed from the bits of the same faction should be allowed.
The rule is in place to avoid allowing other companies room to make conversion bits. Third Parties can't make Grav Chute conversion kits if the base model can't take Grav Chutes, and supplying them with the base kit reduces the chances of someone going third party. The current GW models means that if someone goes third-party, its purely to fit an aesthetic that GW dont cover properly, such as super-Spartan style Space Marines, or female Imperial Guard, or AK47-esque rifles. If someone wanted alternate versions of Grav Chutes, they can go out and get some, but the kit comes with them to start so there is no NEED to do so.
It doesn't even work though, as they still limit weapons options like it physically pains them to give you enough of what you want. Like the current CSM Havoc squad, one chain cannon, really ? Most of the deathwatch options in that box have like one of options. People will find third party companies to fill those needs and wants and many have so even their policy won't save them from feeding other casters because they are trying to milk you for every nickel and dime.
This. The biggest use of 3rd party minis is and always has been to source bits that GW refuses to include enough of in their kits. They act like they are reaching into their own private stash giving us extra bits. For instance, why do we have to source crisis suit weapons from 3d printed sellers? Would it really pain them so much to include a couple extra cents of plastic into an $80 kit?
I asked this same question in relation to the new CSM Terminator sprue which has over half of one of the sprues wasted on trophy racks. That area could have been used to include axes and plasma.
Maybe they're trying to tell you "Stop min-maxing your units!"? Ie, stop spamming chaincannon Havocs, use some Lascannons. Use more fists and combi-bolters on your terminators.
GW have repeatedly enforced that they are a model company first, gaming company second. They design models to look fun, immersive and diverse, which means NOT a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V of the same dude over and over.
If they want players to not min-max units they need to stop writing rules that massively encourage min-maxing units. As this thread makes obvious, a more cynical person is going to see it as a naked money grab ("buy enough of our kits to make the squad you actually want!") and most of those people are going to feel completely justified in looking for a cheaper alternative since that's a terrible business practice.
Non-tournament players who are just a bit more jaded are probably going to go ahead and build the more diverse squad and just proxy what they want since what's good now isn't going to be what's good after the next update.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/23 09:56:27
For me just starting out I thought it was amazing that the devastator box had 2 of every heavy weapon so I only needed 2 kits if I wanted to have a full set of heavy weapons. That was when I started though, everything had to be wysiwyg. Now it's more like "hey my cents are gonna proxy some bikes cause I'm gonna try a full squad of bikers for kicks". That being said I now prefer to model units for the cool factor and if they make the desired loadout I want then that's super
2019/08/23 10:21:23
Subject: Re:Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
I'd be lying if I said WYSIWYG hasn't impacted both my purchases and my list building. I have seven five-man Intercessor squads and another six five-man tac squads for the sake of different weapon loads, that's more than twice as many as I've ever actually fielded of either.
Deadshot wrote: GW have repeatedly enforced that they are a model company first, gaming company second. They design models to look fun, immersive and diverse, which means NOT a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V of the same dude over and over.
And whoever set that policy should be fired for incompetence. The market has spoken, and the market wants uniform squads and the model components to build them. GW needs to STFU with their nonsense excuses and delusions about "back in 1980 we played full WYSIWYG with random weapons because rolling a D6 to decide what your squad is armed with is FORGING A NARRATIVE" and provide what their customers are demanding.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/08/23 15:59:32
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Deadshot wrote: GW have repeatedly enforced that they are a model company first, gaming company second. They design models to look fun, immersive and diverse, which means NOT a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V of the same dude over and over.
And whoever set that policy should be fired for incompetence. The market has spoken, and the market wants uniform squads and the model components to build them. GW needs to STFU with their nonsense excuses and delusions about "back in 1980 we played full WYSIWYG with random weapons because rolling a D6 to decide what your squad is armed with is FORGING A NARRATIVE" and provide what their customers are demanding.
It's also hillarious if we consider the fact that even if GW would think Copy paste would be bad, then why the feth do the NEW csm Kits have the excact same loadout options as tacticals?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/08/23 16:46:59
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
redboi wrote: I noticed this as well. Just more nonsensical rules writing by GW. It's like someone wrote a rough draft for the lieutenant and then just sent it out like that without anyone taking a second glance at it to check for consistency
Or maybe they don't want characters able to charge turn 1?
Bruh they gave the Captain infiltrate. Clearly its not an issue. How is a lieutenant charging in with his squad with his S4 0AP attacks a problem? Meanwhile I can jump an 80pt warboss and obliterate a knight turn one
The problem is that his war gear is flipped. Arm him like an infiltrator and he has grav chutes like a reiver and can't infiltrate with the squad. Arm him like a reiver and he loses his grav chutes and can't drop with the reivers
Well, the reroll wounds could be considered an issue for drop podders and exploding wounds. Or they simply didn't want a carbon copy.
It doesn't really matter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/23 16:47:29
ing loot boxes. You know, the abusive business practice that is actually so far over the line that it's illegal in a growing list of countries?
