My take on the direction GW is taking ...

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**Crimson**

Ishagu wrote:

You mean that long established character who's return has been hinted at and built up over years of lore?

Are you expecting King Arthur to show up to sort out the Brexit any day now?

Mythical heroes of the past returning in the times of great need is stuff of stories and legends but if they start actually returning the setting will irrecoverably change; especially if one of the central themes of the setting is the glory days being in the distant past.

And of course in the ancient Greek literature the 'existence' of gods was well established, yet their too convenient use for resolving plot points in dramas was criticised as bad storytelling, resulting the term 'deus ex machina'.

**Ishagu**

Lol ok, you don't like the story anymore. Oh well. I'm sure you can find other fiction to enjoy. No big loss

**Platuan4th**

Crimson wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:

Then you need to re-examine what that term means, because no, they're not by any definition of Deus ex Machina.
Guilliman however almost literally is!

Still no.

**Sgt_Smudge**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:So, here is my fluff problem with the primaris, maybe someone can help me.

So Big E creates the Custodes, who were sort of his First Born. They were with him before even the Thunder warriors.

Then he creates the Thunder warriors. Then he kills them and makes the Space Marines.

Then Cawl, who is not supposed to be, but kinda is I guess, smarter than the Emperor, takes the old Space Marine, improves it, and radically enhances the technology.

Isn't the Space Marine supposed to be the Pinnacle of the Emperors Gene Augmentation knowledge? The Custodes are his finest creations, then the Primarchs, then the Space Marines.

Did Cawl just 1up the Emperor and make Primarch level superhumans?

No, he does not. The Emperor's finest creations were the Custodes and Primarchs, and the Primarchs were only able to be created by literally stealing Warp essence or power. So, ignoring them, the Custodes are his greatest creation. The Space Marines may be mighty and powerful, but they're weaker than the Custodes, and were also treated like the Thunder Warriors - the Emperor planned on killing them off too.

Even with Cawl's enhancements on the Space Marine base (which took him 10,000 years to do a modification of the Emperor's original design, whereas Big E was able to do it in far less time between the Thunder Warriors and first Space Marines, and with less resources), the Primaris are still inferior to the Custodes in every aspect. The Primaris *do* have some abilities taken from the Primarchs, but none of their sparks of divinity, as it were. Therefore, they're still far below Primarchs too.

Short answer, no, Cawl took 10,000 years to make a better Space Marine, but it's still nowhere close to Primarch tier - he is very much below the Emperor in almost every respect.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:So, here is my fluff problem with the primaris, maybe someone can help me.

So Big E creates the Custodes, who were sort of his First Born. They were with him before even the Thunder warriors.

Then he creates the Thunder warriors. Then he kills them and makes the Space Marines.

Then Cawl, who is not supposed to be, but kinda is I guess, smarter than the Emperor, takes the old Space Marine, improves it, and radically enhances the technology.

Isn't the Space Marine supposed to be the Pinnacle of the Emperors Gene Augmentation knowledge? The Custodes are his finest creations, then the Primarchs, then the Space Marines.

Did Cawl just 1up the Emperor and make Primarch level superhumans?
No, he does not. The Emperor's finest creations were the Custodes and Primarchs, and the Primarchs were only able to be created by literally stealing Warp essence or power. So, ignoring them, the Custodes are his greatest creation. The Space Marines may be mighty and powerful, but they're weaker than the Custodes, and were also treated like the Thunder Warriors - the Emperor planned on killing them off too.

Even with Cawl's enhancements on the Space Marine base (which took him 10,000 years to do a modification of the Emperor's original design, whereas Big E was able to do it in far less time between the Thunder Warriors and first Space Marines, and with less resources), the Primaris are still inferior to the Custodes in every aspect. The Primaris *do* have some abilities taken from the Primarchs, but none of their sparks of divinity, as it were. Therefore, they're still far below Primarchs too.

Short answer, no, Cawl took 10,000 years to make a better Space Marine, but it's still nowhere close to Primarch tier - he is very much below the Emperor in almost every respect.

Thank you for clearing that up!

**Sgt_Smudge**

Crimson wrote:
Ishagu wrote:

You mean that long established character who's return has been hinted at and built up over years of lore?
Are you expecting King Arthur to show up to sort out the Brexit any day now?

If we were living in a fiction setting, this would be an apt time, yes.

Unfortunately, as I'm sure you're aware, this is the real world, and 40k is not.

Mythical heroes of the past returning in the times of great need is stuff of stories and legends but if they start actually returning the setting will irrecoverably change; especially if one of the central themes of the setting is the glory days being in the distant past.

I don't remember all this commotion when Vulkan and Corax returned in books after their stint in the Heresy.

**ClockworkZion**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, here is my fluff problem with the primaris, maybe someone can help me.

So Big E creates the Custodes, who were sort of his First Born. They were with him before even the Thunder warriors.

Then he creates the Thunder warriors. Then he kills them and makes the Space Marines.

Then Cawl, who is not supposed to be, but kinda is I guess, smarter than the Emperor, takes the old Space Marine, improves it, and radically enhances the technology.

Isn't the Space Marine supposed to be the Pinnacle of the Emperors Gene Augmentation knowledge? The Custodes are his finest creations, then the Primarchs, then the Space Marines.

Did Cawl just 1up the Emperor and make Primarch level superhumans? It's the same problem with DBZ. Where do people rank the power levels, because it's getting confusing. The Lore uses objectively final words like "perfect" or "Unmatched" or "Greatest of his creations". The lore can't then say, we made something even PERFECTER.

Easy there, you're starting to get into crazy conspiracy land there at the end.

The Astartes where there when the Thunder Warriors were killed off and it's been hinted for a while that the Emperor was rushing to take advantage of the distraction Slaanesh's birth gave (keeping the other Chaos gods busy for a while) to win when they weren't looking. It's implied that Cawl just finished what the Emperor left unfinished and took 10k years to do it.

**Tiberias**

Platuan4th wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
40k literally has space magic. If you take it so seriously that it impacts your enjoyment you need to re-evaluate.

Lots of lore and stories are amazing, but many of them are full of logic holes and convenient plot devices.

Pimaris are a deus ex machina for the imperium, as I've said before.

Then you need to re-examine what that term means, because no, they're not by any definition of Deus ex Machina.

Please elaborate.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:Jesus, just accept that primaris lore is gak and the models mostly good.
And this the problem - Primaris lore is gak, according to you, but that's certainly not a fact by any means.
Telling people to "accept" an opinion that they simply don't share is hardly conducive to an argument.

Not Online!!! wrote:i stated their lore Implementation was gak.
That's it, just like 90% of alpha legion lore is gak.
Which are both your opinions. That's cool and all, but calling for people to "accept" that as a kind of truth? Nah, not quite.
And gw can and did do considerably better.

Also critique is a form of love.
So's obsession, but as with critique, excess of either is overwhelming. I don't think the deluge of "I hate Primaris!!!" threads is as loving as you think, and certainly comes across closer to toxic.

Tiberias wrote:This however did not impact the setting on a big scale. Which brings me to my point about the primaris: the imperium since the heresy has always been depicted as an insanely bureaucratic, fascistic, religiously zealous moloch, that was in a constant struggle to hold its galaxy wide territory together against all kinds of xenos, heretics and the big enemy. Technology since the heresy was never as good as old tech, and said old tech was often revered for how rare it was and because over time they gradually lost the knowledge to properly maintain their tech or even properly recreate it and if they managed to do it, they only could do it at a very slow pace.
But this is still the same. Even with Guilliman, the Imperium is still a theocratic, totalitarian, xenophobic regime as it always has been.
They've lost half the galaxy, and the half they do have is even more hard pressed. The Indomitus Crusade was successful in that it stopped the remaining half of the Imperium falling too, but it's not like it fixed everything. Their tech is still based on what are conceivably technologies in the Imperium (I mean, have you read how the Repulsor hovers? It's even more rudimentary than the Custodes skimmers, which aren't near Eldar tier), and I think that 10,000 years is an acceptable length of time for the Primaris project. I mean, it's not like Cawl just showed up in universe and magically created them. He's been working for 10,000 years to create a slightly better version of Astartes, and has had a direct missive from the highest authority in the Imperium to get it done. Considering that many people have said that Fabius Bile should have been the one to make Primaris (with less tech and resources than Cawl, might I add), I don't think it's because it couldn't have been done in-universe - it's just because we've never heard of Cawl before. As with everything though, more exposure to Cawl will normalise him.

If primaris marines were introduced as their own thing, a decidedly smaller elite force with the purpose to reinforce the old chapters and not as a replacement to them, it would have made more sense.
Which is what they are? They're not replacing anything or anyone else right now. And in all of GW's publicity, they've made it clear they're supplementary, not a replacement.
the story in this case appears to me more of an afterthought and so it comes as no surprise that many players had an issue with that. Because like it or not, for a great many people the underlying story of their plastic models matters.
Which is fair enough, but in the same vein, many people also say that there's no issue with the new story, and it's completely rational and doesn't detract from the setting. It's not as if everyone who likes Primaris is ignorant of the lore.

Karol wrote:Fluff wise there should be a civl war, because that is how an authoritarian sociaty reacts to sudden policy change. There are no soft resets, now talking over stuff, no I guess he is boss now. Change happens, and there are purges. And it doesn't even matter if the country is in a tough or even a war situation.
However, there are no nations on earth quite like the Imperium. The Imperium is pretty much based on the idea of worship of the Emperor, and the Primarchs and Astartes as his chief lieutenants. So while some of the HLOT might be jealous of Guilliman's new power, to the people, it's as if Jesus or an archangel came down to them - and good luck getting support when you're trying to rebel against one of the most prominent members of your empire's pantheon.

Plus, we have had purges. Guilliman deposed and removed several incompetent members of the Administratum and other leadership positions.

GW has said Primaris won't replace the old marines and they'll still support them, but let's not kid ourselves...the primaris model line was made to replace the old marines eventually. Why do you think established characters like marneus calgar and kor'sarro khan got the primaris treatment?

Regarding your point about the new tech I think we just have to agree to disagree. 3 new versions of power armor goes against the theme of scarcity in power armor and terminator armor that was prevalent in the old chapters. Now I don't have anything against the new power armor, in fact I have said multiple times that the mark x looks really good (only thing I personally really dont like is the phobos armor, which to me looks....weird).

**ClockworkZion**

Crimson wrote:
Ishagu wrote:

You mean that long established character who's return has been hinted at and built up over years of lore?
Are you expecting King Arthur to show up to sort out the Brexit any day now?

Mythical heroes of the past returning in the times of great need is stuff of stories and legends but if they start actually returning the setting will irrecoverably change; especially if one of the central themes of the setting is the glory days being in the distant past.

And of course in the ancient Greek literature the 'existence' of gods was well established, yet their too convenient use for resolving plot points in dramas was criticised as bad storytelling, resulting the term 'deus ex machina'.

In real life it's a bad jpke, but stories operate on a different logic. I mean the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is all about the Lion retutning to Narnia. The mobie Hooknwas all about Peter Pan going back to Neverland.

40k operates on the same sort of narrative causality where.myths and legemds can be real.

**Crimson**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't remember all this commotion when Vulkan and Corax returned in books after their stint in the Heresy.

They did? When?

**Tiberias**

ClockworkZion wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, here is my fluff problem with the primaris, maybe someone can help me.

So Big E creates the Custodes, who were sort of his First Born. They were with him before even the Thunder warriors.

Then he creates the Thunder warriors. Then he kills them and makes the Space Marines.

Then Cawl, who is not supposed to be, but kinda is I guess, smarter than the Emperor, takes the old Space Marine, improves it, and radically enhances the technology.

Isn't the Space Marine supposed to be the Pinnacle of the Emperors Gene Augmentation knowledge? The Custodes are his finest creations, then the Primarchs, then the Space Marines.

Did Cawl just 1up the Emperor and make Primarch level superhumans? It's the same problem with DBZ. Where do people rank the power levels, because it's getting confusing. The Lore uses objectively final words like "perfect" or "Unmatched" or "Greatest of his creations". The lore can't then say, we made something even PERFECTER.

Easy there, you're starting to get into crazy conspiracy land there at the end.

The Astartes where there when the Thunder Warriors were killed off and it's been hinted for a while that the Emperor was rushing to take advantage of the distraction Slaanesh's birth gave (keeping the other Chaos gods busy for a while) to win when they weren't looking. It's implied that Cawl just finished what the Emperor left unfinished and took 10k years to do it.

I am curious, what source do you refer to when you say the astartes were present when the thunder warriors were killed off? Was this in some black library publication, because as far as I understood it the custodes killed off the remaining thunder warriors and after that the emperor started to create the astartes

**ClockworkZion**

Platuan4th wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:

Then you need to re-examine what that term means, because no, they're not by any definition of Deus ex Machina.
Guilliman however almost literally is!

Still no.

Agreed. He literally died, had to get his soul stuffed back into his body, can feel the fact that his soul is damaged because of Fulgrim's poison (though hates admitting anything metaphysical) and lives inside of a suit of armour that is keeping him alive like a 40k Iron Man.

Guilliman's death says the belief he was healing was wrong. It also shows how screwed the Imperium was in ttusying a Xenos to shove his soul back inside of his body.

**Crimson**

ClockworkZion wrote:

In real life it's a bad jpke, but stories operate on a different logic. I mean the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is all about the Lion retutning to Narnia. The mobie Hooknwas all about Peter Pan going back to Neverland.

40k operates on the same sort of narrative causality where.myths and legemds can be real.

Yes those stories were about that. 40K on the other hand was about a rotten, declining empire, its glory days in the distant past and the heroes of old mere barely remembered distorted legends. How fething hard can it be to understand that one of those mythical heroes returning and starting to fix things utterly changes what the setting is about?

**ClockworkZion**

Tiberias wrote:

GW has said Primaris won't replace the old marines and they'll still support them, but let's not kid ourselves...the primaris model line was made to replace the old marines eventually. Why do you think established characters like marneus calgar and kor'sarro khan got the primaris treatment?

Regarding your point about the new tech I think we just have to agree to disagree. 3 new versions of power armor goes against the theme of scarcity in power armor and terminator armor that was prevalent in the old chapters. Now I don't have anything against the new power armor, in fact I have said multiple times that the mark x looks really good (only thing I personally really dont like is the phobos armor, which to me looks....weird).

It is quite likely that in the long run Primaris will replace standard Marines but that process is one that takes years.

And we don't have 3 versions of power armour, we have 1. All MkX armour is the same armour plus or minus armoured plates. Phobos is the most stripped down version while Gravis is the heaviest varient and every other varient is something in between. Badically a unit can armour up or strip down to suit the mission allowing for every squad to serve a wider range of roles in a company instead of needing specialist reinforcements from other companies to fill a gap in a strategy. In my book this makes the Astartes feel more flexible and mission oriented than before.

And even with this new armour there is a fair bit of combatability with older marks (helmets, shoulder pads, and likely more come the future).

**Ishagu**

Crimson wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't remember all this commotion when Vulkan and Corax returned in books after their stint in the Heresy.
They did? When?

Corax has transformed into a living Shadow and he battled Dameon Lorgar on Lorgar's own Daemon world, and easily defeated him. He also slaughtered thousands of Word Bearers and has vowed to hunt Lorgar down, now that he has his scent.

Vulkan returned to the Imperium about 1500? years after the Heresy to lead the Imperial Forces against the Ork Waaagh of the Beast. As a perpetual he cannot die and will likely be back again.

Trazyn the Infinte also has a perfect, un-corrupted clone of Fulgrim locked up in Stasis that has all the memories of the original. The clone is not happy with his original self! Has all the same gifts, abilities, super charisma and combat prowess. Perhaps Cawl can strike a deal with Trazyn, the two have history.

Also, some further lore: Guilliman does not need his suit to live, although the first time he took it off he was in great agony. Has body has finally defeated the poison and the only wounds are spiritual (But he does not want to admit it, even to himself).

**Apple fox**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:

Then you need to re-examine what that term means, because no, they're not by any definition of Deus ex Machina.
Guilliman however almost literally is!

Still no.

Agreed. He literally died, had to get his soul stuffed back into his body, can feel the fact that his soul is damaged because of Fulgrim's poison (though hates admitting anything metaphysical) and lives inside of a suit of armour that is keeping him alive like a 40k Iron Man.

Guilliman's death says the belief he was healing was wrong. It also shows how screwed the Imperium was in ttusying a Xenos to shove his soul back inside of his body.

I think it all sounds silly within the fluff of 40K. Its just all kinda bland, Cowl is probably the worst of it. But i feel like the Emperor and the primarchs becoming more than myth is way worse than anything to do with the primaris themselves, and think they would have been better as Cowl and a bunch of others within the imperium had been working on the upgrade.
Here some new minis, in new roles and a new way to field marines. But upgrade all marines, also leaves open for a new marine kits for the older units.

I think it would have been more interesting as well, And it would have largely left us in the same place. With a much more healthy environment for expansion. And without a lot of the worst part of what makes it all kinda bleh.

**ClockworkZion**

Cloning Primarchs is..weird. From the looks of it they have some kind of memory written into their genetic information meaning a clone knows everything the original knew up to the time the genetic sample was taken, but minus a soul they are weaker than the original and it seems that their souls have a bit of the Warp in them which might give them more power.

**Ishagu**

Primarchs becoming more than Myth was a product of fleshing out the Horus Heresy.

Those "mythical" bits of lore days are long gone.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Cloning Primarchs is..weird. From the looks of it they have some kind of memory written into their genetic information meaning a clone knows everything the original knew up to the time the genetic sample was taken, but minus a soul they are weaker than the original and it seems that their souls have a bit of the Warp in them which might give them more power.

Yeah it's really strange. I would be very interested in a story about Guilliman recovering the living clone of Fulgrim.

An un-corrupted Fulgrim would be an incredible ally, if certain safety measures were introduced. Also Guilliman could use the company - he is uttterly bored and lonely with not having anyone on his mental level to talk to. The Emperor must have felt the same way.

**Platuan4th**

Tiberias wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
40k literally has space magic. If you take it so seriously that it impacts your enjoyment you need to re-evaluate.

Lots of lore and stories are amazing, but many of them are full of logic holes and convenient plot devices.

Pimaris are a deus ex machina for the imperium, as I've said before.

Then you need to re-examine what that term means, because no, they're not by any definition of Deus ex Machina.

Please elaborate.
.

A Deus ex Machina is something that arrives from outside the narrative to resolve the plot. A relatively modern example comes from Texas Chainsaw Massacre 4, wherein a prop plane shows up, flies low, and saves Reese Witherspoon by killing Matthew Unspellable Last Name with the prop then flying off. No introduction, no explanation, plot finished.

Not only are Primaris not arriving from outside the narrative (in fact being rolled out in the 150 years of story between Gathering Storm and Dark Imperium), they most definitely have not resolved the plot.

**Breng77**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, here is my fluff problem with the primaris, maybe someone can help me.

So Big E creates the Custodes, who were sort of his First Born. They were with him before even the Thunder warriors.

Then he creates the Thunder warriors. Then he kills them and makes the Space Marines.

Then Cawl, who is not supposed to be, but kinda is I guess, smarter than the Emperor, takes the old Space Marine, improves it, and radically enhances the technology.

Isn't the Space Marine supposed to be the Pinnacle of the Emperors Gene Augmentation knowledge? The Custodes are his finest creations, then the Primarchs, then the Space Marines.

Did Cawl just 1up the Emperor and make Primarch level superhumans? It's the same problem with DBZ. Where do people rank the power levels, because it's getting confusing. The Lore uses objectively final words like "perfect" or "Unmatched" or "Greatest of his creations". The lore can't then say, we made something even PERFECTER.

Some others have answered this, but I would just say to find some lore (Like the Beast Arises series) where a Primarch is shown among the marines, they are shown to be on a level magnitudes more powerful than Space Marines. So it is very possible to alter the existing space marine with new tech to be slightly better in every way, without coming close to primarch level

**ClockworkZion**

Apple fox wrote:

I think it all sounds silly within the fluff of 40K. Its just all kinda bland, Cowl is probably the worst of it. But i feel like the Emperor and the primarchs becoming more than myth is way worse than anything to do with the primaris themselves, and think they would have been better as Cowl and a bunch of others within the imperium had been working on the upgrade.
Here some new minis, in new roles and a new way to field marines. But upgrade all marines, also leaves open for a new marine kits for the older units.

I think it would have been more interesting as well, And it would have largely left us in the same place. With a much more healthy environment for expansion. And without a lot of the worst part of what makes it all kinda bleh.

Cawl is currently the worst of it, but he is getting better. Much like how the Horus Heresy took time to become a tighter narrative event this too will take some time to settle. When it does I feel it'll be a solid story that holds up better tham what little we knew at the start.

The Primarch genie was unbottled for the Horus Heresy and once we did that it became too late to stuff if back in. Letting them back into 40k (especially the daemon primarchs who really sgouldn't have left) was just natural after that.

As for upgrading the Marines, it's happening in the lore, but a full upgrade takes time.

**Apple fox**

Ishagu wrote:
Primarchs becoming more than Myth was a product of fleshing out the Horus Heresy.

Those "mythical" bits of lore days are long gone.

And a lot of it went from Myth to joke. The horus heresy i think has left us with some great parts, and a lot of the worst of 40k.
The myths are the story inflated over years, though religions dogma. In most cases, deescalate the power so it can balance against itself in its own world. And you will be left with a better product, a lot of 40k marine lore was cool since it was them against things in the darkness that where dangerous. Super humans, but human in part.

Now i cannot help but feel the space marines are a bit of joke in there own setting. How many Marines but better do we have now.

**Ishagu**

In your opinion.

I find it funny that you think Marines are a joke but you have no problem with Fungal Space Pirates, Space Magic, and Space Viking Ware-Wolves.

**ClockworkZion**

Tiberias wrote:
I am curious, what source do you refer to when you say the astartes were present when the thunder warriors were killed off? Was this in some black library publication, because as far as I understood it the custodes killed off the remaining thunder warriors and after that the emperor started to create the astartes

Because the Iron Warriors were able to taunt the oldstartes with what happened to the Thunder Warriors when they found out about the Primaris (instead of relying on the public story that they died heroically in battle instead of being purged).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

In real life it's a bad jpke, but stories operate on a different logic. I mean the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is all about the Lion retutning to Narnia. The mobie Hooknwas all about Peter Pan going back to Neverland.

40k operates on the same sort of narrative causality where.myths and legemds can be real.
Yes those stories were about that. 40K on the other hand was about a rotten, declining empire, its glory days in the distant past and the heroes of old mere barely remembered distorted legends. How fething hard can it be to understand that one of those mythical heroes returning and starting to fix things utterly changes what the setting is about?

Narnia was about a horrible, corrupt dicatorship that was only saved by the return of Christ (represented by a lion). Now imagine that, only the return of the Lion doesn't make anything better and now the kingdom is cracked in half and the crack is full of hell itself.

Yeah, we have a walking legend, but we also see him straining under the pressure to the point of having his hair greying around the temples and even thinning a bit from the stress. A demi-god is going bald from stress. That's how bad it's gotten just trying to keep the leaking boat of the Imperium afloat.

**Apple fox**

Ishagu wrote:
In your opinion.

I find it funny that you think Marines are a joke but you have no problem with Fungal Space Pirates, Space Magic, and Space Viking Ware-Wolves.

I hate what space Viking ware-wolves have become, And its why i tend to leave it to within there own setting. Space magic is hardly that crazy a concept, and if the setting has rules and can support itself then that can be just fine within story telling.

Even with magic in settings, consistency within its own setting is important. Even the best wont be perfect, But the less you push those boundary the less players have to ignore inconsistency.

Also you seem to be really dismissive and rude, You just assume i happen to have no issues with something. And Fungal space pirates, Could mean a lot of things. But i guess the best way for you to support you like of 40k is to pull it down, rather than to hold it up to a a higher standard.

**Ishagu**

There's still consistency.

Just not with what you personally want?

**ClockworkZion**

Apple fox wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
In your opinion.

I find it funny that you think Marines are a joke but you have no problem with Fungal Space Pirates, Space Magic, and Space Viking Ware-Wolves.

I hate what space Viking ware-wolves have become, And its why i tend to leave it to within there own setting. Space magic is hardly that crazy a concept, and if the setting has rules and can support itself then that can be just fine within story telling.

Even with magic settings, consistency within its own setting is important. Even the best wont be perfect, But the less you push those boundary the less players have to ignore inconsistency.

Space Viking Werewolves was a thing long before Skyrim did Viking Werewolves. It's been hinted for years that there are no wolves on Fenris (and said wolves are actually humans mutated too far by whatever it is humanity did to their genetic code to adapt more to the planets they colonized (which might explain why Catachan natives look like bodybuilders: it's what the adaptation they gained to survive on their planet) and that causes the Wulfen mutation (and Thunderwolves may be the Space Wolves who go out for their final test and don't come back). The execution of the Wulfen is a bit naff (I think the t-poses are a big part of it since it feels less savage and more ballet) but the lore for them has been around for ages.

**Apple fox**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
In your opinion.

I find it funny that you think Marines are a joke but you have no problem with Fungal Space Pirates, Space Magic, and Space Viking Ware-Wolves.

I hate what space Viking ware-wolves have become, And its why i tend to leave it to within there own setting. Space magic is hardly that crazy a concept, and if the setting has rules and can support itself then that can be just fine within story telling.

Even with magic settings, consistency within its own setting is important. Even the best wont be perfect, But the less you push those boundary the less players have to ignore inconsistency.

Space Viking Werewolves was a thing long before Skyrim did Viking Werewolves. It's been hinted for years that there are no wolves on Fenris (and said wolves are actually humans mutated too far by whatever it is humanity did to their genetic code to adapt more to the planets they colonized (which might explain why Catachan natives look like bodybuilders: it's what the adaptation they gained to survive on their planet) and that causes the Wulfen mutation (and Thunderwolves may be the Space Wolves who go out for their final test and don't come back). The execution of the Wulfen is a bit naff (I think the t-poses are a big part of it since it feels less savage and more ballet) but the lore for them has been around for ages.

I can dislike a lot of that going back a long time, At a certen point the no wolves on fenris can just be dumb. The space wolves just forgot they could import wolves if they want them. Or there extinct, maybe they made them from other things. And where did Skyrim come into this Its not even the first thing with viking ware-wolves. Not even the first ware-wolves in the setting itself.

Also that was mostly just responding to Ishagu thinking i happen to just like something that i in actuality dislike.

**ClockworkZion**

Apple fox wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
In your opinion.

I find it funny that you think Marines are a joke but you have no problem with Fungal Space Pirates, Space Magic, and Space Viking Ware-Wolves.

I hate what space Viking ware-wolves have become, And its why i tend to leave it to within there own setting. Space magic is hardly that crazy a concept, and if the setting has rules and can support itself then that can be just fine within story telling.

Even with magic settings, consistency within its own setting is important. Even the best wont be perfect, But the less you push those boundary the less players have to ignore inconsistency.

Space Viking Werewolves was a thing long before Skyrim did Viking Werewolves. It's been hinted for years that there are no wolves on Fenris (and said wolves are actually humans mutated too far by whatever it is humanity did to their genetic code to adapt more to the planets they colonized (which might explain why Catachan natives look like bodybuilders: it's what the adaptation they gained to survive on their planet) and that causes the Wulfen mutation (and Thunderwolves may be the Space Wolves who go out for their final test and don't come back). The execution of the Wulfen is a bit naff (I think the t-poses are a big part of it since it feels less savage and more ballet) but the lore for them has been around for ages.

I can dislike a lot of that going back a long time, At a certen point the no wolves on fenris can just be dumb. The space wolves just forgot they could import wolves if they want them. Or there extinct, maybe they made them from other things. And where did Skyrim come into this Its not even the first thing with viking ware-wolves. Not even the first ware-wolves in the setting itself.

Skyrim tends to get a lot of credit for the "viking werewolf" idea, but 40k has been doing it for ages. Blood Angels were Space Vampires and Space Wolves were Viking Werewolves in Space as far back as I remember (though the "Blood X" and "Wolf X" stuff got really silly in 5th).

**Ishagu**

To anyone getting upset or thinking I'm rude. I certainly won't be saying what I'm saying if you added something like: "in my opinion" to your posts, rather than:

"Lore is crap" "Marines are a joke" etc, etc

Remember, people can like or dislike anything. It's subjective. The current lore is not objectively bad or out of line with the setting, but some people may not like it. That's perfectly fine.