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Phoenix Lords are currently about as dangerous than normal Exarchs should be, if even that.

 Crimson wrote:
Phoenix Lords are currently about as dangerous than normal Exarchs should be, if even that.

I would welcome Exarchs returning as a Lieutenant style character unit. That would actually be really cool IMO, rather than having them be weirdly potent and important sergeant equivalents.

Though given how good characters are in 8th that would just mean everyone would use exarchs instead of any regular aspect warrior squad

 Galas wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.

This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.

If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.

Thats a big confusion many people has with 40k and old fantasy.

Eldar and Dark Eldar ARE NOT High Elves and Dark Elves from Fantasy. Their separation doesnt come from a big civil war that destroyed the High Elven Homeland and the Dark Eldar aren't lead by a wanabee King that claims he's the rightfull leader of all Elves.

In 40k the separation of Dark Eldar and Craftworlders comes from how they chose to live their lives after the fall. And even if their philosopies put them at odds many times, their separation is not as big as in Fantasy. At the end of the day they are all Eldar, for a Craftworlder a Dark Eldar comes before a Human in his list of priorities, where in Fantasy, for a High Elf, a Dark Elf is probably the worst thing in the world.

Please don't lecture me on Eldar and Dark Eldar fluff, and I don't even play fantasy. Eldar and Dark Eldar have historically been at odds with each other (see: the fluff) but it's only relatively recently you have them teaming up and even then it's as untrustworthy allies. They still fight each other even then!

Eldar and Dark Eldar working together on a regular basis as Ynnari IS a big change. Dark Eldar with their violence and lack of spirit stones is like a shining beacon in the Warp for daemons to come running and the Craftworlders don't like associating themselves with that. Letting emotions run freely is bad for Eldar business. Slapping them together as Ynnari is like (to reference politics as previously done) conservatives and labour parties forming a coalition.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Phoenix Lords are currently about as dangerous than normal Exarchs should be, if even that.

I would welcome Exarchs returning as a Lieutenant style character unit. That would actually be really cool IMO, rather than having them be weirdly potent and important sergeant equivalents.

Though given how good characters are in 8th that would just mean everyone would use exarchs instead of any regular aspect warrior squad

Thats easely fixed with allowing one exarc for each aspect warrior unit.

And I always find strange all this extra exarch powers and things for a character that is basically a slighly better sargeant.

the_scotsman wrote:

Calgar: WS2+ BS2+ S4 T5 W8 A6 Sv2+
4++ invuln, damage halved round up, Sx2 Ap-3 Dd3 melee weapon, rerolls his own to hit rolls.

I know I'm getting off topic but bloody hell are Calgar's stats stupid.

8 wounds? Seriously?

What I don't understand is how a cybernetic slow assf giant roboman in a extremely heavy armor with two giant fists has 6 attacks and the extremely agile and fast eldars have 4.

I mean, I understand why, marines blablabla, but... is just stupid.

 Galas wrote:
What I don't understand is how a cybernetic slow assf giant roboman in a extremely heavy armor with two giant fists has 6 attacks and the extremely agile and fast eldars have 4.

I mean, I understand why, marines blablabla, but... is just stupid.

I think it's a case of GW refusing to give models actual weaknesses.

e.g. Imperial Knights could have been made durable and packing significant amounts of firepower, but also slow and ponderous. But no, they just zip around like they're on rocket-skates and in spite of their tremendous weight and bulk, have no issues pivoting on a dime.

Gotta show off that Primaris dominance by being both DUMMY THICC and having the number of attacks to effectively clap those gravis cheeks.

 Galas wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.

This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.

If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.

Thats a big confusion many people has with 40k and old fantasy.

Eldar and Dark Eldar ARE NOT High Elves and Dark Elves from Fantasy. Their separation doesnt come from a big civil war that destroyed the High Elven Homeland and the Dark Eldar aren't lead by a wanabee King that claims he's the rightfull leader of all Elves.

In 40k the separation of Dark Eldar and Craftworlders comes from how they chose to live their lives after the fall. And even if their philosopies put them at odds many times, their separation is not as big as in Fantasy. At the end of the day they are all Eldar, for a Craftworlder a Dark Eldar comes before a Human in his list of priorities, where in Fantasy, for a High Elf, a Dark Elf is probably the worst thing in the world.

Spoiler alert:

Chopstick wrote:

 silverstu wrote:


Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?

That's not Death Masque, all of these are 150$USD btw.

Wow, I've just totaled up the value of everything in that Deathmask box on the Harlequins side of things and it comes to £133.50, whilst the Deathwatch are about £100. Compared to the Craftworlds and Drulhari side of the new box that are both worth about £100, so there's less in it for £40 more. I gather Death Mask is probably unusual just for how much stuff you got in it but still, GW are out right lying about this being their biggest box set ever.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.

I mean they're also sitting at 13ppm, and clearly intended to be a glass cannon melee specialist. But how does any of that compare favorably with boyz who have a higher toughness/strength, and double the attacks for half the price?

The power swords don't make up for terrible damage output

It's also still terrible fluff-wise because Banshees are intended to be supernaturally quick in combat, yet they've got the same attack profile of a guard sgt or a bunch of melee cultists.

 Imateria wrote:

Chopstick wrote:

 silverstu wrote:


Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?

That's not Death Masque, all of these are 150$USD btw.

Wow, I've just totaled up the value of everything in that Deathmask box on the Harlequins side of things and it comes to £133.50, whilst the Deathwatch are about £100. Compared to the Craftworlds and Drulhari side of the new box that are both worth about £100, so there's less in it for £40 more. I gather Death Mask is probably unusual just for how much stuff you got in it but still, GW are out right lying about this being their biggest box set ever.

We don't know what the individual prices of the new models are going to be. If they get a significant price rise (spoiler: they will) then it could still be true.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.

This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.

If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.

Thats a big confusion many people has with 40k and old fantasy.

Eldar and Dark Eldar ARE NOT High Elves and Dark Elves from Fantasy. Their separation doesnt come from a big civil war that destroyed the High Elven Homeland and the Dark Eldar aren't lead by a wanabee King that claims he's the rightfull leader of all Elves.

In 40k the separation of Dark Eldar and Craftworlders comes from how they chose to live their lives after the fall. And even if their philosopies put them at odds many times, their separation is not as big as in Fantasy. At the end of the day they are all Eldar, for a Craftworlder a Dark Eldar comes before a Human in his list of priorities, where in Fantasy, for a High Elf, a Dark Elf is probably the worst thing in the world.

Spoiler alert:

Spoiler:

Malekith was actually the rightful king of the elves all along. The high elf kings were the wannabees.

I know but that fluff is so bad I normally try to ignore it. How GW did a 180º and made what was basically the most cruel race of the old world (Even more than Chaos), the guys on the right all along was at the level of Blizzard making Illidan the good guy and everything else a moron.

 vipoid wrote:
.

e.g. Imperial Knights could have been made durable and packing significant amounts of firepower, but also slow and ponderous. But no, they just zip around like they're on rocket-skates and in spite of their tremendous weight and bulk, have no issues pivoting on a dime.

Well speed isn't that odd actually. Quite a few Dinosaurus would appear as slow and poundering but would be actually outrunning quite a lot. they would look to be moving in slow motion yet be quite fast.

 Galas wrote:


I know but that fluff is so bad I normally try to ignore it. How GW did a 180º and made what was basically the most cruel race of the old world (Even more than Chaos), the guys on the right all along was at the level of Blizzard making Illidan the good guy and everything else a moron.

It was always obvious that de jure Maelkith's claim was legitimate and the later High Elf kings were usurpers. Doesn't change the fact that Malekith was a complete donkey-cave.

tneva82 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
.

e.g. Imperial Knights could have been made durable and packing significant amounts of firepower, but also slow and ponderous. But no, they just zip around like they're on rocket-skates and in spite of their tremendous weight and bulk, have no issues pivoting on a dime.

Well speed isn't that odd actually. Quite a few Dinosaurus would appear as slow and poundering but would be actually outrunning quite a lot. they would look to be moving in slow motion yet be quite fast.

Yeah, Usain Bolt only beats an Elephant by 2MPH at his record-breaking sprint. How long your legs are is a thing. I have no problem with IK's having high top speed, given their scale.

 Crimson wrote:

 Galas wrote:


I know but that fluff is so bad I normally try to ignore it. How GW did a 180º and made what was basically the most cruel race of the old world (Even more than Chaos), the guys on the right all along was at the level of Blizzard making Illidan the good guy and everything else a moron.

It was always obvious that de jure Maelkith's claim was legitimate and the later High Elf kings were usurpers. Doesn't change the fact that Malekith was a complete donkey-cave.

I'm not saying that Malekith claim wasn't legitimate. I believe that was a good turn, like, yeah maybe he was the rightull heir but he was also a piece of **** so he wasn't fit to rule.
But is too obvious, if you read the 6th edition Dark Elf army book, how they are described as the most vile race in warhammer, but in the 8th they are totally whitewashed and "yeah they aren't THAT bad".It was so obvious that it was painfull to read.

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
.

e.g. Imperial Knights could have been made durable and packing significant amounts of firepower, but also slow and ponderous. But no, they just zip around like they're on rocket-skates and in spite of their tremendous weight and bulk, have no issues pivoting on a dime.

Well speed isn't that odd actually. Quite a few Dinosaurus would appear as slow and poundering but would be actually outrunning quite a lot. they would look to be moving in slow motion yet be quite fast.

Yeah, Usain Bolt only beats an Elephant by 2MPH at his record-breaking sprint. How long your legs are is a thing. I have no problem with IK's having high top speed, given their scale.

Thats a problem of the game not being depth enough to differentiate top speed on a straight line and maneuverability.

Well, all elves are selfish egotistical jerks, so really Malekith was the perfect ruler for them.

tneva82 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
.

e.g. Imperial Knights could have been made durable and packing significant amounts of firepower, but also slow and ponderous. But no, they just zip around like they're on rocket-skates and in spite of their tremendous weight and bulk, have no issues pivoting on a dime.

Well speed isn't that odd actually. Quite a few Dinosaurus would appear as slow and poundering but would be actually outrunning quite a lot. they would look to be moving in slow motion yet be quite fast.

But what you're ignoring is acceleration. Yes, large things can be fast but they can't just go from a standstill to their maximum speed.

For example, aeroplanes can reach incredible speeds, but if you've ever seen one take off it can require over a mile of runway just to accelerate to takeoff speed.

Furthermore, decelerating and/or changing direction becomes a far more difficult and lengthy process. To use the aeroplane example above, they also require a similar amount of runway to actually come to a stop on landing. Similarly, when they want to turn, they can only do so in a wide arc - they can't just pivot on the spot and then carry on at full speed in the new direction.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Phoenix Lords are currently about as dangerous than normal Exarchs should be, if even that.

I would welcome Exarchs returning as a Lieutenant style character unit. That would actually be really cool IMO, rather than having them be weirdly potent and important sergeant equivalents.

Though given how good characters are in 8th that would just mean everyone would use exarchs instead of any regular aspect warrior squad

With how the damage system and AP system works, I'd prefer they got the WS/BS2+ W2 back. I was very much against it for 7th but I think it would be okay for this edition.

For anyone interested, it appears DE are getting custom Obsessions and nothing else.

 vipoid wrote:
For anyone interested, it appears DE are getting custom Obsessions and nothing else.

Hmm. Well, I would anticipate that the weaker Obsessions like Strife and Coven of Twelve will most likely be completely obsolete if they're not seeing an SM-style redesign.

Where's this rumor sourced from? I am disappointed to not see the few units that aren't good aren't getting rules updates, but not super surprised. Tough to complain too much when Drukhari is really in a great spot and I can't say that they don't have enough rules to track... most obsessions are already two-parters and they've got PFP and Drugs to keep track of.

The drukhari relic lists are good. The WL traits are good. The stratagems are good. They're an army that doesn't need all that much. Maybe more anti-psyker tech?

Would've been nice to have rules updates to Hellions, Beasts/masters, Wracks and Cronos engines though.

Presumably though they do at least get new profiles to Incubi and Drazar though, which were two units that needed boosts.

Well now...

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.

I mean they're also sitting at 13ppm, and clearly intended to be a glass cannon melee specialist. But how does any of that compare favorably with boyz who have a higher toughness/strength, and double the attacks for half the price?

The power swords don't make up for terrible damage output

It's also still terrible fluff-wise because Banshees are intended to be supernaturally quick in combat, yet they've got the same attack profile of a guard sgt or a bunch of melee cultists.

Well crucially Boyz only have a 6+ save while Banshees sit at a 4+ and have inbuilt -1 to hit in combat. They can innately advance and charge and they get +3" to their charge if they do so. That said I think their Str should be 4 (have their swords add +1).

Their speed is represented by their movement stat that is significantly larger than Boyz (5").

Banshees are designed to be a tar-pit so perhaps GW should have gone/should go all in on that? Give them a specific stratagem to make them -2 to hit, watch as they laugh at Power Fists, Klaws and anything else with -1 in built. Give them a way to stop units retreating like Wyches.

 bullyboy wrote:
I did like the images of jez original artwork.....man, the aesthetic is as good today as it was back then.

Warhammer art have a fantastic limited edition print of JG early howling banshee concept art. I bought it and have framed it up. Looks fabulous.

https://warhammerart.com/shop/warhammer-40000/alien-xenos/howling-banshee-concept-sketch/

Custom Wych Cult Traits:

Slashing Impact: A model with this obsession finishing a charge move within 1" of enemy infantry, biker or monster models rolls a D6. On a 5+, it causes a mortal wound.

Stimulant Innovators: Hyperstimm Backlash costs 1 command point instead of 2.

Test of Skill: +1 to wound vs 10+ wound enemy models

Trophy Takers: Enemy rolls 2 dice takes the highest for leadership tests

Bezerk Fugue: Hit roll of 6 causes 2 hits

Precise Killers: Wound roll of 6 causes an extra AP-1

Acrobatic Display: Add 1 to invuln saves up to 3++ if in close combat. Models without an invuln get 6++ when in close combat. Can't take a second trait.

Kabal Obsessions:

Mobile Raiders: +3" move to models with fly

Soul Bound: Reroll inured to suffering (6+++ FNP saves) of 1. Models that don't have Inured to Suffering gain Inured to Suffering.

Toxin Crafters: Poison weapons deal 2 damage on a wound roll of 6

Webway Raiders: You can use the webway stratagem twice

Covens

Artists of Flesh: Subtract 1 from damage characteristics of weapons that target units with this obsession (Cannot take a second trait with this one)

Dark Harvests: Exactly the same as slashing impact: MW on a 5+ for each model within 1" on a charge.

Master Torturers: Torturer's Craft costs 1CP instead of 2.

Dark Technomancers: You may choose to add +1 to the wound and +1 to the damage roll for a shooting weapon. If you do, you suffer a mortal wound for each wound roll of 1.

Experimental Creations: The wonky toughness one from the article

Note: It's unlikely this is all of them, because they did not reveal the Wych Cult one from the article, and because they said there were 22. So there are 8 we have not yet seen most likely most of them Coven or Kabal.

Also, they did reference updated Stratagems for Drukhari, though I'm not expecting too much. Incubi are unchanged except the whole squad gets precision strikes (Which, tbf, is really quite good). Drazar gets his fairly solid rework. Too bad he still can't ride in a venom alongside a squad of incubi :^)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, there's a Ynnari.....hype? Article up on warcom I didn't even notice.

It seems like it'll be a reprint of the gak-tastic Ynnari WD rules. Fs in chat for Ynnari.

They nerfed main Ynnari stratagem, it went up to 2CP.

 Shadenuat wrote:
They nerfed main Ynnari stratagem, it went up to 2CP.

Best way to run Ynnari is just to run the three characters as a supreme command and ally them with other eldar factions using functional stratagems and chapter tactics

So far Kabals are defintiely looking like they are getting a bit shafted here, I've seen nothing that would make me reconsider playing Flayed Skull.

Potentially some very interesting combos for Coven and Cults, though I'm not sure any of the Coven combo's would be good enough to replace Prophets of Flesh.

I see a 6++ for my Serpents including CC, and potential 5++ with Protect on units on infantry and bikes; and -1 AP for some punching power. It's like Biel-Tan + Ulthwe somewhat but together is more fun.

It would allow me not to use 2CP cover during 1st turn if enemy shoots with -4 AP at me.