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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
That is an absolute trash statline for Jain. Unless she's clockin in at ~80 points she's never going to see play (and even then there will be faaaaaaaar better options).

Yeah, I scoffed when I read her stats. Destroyer Lords have better stats. Higher toughness, higher strength, same number of attacks, same wounds. The only thing that it loses out on is WS and BS, but its 3+ rerolls 1, so almost 2+.

Further, she either lost her -1 to be hit in combat, or WHC fethed up again. Its the one ability on her existing datasheet they dont give a punch out image for.

 Imateria wrote:
Glad to see Drazhars ability has changed from +1 to hit to +1 to wound, this is far better as he gets to benefit from it and Incubi will definitely want that buff to wounding.

The article also implies that all incubi will have lethal precision. If so they are actually worth a punt. Drazhar hits like a ton of bricks, if he kept hatred eternal as a warlord trait the guy will mulch anything he charges.

Sterling191 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
That is an absolute trash statline for Jain. Unless she's clockin in at ~80 points she's never going to see play (and even then there will be faaaaaaaar better options).

Yeah, I scoffed when I read her stats. Destroyer Lords have better stats. Higher toughness, higher strength, same number of attacks, same wounds. The only thing that it loses out on is WS and BS, but its 3+ rerolls 1, so almost 2+.

Further, she either lost her -1 to be hit in combat, or WHC fethed up again. Its the one ability on her existing datasheet they dont give a punch out image for.

The article implies she still does, but not showing it was rather dumb I agree.

Khahandran wrote:

The article implies she still does, but not showing it was rather dumb I agree.

Its unclear to my reading whether thats coming from her, or from the Banshees they "suggest" you bring with her.

Drager wrote:
Looks like a big buff for Incubi if that is accurate. Lethal precision on the unit, not just the champion is great. With a +1 to wound on top, they are petty deadly killers getting 3D on 5s and wounding most things on 3s or 4s. They'll really do a number on primaris, but each wound will need to be rolled individually, which will be a pain with the numbers of attacks involved.

Sounds like lethal precision is on an unmodified 6 not a 6+ otherwise they REALLY fudged that little duel because he would be hitting her with a lot more damage 4 strikes.

So no updates to making her better than random SM captains. I dont understand how their effort level is so low for any book other than Marines.

Jain Zar's totally worth more points than Iron Father Feirros. All is well. Nothing to see here. Long live the 8.5 edition, lol.

 Kirasu wrote:
So no updates to making her better than random SM captains. I dont understand how their effort level is so low for any book other than Marines.

Except now she doesn't have a prayer when fighting random marine captains, unlike before where she could go "nope, no D4 thunder hammer for you, sir! Now we fight, FOREVEEEEEEEEEEEEEER!"

To be fair we don't know either costs yet, or on the infantry units. I mean, she can have that new power cast on her for another +2" charge at which point her threat range is 8+d6+2d6+5" and the extra inch you just need to be within. So shes averaging 28" a turn with that power lol. No overwatch either. I'd say she is pretty critical depending on cost in an environment where things are overwatching on a 4+ rerolling everything.

Drazhar definitely hits WAY harder and more often lol but he's also very one dimensional.

Jain Zar is slightly better than she was before. However, if she's still 125 points (with Iron Father being 110), then yes none of it makes sense.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Drager wrote:
Looks like a big buff for Incubi if that is accurate. Lethal precision on the unit, not just the champion is great. With a +1 to wound on top, they are petty deadly killers getting 3D on 5s and wounding most things on 3s or 4s. They'll really do a number on primaris, but each wound will need to be rolled individually, which will be a pain with the numbers of attacks involved.

Sounds like lethal precision is on an unmodified 6 not a 6+ otherwise they REALLY fudged that little duel because he would be hitting her with a lot more damage 4 strikes.

Well in the Drazhar preview they do show the rule and it specifically says Unmodified 6s.

She never was or is 125 ppm.

 Elbows wrote:
Jain Zar is slightly better than she was before. However, if she's still 125 points (with Iron Father being 110), then yes none of it makes sense.

True, but at the same time it is getting silly listening to people use that guy as a measure of whats fair. He's clearly broken and everything in the game shouldn't come down to meet him, he should go up in cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
She never was or is 125 ppm.

Shes 115 in CA18

 Shadenuat wrote:
She never was or is 125 ppm.

115ppm. They were 10pts off - and that is still absurdly high for her new incarnation given how sad her damage output is outside of stupid edge-case scenarios.

This is why I dislike her new Timmy power - everyones gonna go "BUT MUH ONE GAME SHE HAD 19 ATTACKS!"

99% of the time, if you take Jain, here's what happens:

-You expend support to get her into combat

-she destroys most of a screening unit

-Then she gets shot to death supremely easily, because they can just fall back and she's right out in the open. She kills less than half her value.

Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.

She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
She never was or is 125 ppm.

115ppm. They were 10pts off - and that is still absurdly high for her new incarnation given how sad her damage output is outside of stupid edge-case scenarios.

This is why I dislike her new Timmy power - everyones gonna go "BUT MUH ONE GAME SHE HAD 19 ATTACKS!"

99% of the time, if you take Jain, here's what happens:

-You expend support to get her into combat

-she destroys most of a screening unit

-Then she gets shot to death supremely easily, because they can just fall back and she's right out in the open. She kills less than half her value.

Alternatively you can kill the screen, quicken her through the gap and use that new 40mm base to tag all those clowns that need to be real close to that small aura buff. Is it a skill free maneuver? No, but why should it be?

 Elbows wrote:
Jain Zar is slightly better than she was before. However, if she's still 125 points (with Iron Father being 110), then yes none of it makes sense.

She was 115, and in what way is she better since the only change is loosing Disarming Strike for the far more situational Storm of Silence?

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
She never was or is 125 ppm.

115ppm. They were 10pts off - and that is still absurdly high for her new incarnation given how sad her damage output is outside of stupid edge-case scenarios.

This is why I dislike her new Timmy power - everyones gonna go "BUT MUH ONE GAME SHE HAD 19 ATTACKS!"

99% of the time, if you take Jain, here's what happens:

-You expend support to get her into combat

-she destroys most of a screening unit

-Then she gets shot to death supremely easily, because they can just fall back and she's right out in the open. She kills less than half her value.

Alternatively you can kill the screen, quicken her through the gap and use that new 40mm base to tag all those clowns that need to be real close to that small aura buff. Is it a skill free maneuver? No, but why should it be?

Kill the screen...before the psychic phase?

Is it possible to learn this power?

New Jain is not a skill piece. She's a timmy piece, for narrative games where footslogging melee units matter. She'll make as much actual competitive impact as the cloak of blades Solitaire build: none at all.

Unless she's costed so stupidly low that there's no reason not to throw her in. Obviously if she were like, 40 points, everyone would just use her as a throwaway because why not.

She had a role. Now she does not - she just has an ability that makes her marginally less laughable against horde units.But she's gone from a piece with a purpose (neutralizing pesky models with nasty melee weapons) to a piece without one.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
She never was or is 125 ppm.

115ppm. They were 10pts off - and that is still absurdly high for her new incarnation given how sad her damage output is outside of stupid edge-case scenarios.

This is why I dislike her new Timmy power - everyones gonna go "BUT MUH ONE GAME SHE HAD 19 ATTACKS!"

99% of the time, if you take Jain, here's what happens:

-You expend support to get her into combat

-she destroys most of a screening unit

-Then she gets shot to death supremely easily, because they can just fall back and she's right out in the open. She kills less than half her value.

Alternatively you can kill the screen, quicken her through the gap and use that new 40mm base to tag all those clowns that need to be real close to that small aura buff. Is it a skill free maneuver? No, but why should it be?

Kill the screen...before the psychic phase?

Is it possible to learn this power?

New Jain is not a skill piece. She's a timmy piece, for narrative games where footslogging melee units matter. She'll make as much actual competitive impact as the cloak of blades Solitaire build: none at all.

Unless she's costed so stupidly low that there's no reason not to throw her in. Obviously if she were like, 40 points, everyone would just use her as a throwaway because why not.

She had a role. Now she does not - she just has an ability that makes her marginally less laughable against horde units.But she's gone from a piece with a purpose (neutralizing pesky models with nasty melee weapons) to a piece without one.

Agreed, I don't think it would have been OP to allow her to have both abilities. She could pick which to use depending on the circumstance.

Disarming Strike was probably her most interesting and best power, this is all a little bland for me.

Drazhar sounds interesting though, a proper beat stick.

E - For you CSM players - Kikasstou also said not to expect legion traits on vehicles.

 bullyboy wrote:
Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.

She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.

Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...

On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.

Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.

Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.

Kdash wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.

She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.

Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...

On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.

Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.

Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.

Maybe the pheonix lords get an exarch power. Would kinda make sense?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
She never was or is 125 ppm.

115ppm. They were 10pts off - and that is still absurdly high for her new incarnation given how sad her damage output is outside of stupid edge-case scenarios.

This is why I dislike her new Timmy power - everyones gonna go "BUT MUH ONE GAME SHE HAD 19 ATTACKS!"

99% of the time, if you take Jain, here's what happens:

-You expend support to get her into combat

-she destroys most of a screening unit

-Then she gets shot to death supremely easily, because they can just fall back and she's right out in the open. She kills less than half her value.

Alternatively you can kill the screen, quicken her through the gap and use that new 40mm base to tag all those clowns that need to be real close to that small aura buff. Is it a skill free maneuver? No, but why should it be?

Kill the screen...before the psychic phase?

Is it possible to learn this power?

New Jain is not a skill piece. She's a timmy piece, for narrative games where footslogging melee units matter. She'll make as much actual competitive impact as the cloak of blades Solitaire build: none at all.

Unless she's costed so stupidly low that there's no reason not to throw her in. Obviously if she were like, 40 points, everyone would just use her as a throwaway because why not.

She had a role. Now she does not - she just has an ability that makes her marginally less laughable against horde units.But she's gone from a piece with a purpose (neutralizing pesky models with nasty melee weapons) to a piece without one.

Smite, and executioner do pretty good at punching holes through screens yes. Alternatively if you fail you can move her point blank prior to the shooting phase and with a 2d6+5" charge you have really good odds at hitting their lines anyway. You alternatively could not use her first turn, and instead remove the chaf. I am not saying she is a brainless model like Feirros, and I don't think that should be the defining metric of a good unit.

They should have all if them and be able to choose each turn which to activate

Kdash wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.

She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.

Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...

On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.

Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.

Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.

It's a narrative duel, it's not really worth reading into when the DE guy gave Jain first turn and from the sounds of it at least one of the players has never 40k'd before.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Kdash wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.

She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.

Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...

On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.

Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.

Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.

It's a narrative duel, it's not really worth reading into when the DE guy gave Jain first turn and from the sounds of it at least one of the players has never 40k'd before.

Oh i know it's a narrative duel, but, it's represented as round 1 being a curb stomp to Jain, round 2 to Draz and then round 3 Draz fluffs massively. When using the models and rules in an example aimed at being an honest interpretation of what can happen, you have to just go with the flow, even if it means the Phoenix Lord super character gets wrecked.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Alternatively you can kill the screen, quicken her through the gap and use that new 40mm base to tag all those clowns that need to be real close to that small aura buff. Is it a skill free maneuver? No, but why should it be?

Jain is p cool harassing unit, I played her, but the biggest thing was that enemy couldn't randomly smack her with any character with decent damage weapon. Now it's really scary to be around enemy characters even if they're support kind of type.

 ikeulhu wrote:

Jacob29 wrote:

Also is it me or did Drazhar win the combat round 3 but they just went "no wait actually Jain zar totally did a backflip and ninja killed him!!!!"??

Yeah, I also got that impression. Unless the second time fighting from Drahzar was already accounted in the description of him doing 4 wounds. Otherwise they basically copped out and had him lose even though he would have had another set of attacks.

Or he flopped badly on the 2nd set of attacks. Never have had such a bad dice rolling?-) On monday I had game where I couldn't seem to roll 5+ at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.

She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.

Umm we are talking about this thing called "dice". There's no need to invent plot armour when we are talking about dice game. In dice game weird things happen. On saturday game of adeptus titanicus warlord titan fired at reaver titan with zero damage and somehow destroyed it. That just shouldn't happen. I don't even want to try to calculate odds of that one. First 6 attacks hitting on 4+, then he had 4+ save rerolling 1's and he needed to get total of 4 failures. And that was just the beginning. I needed to follow with lot more 6's to do what I did.

It's a dice game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.

She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.

Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...

On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.

Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.

Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.

You play with averages rather than dice rolls? How you deal with decimals?

Average is average, there is also deviation. Jain has 4+ save against his attacks, basically an extra save, especially against 4 Damage, and she already survives. Not to mention she can kill Drazhar in-between 2 activations and fights first in 2d round.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?

No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place

No, because the CSM keeps trying to do too much that it isn't meant for, and it isn't meant for Renegades. No reason that any Renegade band suddenly gets a bunch of Daemon Engines and all the sudden lost their Whirlwinds and Assault Cannon Terminators. Oh and those Storm Shields the Terminators had don't work anymore either.

No, Renegades should not be in the CSM codex.

Edit: Red Corsair is right.