Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So in addition to everything else, GW announced there's a legends category which won't be further supported. In the official statement they all but encouraged tournaments not to add them in. So do you think the non GW tournaments will allow these units or not?

Also what units are they going to place on this list?.

Its everything that was in the Index that didnt make it into a codex.

And you and I had very different interpretations about what GW is doing with Legends. How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.

From what they said in the article, they won't be "recommending" that these units be used in tournaments. It will be interesting to see if and when they'll begin applying this "recommendation" to their own tournaments. The units they mentioned that will be placed on the list are units that only have Index entries right now. I fully expect to see other units added to the list over the coming years though.

I think they were complaining about not being part of the "overall balance"(whatever GW's definition is) going forward.

chaos0xomega wrote:
How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.

Not to speak for OP, but he might be referring to the fact that they won't receive ongoing balance support after their initial move to Legends.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its everything that was in the Index that didnt make it into a codex.

And you and I had very different interpretations about what GW is doing with Legends. How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.

Provided that nothing else makes it onto the list.

I imagine there's a lot of things beyond you . Any further rule adjustments are not going to be added to this unit. So any further changes like we saw in the space marine codex might not apply to them. Now you can certainly use them in pickup games, which is fine for me. I won't ever have an issue. But I also wonder if any of those legends units will make it to the next edition?

Look at the archon or the autarch. Both of those models get gutted from the move from index to codex. A lot of people could be disappointed if their carefully converted model is openly discouraged from being used or misses out on any new rules the eldar could receive

I bet they are not recommending those units because they want us to be buying the new stuff.

As players lose access to those kits and pieces, its not very fair I think.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I bet they are not recommending those units because they want us to be buying the new stuff.

I think it's simplier then that. basicly GW's not going to be factoring these things into balance passes etc thus if you're in a play enviroment where TFG is going to find and abuse every broken unit he can then you might not want to use these things.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I bet they are not recommending those units because they want us to be buying the new stuff.

Yes, because those models were killing soooo many sales. They don't need to kill off old models to make money.

Yeah it's just a bummer for a lot of classic models. The chaos characters on demonic mounts were always great conversions and its kind of sad to see them being moved closer to the chopping block

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I bet they are not recommending those units because they want us to be buying the new stuff.

Yes, because those models were killing soooo many sales. They don't need to kill off old models to make money.

If my army contains 500 pts of models GW no longer makes and I want to play in a tournament that doesn't allow those models, am I maybe going to need to spend some money to get 500 pts of different models that the tournament DOES allow?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I bet they are not recommending those units because they want us to be buying the new stuff.

Yes, because those models were killing soooo many sales. They don't need to kill off old models to make money.

If my army contains 500 pts of models GW no longer makes and I want to play in a tournament that doesn't allow those models, am I maybe going to need to spend some money to get 500 pts of different models that the tournament DOES allow?

You presuppose this is a problem for the majority of people. You're free to count the number of index models at tournaments currently.

As an Ork player, I'm not surprised but at the same time pretty miffed regardless because it means we have to take entirely inferior versions of our usual HQ's simply because of GW's policy of "No models, no rules". The dumbest part is that the Ork Warboss on Warbike DOES have a model, even if its FW, so it makes no sense that it was never translated over into the new codex. I get we have the Wartrike, but it is definitively not the same, both rules wise and model wise. Similarly, it wouldn't have been that hard for GW to promote people converting a Big Mek with KFF from the Nob kit (that's what I did) since it's already super similar to what they officially do with the Big Mek in MA kit. To add insult to injury, until GW release an official kit and ruleset for Warbosses in Mega Armour, our only WB in MA is Ghazzy. Somehow Big Meks and Nobz have access to it but Warbosses don't. Seems legit.

Biggest loss for me will be my Ravenwing Chaplain and Librarian on bike. Granted, I don't play them tournament wise anyway so shouldn't be too much of a heartbreak. I just built a damn techmarine on bike though for my RW.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I bet they are not recommending those units because they want us to be buying the new stuff.

Yes, because those models were killing soooo many sales. They don't need to kill off old models to make money.

If my army contains 500 pts of models GW no longer makes and I want to play in a tournament that doesn't allow those models, am I maybe going to need to spend some money to get 500 pts of different models that the tournament DOES allow?

You presuppose this is a problem for the majority of people. You're free to count the number of index models at tournaments currently.

I never once said it was a huge swath of people.

Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:

Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex

150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.

I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though

bananathug wrote:
Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:

Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex

150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.

I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though

Unless you are using them in tournaments, you should still get to play with them since they will have points. Not really a big deal.

bananathug wrote:
Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:

Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex

150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.

I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though

If you knowingly kit-bashed in 8th you did so knowing this was coming.

bananathug wrote:
Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:

Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex

150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.

I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though

Yeah. This is unfortunate news for those who've been using a lot of Index only datasheets in tournaments. I'm sure that's not too many people, but that doesn't lessen the pain for those who are in that group. The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.

I wouldn't take this as a sign that Primaris bikes are coming any time soon though. Only those characters on bikes are affected for now. Regular marine bikes are still very much part of the codex.

bananathug wrote:
Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:

Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex

150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.

I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though

captain on a bike is still in codex space marines.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its everything that was in the Index that didnt make it into a codex.

And you and I had very different interpretations about what GW is doing with Legends. How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.

Because the support that matters is ongoing points/errata updates to deal with balance issues and tournament legality. By dumping them in the "not tournament legal" pile GW has just guaranteed that most players won't be able to use them, since even the people who don't go to tournaments often find that tournament rules are the standard in their local community and aren't going to invest in something they can only use with special permission.

The game isn't the same as the one many of us started with but at least they are getting rules support somewhere for some of those models.

I mean I know some of us play non stop tournaments but lets be honest, usually the new hotness is much better than the old busted no matter how much we love old busted.

Speaking for myself I keep up on tournaments but I haven't played in them in years. I love the feeling and the nuance of the game in a casual competitive point of view with my friends. So me losing access to this means nothing to me, I didn't even rebase all my old marines as honestly, they've never seen a tournament and won't ever do so. So let the index units flow in the legends.

I just feel bad for those who won't let people use them in pick up games because it's not " tournament " that would be beyond lame and really outside of why I started playing the game which was the feeling of the story, played out on the board between the factions with outrageous turns of fate one way or the other.

Don't start the doom and gloom, it's not as bad as it sounds for the index units the goal of the game is to win, the point of the game is to have fun and this all helps with that just not in a tournament setting.


Edit: If anyone doesn't let you use your index units, just play a perfectly legal ball busting list and show them how fun that " balanced and legal " list is to play against. Then ask again, I promise you there are no index options less fun than a perfectly legal knight list, or a perfectly legal hammer of a guard list and both of those as well as many more tournament mainstays will be so much less fun, than a chaplain on a bike, or some rough riders. The real joke is people thinking the balanced choices are somehow better than the legends units as far as having a good game. GW doesn't balance, it just juggles nerfs to drain money from one army to another and some units to others. They don't want balance, just controlled imbalance and power creep to make the cash flow.

Am I missing something? I don't understand why people are getting upset about this - the way I'm reading it is a GOOD thing.

I actually own the Chaos Index but for a moment lets pretend that I don't, and I have that goofy Chaos Lord on Juggernaught from 2nd/3rd edition sitting in my army case unused. But alas! The codex has no such entry for him.

As it stands the index has been unavailable for quite some time now so I can't even BUY the rules for Chaos characters on Daemonic steeds even if I wanted to. Once they're released under Warhammer Legends I'll have access to the rules and the points costs for those units.

If it has the same keywords and options as it currently has in the Index (which I have no reason to think it won't) then I can easily fit it into my Chaos Space Marine army, where he can still benefit from the Stratagems, Relics, Warlord Traits, Legion Traits and Hateful Assault. All things that are NOT included in his datasheet, but granted via the codex and associated errata.

So that brings me to 2 possible points that tournament players might have an issue with:

1. The points cost won't be revised. Is this really a problem though? How often have GW revised points costs on Index-Only models since the full codex releases? As far as I know Chapter Approved 2017 was the only one that addressed the indexes, by 2018 most armies had their codex already. You can hardly get mad at GW now for outright saying they're not changing the points on index units when they already haven't changed the points on index units for over a year.

2. That they recommended not using Legends units in organised play. So what? There's already tournaments that are banning Index units, or at least considering it. Also, it's not even a codified "organised play suggestion" like the rule of 2/34 or the detachment limit. Maybe it will be when they release the ruleset, but even then it's entirely up to the TO and the community if they want to adhere to it or not.

At the end of the day they're units that already weren't getting any support, with no current models, and no rule source widely available (not counting piracy here - each to their own). Now we can get their rules again, and they're not going away.

I do feel for DA players using biker characters in Ravenwing, it seems really stupid to me that they introduced a character on a Land Speeder but didn't bring over the bikers...

I may have missed something, but did they say what format the Legends data would take? I'm assuming it'll be a free web page or PDF but I can't find a solid statement one way or another.

There are a lot of sheep who do anything in society. Some won't ever stray beyond what they feel to be " illegal " regardless of how dumb the idea is.

I think the legends is actually over all a good thing. Some don't consider it to be good because it means they won't be tournament legal and some players will just screech and run to their safety place if you say that to them. Even though GWs balance is about the sickest joke I know.

So reasonable people will allow them, unreasonable people won't.

Like when my DA had outdated wargear and GW errated and I crap you not " You should ask your opponent if you can use the updated wargear, if they are good people they will allow it, if they don't, you can't make them but they should be better than that ".

We had years on years needing to be beg people to use the storm shield other chapters all had because they wouldn't just errata DA to have them. Some players even wouldn't allow it because, they didn't have to.

Special characters used to be able to only be used if you asked your opponent and he said yes. Many special characters were dead models in collections because some people just wouldn't allow it, wasn't legal. Didn't matter how weak they were.

Some players maybe haven't seen how absolutely lame people can be, that is why people are upset about it.

As if everyone is reasonable, it's totally ok, if they are as we've seen them to sometimes be, it'll still not be good. We've already had people talk of banning index units because it's not fair people have access to something they can't, even if that thing really isn't much good but a flavor unit.

There's actually something in the wording that nobody's commented yet. Legends status applies to models, so Kabalite Trueborn and Baron Sathonyx are out of luck.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
There's actually something in the wording that nobody's commented yet. Legends status applies to models, so Kabalite Trueborn and Baron Sathonyx are out of luck.

If Kabalite Trueborn and Hekatrix Bloodbrides were in the dex, they might be safe- they've always been represented by Kabalite and wych models.

Was Sathonyx actually in the index? He's never had a model.

Either way, we won't know for sure what gets rules and what doesn't until it's released.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
There's actually something in the wording that nobody's commented yet. Legends status applies to models, so Kabalite Trueborn and Baron Sathonyx are out of luck.

If Kabalite Trueborn and Hekatrix Bloodbrides were in the dex, they might be safe- they've always been represented by Kabalite and wych models.

Was Sathonyx actually in the index? He's never had a model.

Either way, we won't know for sure what gets rules and what doesn't until it's released.

Trueborn and Bloodbrides were in the index, I don't know about special characters actually. I don't actually own any indices myself.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.

Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.