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 Daedalus81 wrote:

redboi wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
as an ork player it is kind of infuriating that a lot of our HQs are index only and now will be seemingly nto for use in tournaments when our best HQ is an index only option.

It's not even that. It's "a couple HQs that are more point efficient and/or safer than the codex options". The wartrike IS the new warboss on a bike despite desires to deliver the relic klaw as cheaply and easily as possible, because mathammer tells you it will efficiently hurt a knight.

He does not look like a Warboss

Quite debatable when this guy is a warboss:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ork-Warboss-with-Big-Choppa

nor does he he have Warboss rules.

So, use the Warboss on foot. In a horde melee army that gets reroll any dice for charging adding infantry advance and charge bubble to a 14" move model up ends making it far too easy to just push a giant blob of models into someone's face. Or, if your goal is to have a low-effort way to deliver S12 rerollable wound attacks to a knight more easily than a smash captain.

Let's face it. If the wartrike had the relic klaw this wouldn't even be a conversation.

just to point out here the only warboss kit GW sells doe snot have an option for a powerclaw either so... liek using current official GW models you cannot take the kustom claw outside a big mek in mega armor.

Honestly I take the warboss on a bike even in a horde list because the warboss rules for move advance and charge are really important to us. the biek insures that I dont' fetch it all up by rolling to low on the warboss run and having to daisy chain ork boyz back to him to get to still charge. also if i have 120 boys maybe 2 groups can move and not need to advance to charge, but another group does... that biek lets me get there to let them do that.

 G00fySmiley wrote:


Honestly I take the warboss on a bike even in a horde list because the warboss rules for move advance and charge are really important to us. the biek insures that I dont' fetch it all up by rolling to low on the warboss run and having to daisy chain ork boyz back to him to get to still charge. also if i have 120 boys maybe 2 groups can move and not need to advance to charge, but another group does... that biek lets me get there to let them do that.

White Scars get charge & advance, but rerolls to charges are hard to come by. BT get reroll charges, but no advance and charge.

If you find lack of coverage for boyz then a second warboss would be necessary. A 6" tail is two models out of 30. I know the desire is to have the easier and more flexible unit, but that doesn't seem to be the dynamic GW wants to balance around (yet).

If GW really wanted the game balanced, it would be. They don't want balance they want controlled imbalance to believe otherwise is to assume they are the worst at their jobs.

If they wanted real balance they'd trim all the options and have the armies all be as close to each other game play wise as possible as only then would skill really be the only deciding factor.

You don't factor in balance by tossing out a million bloated formations, strats, relics , traits all the allies , etc etc. All it does is breed into the system a zillion ways for the game to be very much imbalanced, and so it is. The game will never be a balanced game of skill, it's not what it's about no matter how hard some want to feel it is or will be.

It's a fun experience played with interesting models and enjoyable rules for fun while trying to win.

The index options were already being quietly phased by the community itself because people just delight in saying no to each other, all GW did is say " It's ok Jimmy, you can tell them no now, we said its ok " so now there isn't even a moment of shame about it.

Personally once it drops all my lists with be matched play legends lists, even if I take none of the legends models. I endorse most people taking this stance for pick up games. You want to be safe from all the scary bad fun old models, just hit up a tournament there you will be safe to be crushed by whatever the OP broken mess of the month is without hiding from warboss bikers doing donuts on your armys face.

Carefull now Angry, that position is not very popular.

If GW were doing this Legends thing in the best possible way, they wouldn't need that special category. They'd just have another "way to play" going beyond matched, explicitly for Tournament play. Their approach makes using these older models the exception to the rules, rather than making Tournament play the separate and distinctive way to play it is.

These different units are becoming their own category that will be excluded by everyone... as communities are too often driven by precedent set in the Tournament scene, even if they play friendlier. If this Legends thing were more ideal it would mean these units could finally get rules and point value more truly representative of their concept and capabilities with fewer point costs being driven by efficiency and the desire to sell... and less eventual down playing and nerfing of rules to sell newer toys.

I want to point out while we're talking about units in indexes being rolled into this special category, no one has really mentioned that almost all the FW units are in their own indexes. So wouldn't that imply those expensive models would also get rolled into Legends?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Carefull now Angry, that position is not very popular.

I'll take my chances, but thanks for the heads up.

@mythos: Chances are high that atleast all non good selling fw 40k lists that got oop get moved there.
Basically elysians, eldar Corsairs and ofcourse renegades and heretics.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Carefull now Angry, that position is not very popular.

I'll take my chances, but thanks for the heads up.

Btw i do agree with your sentiment.

I could tell even if sometimes you have to fight alone, I do see allies are out there who feel the same, like yourself.

Not alone. Legends, Index or whatever term they revolve into, are always going to be welcome at my table too.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I could tell even if sometimes you have to fight alone, I do see allies are out there who feel the same, like yourself.

You see my issue is less the inherent unbalance of a game this vast.

My issue is how people are accepting often the blatant lie that Gw even attempts to give everyone equal long pikes, when in reality half the factions get foam equipment mostly whilest others get fully masterpieces of hallberds.

And also the fact that Gw doesn't even attempt to actually do something about it.

As for ca. GW is the only company that gets (mostly) away with selling a balance Patch.

I think these past few posts, have had the most solidarity I may ever see on here, thank you both. It has restored some faith in me for us all.

Agreed, and some people need to bring light to the fact GW peddles lies given with a smile. More often than I would like.

Sterling191 wrote:
Not alone. Legends, Index or whatever term they revolve into, are always going to be welcome at my table too.

Hear, hear!

GW have made a right mess here.

1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".
2. Many players (myself for example) play with competitive tournament rules even in casual games.
3. Since the points are never going to be updated again the models are not actually supported forever because sooner or later their points will be completely out of sync with everything else.
4. It reduces the flexibility of many units. This makes the game less dynamic and much more boring.
5. It is not in keeping with the fluff that there is no MA Warboss outside of Ghazzy, yet Meks and Nobs have access to Mega Armour. It does not make any sense that an Autarch, the pinnacle of Aeldari mortal warfare that have mastered every aspect, take the same weapons every time they go to war. A Warboss can't jump or steal a bike but a Boy can? Rubbish.

I really dislike this ethos of "here is your model, you get 0 flexibility because it must take everything it is supplied with on the model and that is that". It kills fun kitbashing and modelling conversions. It kills the fun tactical choices that 40k was once known for. It is only a negative. Beyond the obvious (money), I see no possible reason why I can't elect to take a Big Mek with a KFF and no Mega Armour. The model I spent hours converting and painting has been rendered unplayable by GW. Luckily I used the FW Warboss on Bike model so I'm guessing I can play him as Zhadsnark. Otherwise that's another 15, 20 hours wasted. There are countless other players with Warbosses on Bikes, Painboyz on Bikes, Big Meks on Bikes, MA Warbosses etc etc etc

It's a slap in the face of every one of these players and they/we are right to be pissed. At least we all know how Dark Eldar players feel now though, right?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".

Probably. Or the tournament organisers could think for themselves.

2. Many players (myself for example) play with competitive tournament rules even in casual games.

Well, you know, how about you don't?

3. Since the points are never going to be updated again the models are not actually supported forever because sooner or later their points will be completely out of sync with everything else.

This might be a problem in the long run. I hope they review them at least during edition changes.

It's a slap in the face of every one of these players and they/we are right to be pissed. At least we all know how Dark Eldar players feel now though, right?

De got it shity indeed, however eldar Corsairs, ohhh boi, a local guy has some nice words reserved for that situation.

The legends units can be still be used in competitive games. I may use some real stinker units, but I always play to win as hard as I can. There isn't a difference to me in play style.

I won't go, " Oh, Legends can be here, I just don't care now, the game is so unbalanced now, how can I take it seriously ? "

Competitive or not is how you play, at least to me. Why would I deny someone their warboss on bike, but happily play against a full knight list ?

How can you deny a full knight list, or OP cheese list if its legal but then deny a legend unit because it's illegal ? Is there some rule I'm missing that forces you to play certain things but blocks out others ? As long as they have points, they'd be allowable on my board. If some combo utterly wrecks the game I'll have to assume my adult gamer friends will work it out with me regardless of who it benefits. That is assuming even that any of these issues could even spring up, when I really doubt they will.

The same way you don't take ball busting lists against your friends in every game, we can do more than we give ourselves credit for. We don't need GW to spoon feed us what we should and should not allow if they have points, and rules for the game, game on. Legends all the way.

You will become a Legend for allowing legends.

 aka_mythos wrote:
If GW were doing this Legends thing in the best possible way, they wouldn't need that special category. They'd just have another "way to play" going beyond matched, explicitly for Tournament play. Their approach makes using these older models the exception to the rules, rather than making Tournament play the separate and distinctive way to play it is.

These different units are becoming their own category that will be excluded by everyone... as communities are too often driven by precedent set in the Tournament scene, even if they play friendlier. If this Legends thing were more ideal it would mean these units could finally get rules and point value more truly representative of their concept and capabilities with fewer point costs being driven by efficiency and the desire to sell... and less eventual down playing and nerfing of rules to sell newer toys.

I want to point out while we're talking about units in indexes being rolled into this special category, no one has really mentioned that almost all the FW units are in their own indexes. So wouldn't that imply those expensive models would also get rolled into Legends?

This is GW being as they always have when it comes to FW, pretend it doesn't exsist and hope everyone forgets about the other part of the company.

Whats more worryibg is the obly Announcement FW were allowed to make was we'll find out a big announcement in 2 weeks time.

Like seriously who actually is in control of the communications department as they need sacked.

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".

Probably. Or the tournament organisers could think for themselves.

Yep, they could also "think for themselves" and do away with the whole dice rolling mechanic in favour of players having a slapping contest. They will stick to the suggested rules exclusively.

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
2. Many players (myself for example) play with competitive tournament rules even in casual games.

Well, you know, how about you don't?

...because it's how my friends and gaming group prefer how to play?

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
3. Since the points are never going to be updated again the models are not actually supported forever because sooner or later their points will be completely out of sync with everything else.

This might be a problem in the long run. I hope they review them at least during edition changes.

They've literally said they won't be updated.

GW wrote:Once we’ve assigned them their final points, they won’t be part of that ongoing balance review – and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

...because it's how my friends and gaming group prefer how to play?

Then advocate for a change. Are they your frtiends? Besides, you're probably not the only one whose units end up in the Legends. The rules will exist, and they can be easily used if only the players choose to do so.

They've literally said they won't be updated.

Which means they wont be in CA. But if there would be an edition change with significant rule alterations they would need to redo the Legend unit rules anyway. Also, couple of units being a tiny bit more out such in their points than the rest is hardly a big deal. It's not like GW's point balance is particularly exact science to begin with.

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

...because it's how my friends and gaming group prefer how to play?

Then advocate for a change. Are they your frtiends? Besides, you're probably not the only one whose units end up in the Legends. The rules will exist, and they can be easily used if only the players choose to do so.

They've literally said they won't be updated.

Which means they wont be in CA. But if there would be an edition change with significant rule alterations they would need to redo the Legend unit rules anyway. Also, couple of units being a tiny bit more out such in their points than the rest is hardly a big deal. It's not like GW's point balance is particularly exact science to begin with.

Let's be real their claim of infinite support is bollocks the size of the Gotthard (a huge fething Mountain area wise).
Next edition top in two editions legend units will be dead.

For the community they will mostlikely die on arrival of this rule.

 Crimson wrote:
Then advocate for a change. Are they your frtiends? Besides, you're probably not the only one whose units end up in the Legends. The rules will exist, and they can be easily used if only the players choose to do so

I don't think you understand. We choose to play how tournaments play. I dislike the fact that GW have decided to make many of my favourite units unplayable in this regard. Yes I could advocate for change. I could also advocate for a slapping contest instead of rolling dice, it doesn't mean that our group will go for it.

Which means they wont be in CA. But if there would be an edition change with significant rule alterations they would need to redo the Legend unit rules anyway. Also, couple of units being a tiny bit more out such in their points than the rest is hardly a big deal. It's not like GW's point balance is particularly exact science to begin with.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that "legends" will be looked at ever again after their final points costing. There is also no evidence to suggest that anything will be looked at again if/when the edition changes. Finally there is no evidence to suggest that it will be a "couple" of units that are a "tiny bit more out". It will be tens of units that could use an entirely different pointing structure to future game structures. We could be playing 1000 or 100 point games as standard in the future and these units are pointed for 2000 point matches.

I find it incredible that anyone can look at this marketing article and believe that GW are actually supporting any of these units. This is simply step 1 of the squatting process.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Let's be real their claim of infinite support is bollocks the size of the Gotthard (a huge fething Mountain area wise).
Next edition top in two editions legend units will be dead.

Well of course it is not infinite in reality, but they were pretty adamant about FOREVER. I think they mean to commit to it. Aren't all the FB legacy rules for AOS still in existence?

For the community they will mostlikely die on arrival of this rule.

Again. If you refuse to use the rules provided for you, then it's on you.

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Let's be real their claim of infinite support is bollocks the size of the Gotthard (a huge fething Mountain area wise).
Next edition top in two editions legend units will be dead.

Well of course it is not infinite in reality, but they were pretty adamant about FOREVER. I think they mean to commit to it. Aren't all the FB legacy rules for AOS still in existence?

For the community they will mostlikely die on arrival of this rule.

Again. If you refuse to use the rules provided for you, then it's on you.

I won't and can't doesn't mean that i can enforce them though now doesn't it.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We choose to play how tournaments play.

Well, then you have no room to complain. It's your own fault that you refuse to use these rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I quote myself from earlier in this same thread:

 Crimson wrote:

Ultimately your models will still be usable. Of course there is a huge segment of people who think that playing with toy soldiers is super serious business, and random games in a local store must follow the strictest possible tournament standards and thus will refuse to use these perfectly valid rules. I also expect at least half of those people will complain about units being removed, whilst in reality they have just been moved into Legends. Oh well, that's really not GWs fault.

Oh wow, it happened faster than I expected! People literally refuse to use these rules, then at the same breath complain that they cannot use these rules! Unbelievable!

I don't think anyone is saying this isn't a knife in the back with a smile from GW.

They phrased it in such a way to make it ok to deny the models.

Some are just saying we will allow them in our games and all you are doing by disallowing them is doing exactly what GW want which is us to limit ourselves and attack each other so they can look like " the good guy " while the bad guy is all of us saying no to each other. It's really quite clever of them and wrong at the same time.

As well saying getting people to accept legends is the same as exchanging dice for slapping contests is about as hyperbolic a comment as I'll ever read.


Accept Legends, don't do what GW wants you to do and fight back and think for yourself in regards to your games. They'll have rules, use them, they'll have points, use them. Don't cry GW took it all away and let group think rob you of your favorite models or units.

Thing is, I was fully expecting the Index option to just completely vanish, and that's it. So this is clearly preferable to that.

Sure, it would have been the best had they just kept all that stuff in the codices, but that ship had already sailed.

Overall, I think once the panic fades, Legends match play lists will be a thing. They just need people to actually have fun playing the game and not just slave their desires to tournament group think. The game wasn't a balance paradise before Legends was announced and it won't be any worse off with legends units are formalized.

Unless I'm missing all those index units dominating all the tournaments out there.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
GW have made a right mess here.

1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".
2. Many players (myself for example) play with competitive tournament rules even in casual games.
3. Since the points are never going to be updated again the models are not actually supported forever because sooner or later their points will be completely out of sync with everything else.
4. It reduces the flexibility of many units. This makes the game less dynamic and much more boring.
5. It is not in keeping with the fluff that there is no MA Warboss outside of Ghazzy, yet Meks and Nobs have access to Mega Armour. It does not make any sense that an Autarch, the pinnacle of Aeldari mortal warfare that have mastered every aspect, take the same weapons every time they go to war. A Warboss can't jump or steal a bike but a Boy can? Rubbish.

I really dislike this ethos of "here is your model, you get 0 flexibility because it must take everything it is supplied with on the model and that is that". It kills fun kitbashing and modelling conversions. It kills the fun tactical choices that 40k was once known for. It is only a negative. Beyond the obvious (money), I see no possible reason why I can't elect to take a Big Mek with a KFF and no Mega Armour. The model I spent hours converting and painting has been rendered unplayable by GW. Luckily I used the FW Warboss on Bike model so I'm guessing I can play him as Zhadsnark. Otherwise that's another 15, 20 hours wasted. There are countless other players with Warbosses on Bikes, Painboyz on Bikes, Big Meks on Bikes, MA Warbosses etc etc etc

It's a slap in the face of every one of these players and they/we are right to be pissed.

Very much agreed.

I think Crimson suggested a much better solution recently. it was that GW should limit wargear based on what is available in a given model range, not on a specific model.

e.g. as long as there is a mega-armoured Ork unit (which can be converted), Ork Warbosses should be able to take mega-armour.

(Not that every model should have access to every piece of wargear - just that wargear should only be removed if it doesn't exist *anywhere* within the model range of the respective army.)

Not Online!!! wrote:

It's a slap in the face of every one of these players and they/we are right to be pissed. At least we all know how Dark Eldar players feel now though, right?

De got it shity indeed, however eldar Corsairs, ohhh boi, a local guy has some nice words reserved for that situation.

If he ever runs short of choice words, I'd be more than happy to lend him some of mine.

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We choose to play how tournaments play.

Well, then you have no room to complain. It's your own fault that you refuse to use these rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I quote myself from earlier in this same thread:

 Crimson wrote:

Ultimately your models will still be usable. Of course there is a huge segment of people who think that playing with toy soldiers is super serious business, and random games in a local store must follow the strictest possible tournament standards and thus will refuse to use these perfectly valid rules. I also expect at least half of those people will complain about units being removed, whilst in reality they have just been moved into Legends. Oh well, that's really not GWs fault.

Oh wow, it happened faster than I expected! People literally refuse to use these rules, then at the same breath complain that they cannot use these rules! Unbelievable!

You are not reading what I'm writing. The "choice" isn't mine alone. I'm not sure how you play, but I'm guessing it's not alone so you have a social contract with another person to play in a specified way. The way my group plays does not allow for me to use the units as I said above.

Nor are these rules "perfectly valid". They will likely be outdated on release because, as I previously stated, this is the first step on the squatting process.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
As well saying getting people to accept legends is the same as exchanging dice for slapping contests is about as hyperbolic a comment as I'll ever read.

You must be new here.

Accept Legends, don't do what GW wants you to do and fight back and think for yourself in regards to your games. They'll have rules, use them, they'll have points, use them. Don't cry GW took it all away and let group think rob you of your favorite models or units.

See above, not my choice.

So if I'm not mistaken the brilliant advice I'm getting from you two is 'find a new gaming group'? Or 'somehow force/coerce/convince your gaming group to play a different system they have played for tens of years'. Brilliant. Thanks guys. Real useful.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
If GW really wanted the game balanced, it would be. They don't want balance they want controlled imbalance to believe otherwise is to assume they are the worst at their jobs.

If they wanted real balance they'd trim all the options and have the armies all be as close to each other game play wise as possible as only then would skill really be the only deciding factor.

You don't factor in balance by tossing out a million bloated formations, strats, relics , traits all the allies , etc etc. All it does is breed into the system a zillion ways for the game to be very much imbalanced, and so it is. The game will never be a balanced game of skill, it's not what it's about no matter how hard some want to feel it is or will be.

It's a fun experience played with interesting models and enjoyable rules for fun while trying to win.

The index options were already being quietly phased by the community itself because people just delight in saying no to each other, all GW did is say " It's ok Jimmy, you can tell them no now, we said its ok " so now there isn't even a moment of shame about it.

Personally once it drops all my lists with be matched play legends lists, even if I take none of the legends models. I endorse most people taking this stance for pick up games. You want to be safe from all the scary bad fun old models, just hit up a tournament there you will be safe to be crushed by whatever the OP broken mess of the month is without hiding from warboss bikers doing donuts on your armys face.

My Librarian on bike will continue to be used since my bike strikeforce needs a Librarian and I'm thinking about building another. He also looks cool and seems to work for how I envisaged using him.