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Regardless of whether or not they're in the same universe, they do both have the warp etc.

So is it possible that, say, the undead etc. can work in Warhammer 40k in the same general way that it does in Warhammer fantasy? Does anyone think there's anything stopping that from happening? Or are there indeed some things very fundamentally different that would keep such things from being able to occur in 40k?

Once upon a time, there actually were rules for using 40K armies and WHFB armies on the table together (Warhammer Seige). So at that point, at least, the answer would have been 'yes'.


These days, GW have put a considerable effort into separating the two settings, with the Chaos Gods really being the only remaining link. With the current direction seeming to be steering more towards a shinier, more generic scifi setting rather than the previous 'Fantasy in Spaaaaaace!' vibe, it becomes increasingly non-viable to cross the two settings over. More overtly fantasy-style ideas just don't fit in there as well as they used to.

Yep, as late as 2nd edition 40K you could still field Fantasy models in 40K (mainly for Chaos). However that was the Old World, not the rather lame AoS setting.

 insaniak wrote:
Once upon a time, there actually were rules for using 40K armies and WHFB armies on the table together (Warhammer Seige). So at that point, at least, the answer would have been 'yes'.


These days, GW have put a considerable effort into separating the two settings, with the Chaos Gods really being the only remaining link. With the current direction seeming to be steering more towards a shinier, more generic scifi setting rather than the previous 'Fantasy in Spaaaaaace!' vibe, it becomes increasingly non-viable to cross the two settings over. More overtly fantasy-style ideas just don't fit in there as well as they used to.

not sure I agree with them going full on shinier sci-fi. there's plenty of fantasy elements in 40k still. I'd argue that 40k, has more accurately come into it's own as "Space Opera" that unique blending of magic, sci-fi whose most famous genre member is Star Wars

I thought about this recently, because I think the Steam Punk look of the Kharadron Overlords would make very playable squats.

The original Squat line was all about bikes, trikes and Living Ancestors; the Karadons would require a shift to dirigibles rather than bikes, but some of those models look like they're in power armour and almost all of them have guns or passable thunder hammers.

PenitentJake wrote:
I thought about this recently, because I think the Steam Punk look of the Kharadron Overlords would make very playable squats.

The original Squat line was all about bikes, trikes and Living Ancestors; the Karadons would require a shift to dirigibles rather than bikes, but some of those models look like they're in power armour and almost all of them have guns or passable thunder hammers.

Yeah, that was bandied around as an idea when the Karadron range was released...






I've seen various takes on it online. and it can work well.

Well lore wise their is a theory that oldhammer world is just a world cut from the galaxy of the 40 000 millenia by a warp storm where things go on on themselves. So an ork/inquisitorial/guard/necrons whatever fleet stranding randomly there would do.

As everything in tabletop, if you wish to do it you can do it with no official rule by houseruling something. I could see this get a fun outcome.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Well lore wise their is a theory that oldhammer world is just a world cut from the galaxy of the 40 000 millenia by a warp storm where things go on on themselves. .

It wasn't just a theory, it was outright said as much in one of the Rogue Trader books. The background has moved on since then, though, and the studio has been saying for the last 20 years now that the two settings are separate, just sharing some common elements.

I remember way back during the Albion campaign for Fantasy they added unique wargear that was obviously 40k stuff (a magic gauntlet that doubles your strength but makes you attack last, gee I wonder...)

So I think there was an amount of deliberately playing into the theory that the settings are connected.

Thanks for the replies, it definitely has me thinking on about this.

I suppose to get a bit more specific, what are the sources of *magic* in Warhammer fantasy/AoS/whatever? Is it *all* just based on the warp, or are there other sources unique to the setting that are absolutely NOT derived from the warp? (Since, iirc, the warp is basically the only source of it in 40k)

Wasn’t there some lizardmen relic that got signals from outer space or something? Also the gates that collapsed at the northern and southern poles of the Warhammer world could have been webway gates that collapsed due to slaaneshes birth maybe?

Yeah, at one point Amazons could have boltguns as well.

Those were all just fun little easter eggs, though, rather than actual links between the games.

So there is a bit of confusion here, first off GW has not been trying to seperate the universes for the last 20 years, one person at one games day (2006 IIRC) stated it and information post GD 2006 has directly contradicted that statement, most recently the Warhammer fantasy liber chaotica turning up in the 40k universe, so there are still little snippets that appear here and there.

to be clear the universes are not connect, the warp exists between them and they cannot interact, things slip through though such as weapons, deamons etc.


As for your original question, yes anything that happens in WHF can theoretically happen in 40k, 40k has soothsayers, necromancers and wizards but they are just psykers of various categories.

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
Regardless of whether or not they're in the same universe, they do both have the warp etc.

So is it possible that, say, the undead etc. can work in Warhammer 40k in the same general way that it does in Warhammer fantasy? Does anyone think there's anything stopping that from happening? Or are there indeed some things very fundamentally different that would keep such things from being able to occur in 40k?

Well, I don't know exactly how Undead work in AoS, but in 40K you also have Zombies (Poxwalkers among others) at least. Necrons are basically Tomb Kings. And Thousand Sons are... also Tomb Kings I guess

Snakebite Orks or Feral Orks would be Fantasy Orks without any change necessary (they even have boar riders).

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
Regardless of whether or not they're in the same universe, they do both have the warp etc.

So is it possible that, say, the undead etc. can work in Warhammer 40k in the same general way that it does in Warhammer fantasy? Does anyone think there's anything stopping that from happening? Or are there indeed some things very fundamentally different that would keep such things from being able to occur in 40k?

Well, I don't know exactly how Undead work in AoS, but in 40K you also have Zombies (Poxwalkers among others) at least. Necrons are basically Tomb Kings. And Thousand Sons are... also Tomb Kings I guess

Snakebite Orks or Feral Orks would be Fantasy Orks without any change necessary (they even have boar riders).

I just read into it on the wiki (can't believe I've never done so over all the years) https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Winds_of_Magic
And apparently ALL magics etc come from the winds of magic which is, of course, the warp. Necromancy just being one dark aspect of those winds of magic. Huge +1 in terms of the argument that all which is possible in Warhammer fantasy is possible in 40k.

I'm trying to look into things like the afterlife itself in Warhammer fantasy, and the different realms within... But what do you all think? Does this solidify the answer, as it already stands?

 insaniak wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Well lore wise their is a theory that oldhammer world is just a world cut from the galaxy of the 40 000 millenia by a warp storm where things go on on themselves. .

It wasn't just a theory, it was outright said as much in one of the Rogue Trader books. The background has moved on since then, though, and the studio has been saying for the last 20 years now that the two settings are separate, just sharing some common elements.

Ok thanks I didn't know it used to be even confirmed. I obviously was not around back then

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, I don't know exactly how Undead work in AoS, but in 40K you also have Zombies (Poxwalkers among others) at least. Necrons are basically Tomb Kings. And Thousand Sons are... also Tomb Kings I guess

Except these are not zombies. These are people possessed by Nurgle disease. About as much difference as between 17th century folk zombie, product of evil magic, and modern Hollywood one, created by science. As far as we know, nothing resembling AoS winds of magic exists in 40K, warp is one, not divided between 8 specific kinds of warp stuff. There are no animated skeletons or statues, no vampires, no ex-mortal gods, no dragons, no nothing.

Also, while technically 40K and AoS daemons are supposed to be the same, which is why they use same models, the AoS daemons suck. A bunch of spearmen in rags can stab a bloodthirster to death, good luck doing that in 40K. This is pretty much one of iconic bits of Fantasy art, just try to imagine 40K guardsmen clubbing KoS with butts of their rifles out of the trench:

So, just to point it out, the Galaxy is enormous. If there’s an element fluff-wise you’d like to play with from Fantasy, in the 40k universe, it’s just your imagination to make it happen.

Beastmen as Guardsmen, Minotaurs as Ogryn, Centaur type critters as rough riders... Lizardmen as Orks, Skinks as Gretchin, bigger Dino’s as Dreadnaughts... Vampire counts as Eldar, using the “tough stuff” as Wraithguard? Maybe better as Necrons?

Point is, most models would have a reasonable counts-as between Fantasy and 40k, if you imagine Mutated versions of humans, or technology replacing magic (necrons) such creatures likely exist somewhere on a backwater feral world.

Besides the Chaos gods, since Eldar/Elf gods like Isha and Khaine also exist in both universes (though Khaine is in pieces in AOS and Isha is Nurgle's lab rat in 40K), I would love to see Morghur enter the 40K universe as well.

Irbis wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, I don't know exactly how Undead work in AoS, but in 40K you also have Zombies (Poxwalkers among others) at least. Necrons are basically Tomb Kings. And Thousand Sons are... also Tomb Kings I guess

Except these are not zombies. These are people possessed by Nurgle disease. About as much difference as between 17th century folk zombie, product of evil magic, and modern Hollywood one, created by science. As far as we know, nothing resembling AoS winds of magic exists in 40K, warp is one, not divided between 8 specific kinds of warp stuff. There are no animated skeletons or statues, no vampires, no ex-mortal gods, no dragons, no nothing.

Also, while technically 40K and AoS daemons are supposed to be the same, which is why they use same models, the AoS daemons suck. A bunch of spearmen in rags can stab a bloodthirster to death, good luck doing that in 40K. This is pretty much one of iconic bits of Fantasy art, just try to imagine 40K guardsmen clubbing KoS with butts of their rifles out of the trench:

Spoiler:

greatbigtree wrote:So, just to point it out, the Galaxy is enormous. If there’s an element fluff-wise you’d like to play with from Fantasy, in the 40k universe, it’s just your imagination to make it happen.

Beastmen as Guardsmen, Minotaurs as Ogryn, Centaur type critters as rough riders... Lizardmen as Orks, Skinks as Gretchin, bigger Dino’s as Dreadnaughts... Vampire counts as Eldar, using the “tough stuff” as Wraithguard? Maybe better as Necrons?

Point is, most models would have a reasonable counts-as between Fantasy and 40k, if you imagine Mutated versions of humans, or technology replacing magic (necrons) such creatures likely exist somewhere on a backwater feral world.

I saw that about the 8 different kinds of magic in Fantasy/AoS, but all of that *still* is derived from the warp. And in 40k, the warp effects different areas of space/realspace/warpspace/etc. differently. From what I understand, the way it fundamentally works in 40k is such that you end up with worlds that DO have worlds, sectors, continents, or even buildings that act and behave in certain ways, with certain rules of their own. Right? So to me there is nothing particularly *special* (GREAT though it may be) about Warhammer Fantasy/AoS having 8 specific kinds of magic. If anything, it just reinforces the idea that all such things WOULD be possible.

In answer to you greatbigtree, I'm not actually trying to just rip an army from Warhammer fantasy and add guns, though i love the idea of seeing fights like that. I've always wondered if Warhammer fantasy/AoS magic etc. was generally *potentially* applicable to 40k, but I'm deciding to finally ask that because, specifically, I want to see about making an Imperial army slanted towards undeath, and even dabbling in some powers OF it. Being able to draw heavy inspiration from some of the necromantic powers seen in Warhammer Fantasy/AoS is the absolute perfect way for me to be able to do that.

(Today I heard that Necromunda, which is ironically where my campaign is to be set, actually had *real* undead in it, btw)

Since you asked then, does anyone have any thoughts on that, in particular? Undeath in 40k *outside* of your run-of-the-mill nurgle zombies? I.e. spirits etc.?

So, to be clear, you're looking to homebrew a new codex? Or are you looking to "counts as" an existing codex and use "counts as" models to represent units from that counts-as codex?

In either case, the only real limit is what the people playing with you will put up with... for lack of a better term.

 Netsurfer733 wrote:

In answer to you greatbigtree, I'm not actually trying to just rip an army from Warhammer fantasy and add guns, though i love the idea of seeing fights like that. I've always wondered if Warhammer fantasy/AoS magic etc. was generally *potentially* applicable to 40k, but I'm deciding to finally ask that because, specifically, I want to see about making an Imperial army slanted towards undeath, and even dabbling in some powers OF it. Being able to draw heavy inspiration from some of the necromantic powers seen in Warhammer Fantasy/AoS is the absolute perfect way for me to be able to do that.

(Today I heard that Necromunda, which is ironically where my campaign is to be set, actually had *real* undead in it, btw)

Since you asked then, does anyone have any thoughts on that, in particular? Undeath in 40k *outside* of your run-of-the-mill nurgle zombies? I.e. spirits etc.?

I'd go the Chaos route with your idea.
Night Lords could use some of the Vampire Counts units, ghouls as Cultists, giant bats as furies, Vargheists as Daemon prince, varghulfs as giant chaos spawn. And Imo it would also fit their fluff, so these units would represent tortured or humiliated humans.
Zombies in 40K are always Nurgle creations (on Necromunda, too), but it's not too hard to ally them to Night Lords despite the latter usually hating the Chaos gods.
Renegades & Heretics also offer a huge pool of units.

A totally different take could be some Vampire Count inspired Imperial Guard allied with Blood Angels. Blood Angels are the actual Space Vampires in 40K, but GW didn't crank up that theme as much as they did the werewolf aspect of Space Wolves, so it's a little more subtle.

The main separation isn't so much of possibility (basically anything goes in either universe) but of genre. The expectations of each game's genre make certain elements easier or harder to accept.

AoS, being broadly Fantasy, is steeped in supernatural mysteries. There are gods, spirits, wizards, curses, etc. You don't need to explain how a necromancer manages to animate the dead, because it's magic. You don't need to analyse how a vampire's powers work, because they simply do.

40K, being broadly Space Opera, strives to give the impression that its phenomena are explicable. Plague Zombies aren't just the walking dead, they have a disease that alters their physiology and behaviour into something that just so happens to mimic the zombies of pop culture. Psykers aren't wizards who do magic spells, they're an expression of unique genetics that gives them conscious control over the energies of the Warp, a co-existent parallel dimension with different physical laws. And so on.

So to transition something from AoS to 40K, the only real trick is to reframe it in more genre-appropriate terms. So it's not a Vampire necromancer leading an army of zombies - that's far too out of place. But a mad tech-priest who self-experimented with forbidden Biologis techniques to extend his life for thousands of years but, due to an unforeseen side-effect, has to be sustained by a specific chemical only found in human blood... and whose technical masterpiece is the Galvanic Collar, a device capable of hijacking a subject's nervous system and moving them around like a puppet, even for a considerable time after the subject has died... well that's just dandy. It's all about how much effort you put into explaining things.

Incidentally, if I was going to use vampires and zombies in 40K, I'd run them as Necrons.

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
I saw that about the 8 different kinds of magic in Fantasy/AoS, but all of that *still* is derived from the warp. And in 40k, the warp effects different areas of space/realspace/warpspace/etc. differently. From what I understand, the way it fundamentally works in 40k is such that you end up with worlds that DO have worlds, sectors, continents, or even buildings that act and behave in certain ways, with certain rules of their own. Right? So to me there is nothing particularly *special* (GREAT though it may be) about Warhammer Fantasy/AoS having 8 specific kinds of magic. If anything, it just reinforces the idea that all such things WOULD be possible.

I am not opposed to the idea (though chaos being divided into 8 different, very precisely defined and actually scientifically researchable domains is a bit weird), as kadeton noted, it's the question of theme. Warp as described in 40K would need a lot of changes to do half of the stuff it does in Fantasy/AoS.

Though, now that I think about it, it's ironic Fantasy/AoS warp follows clear rules and does have user manuals / universities with cathedrals devoted to study of its aspects, while the 40K one is pretty much 'a wizard did it'. It kind of feels like they got it backwards and maybe they should be swapped. Dunno.

 kadeton wrote:
Incidentally, if I was going to use vampires and zombies in 40K, I'd run them as Necrons.

Why not Dark Eldar? They fit both aspects thematically much more IMO, Necrons are more of a skeleton/mummy side of undead.

One aspect of 40k undead that people always forget is that at least in the 30k era, a sub faction of Iron Hands practiced a form of cybernetic reanimation. They'd take dead Marines and jazz them up with augmetics that got their bodies and brains running again. The Marines were definitely dead, but could still fight and think, if not at full capacity. I want to say the first short story was called the Keys of Hel and that it played a small part in Deathfire.

I've always considered doing a really grim Iron Hands force with lots of augmetics, exposed bone and damaged armor. I'd include a single, pristine Techmarine who is the "necromancer" bringing them all back to "life" after each battle. I might actually do this once the Iron Hands book launches.

The first Necron Codex (i.e. Oldcrons) suggested using a WHFB Lizardmen army to represent the degenerate descendants of the Old Ones, all but implying Old Ones = Slann. Of course, whether such an army would be viable without major modifications is another matter.

In the Horus Heresy novels, one of the Cabal is called Gahet. He is described as a powerful reptilian psyker who comes from a race older than the Eldar. Based on the description, he could easily be a Slann or "old one".

Iracundus wrote:
The first Necron Codex (i.e. Oldcrons) suggested using a WHFB Lizardmen army to represent the degenerate descendants of the Old Ones, all but implying Old Ones = Slann. Of course, whether such an army would be viable without major modifications is another matter.

That was actually one of the key differences between the two settings introduced over the years - in 40K, the Slann are the Old Ones. In WHFB, the Slann were the servants of the Old Ones. While they started with a similar core (Slann were actually present in Rogue Trader, and then disappeared for 2nd edition), they developed in different directions in the two settings.

Just as 40K Orks became a semi-sentient fungus, a concept that was never introduced in WHFB as far as I'm aware...

The Old Ones/Slann difference actually isn't necessarily as great as it might appear on the surface.

The original RT era Old Ones = Old Slann had the Slann regressing to a primitive state. To such primitive descendants, the achievements and magical technology of their ancestors would have seemed god-like. The same can hold true for the WHFB Slann, who may be classing themselves as servants of the god-like Old Ones, unaware that the Old Ones are their ancestors. Nobody except the1st generation Slann in WHFB ever saw the Old Ones, so their purported appearance was just a matter of hearsay and speculation by the younger Slann and the 1st generation Slann AFAIK never shed light on the issue. For example, Chotec, the Lizardmen Lord of the Sun, might have been an Old Slann with an interest in heat and plasma technology.

Having the Old Ones be the Slann adds to the tragedy of their fall. Their gods are just their ancestors, the secretive upper management of their civilization, something forgotten as they degenerate into rote ritual and superstition. They lose not only their powerful civilization but also their identity and their own awareness of their potential.

Just read an article from the french lore web site "Taran", which is dedicated to rogue trader/ 2nd edition lore, about chaos monolith. The crossover in that article was obvious so I'd say this further backs up the idea that it is entirely possible!