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A couple things. 1: 4+++ in overwatch isn't going to do anything for Nids. One, it has to overcome Kraken (nope). 2: Does it revolutionize any good units? Nope. Goodie, my 'Stealers unit that didn't get Catalyst has an FNP. Okay, they're still going to get gunned down. 3: Does it fix any bad units? Nope. My other melee specialists (MCs, Lictors, Warriors, etc. etc.) still either don't have enough attacks or hit on 4s. Maybe survive overwatch but they hit like the opposite of a Tyranid freight train.

Maybe this book will have some good stuff. But unless it's a specially tailored stratagem, it'll be a "rich get richer" type deal, just like with Eldar and Crimson Hunter Exarchs. And GW showed that didn't have to be the case with the Marines codex. So yeah, that's pretty up. Not only do those gakholes get better rules overall, they also got some internal codex balance. And Xenos are sorely lacking that, and GW won't give it to us in PA. So why the hell should I buy this book? And I say this as somebody who has spent an inordinate amount of money on GW crud. Well, Crud(dace), maybe you won't get any more until you fix your screwed up system.

Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?

Seriously, i understand that right now everyone is blinded by the OPness of marines and wants his faction to get on the same level, but it would be a huge mistake for the game. The right course of action right now is to just reduce the power level of marines, not to increase everyone to that level.

If i look at the tyranids in the light of this update and ask myself, "Do i see myself able to go toe to toe with the new sisters, chaos after the disco nerf, CWE after the airwing nerf, necrons post buff and in general every non marine faction out there?" i'm quite confident that i could have some quite intereseting games and have a fair chance at winning without even having to rely on the GS bomb. It is just Tau that i think would give me big problems, but we have not had any CA spoilers on them.

Actually, if you take the marines out of the picture for a moment, the game has never been so balanced. So everyone asking for all factions to be brought up instead of marines being brought down, is not driving the game in a good direction.

The solution would be easy IMHO. Make the marine supplements, actual supplements. So if you get your super doctrine, you lose the AP-1 on that phase. If you get the specific stratagems you lose the generic stratagems, same for relics traits and powers.

Make it so that no matter if you go codex only or codex + supplement, you have the same amount of effects in play and number of choices. Supplements should be optional.

PA supplements right now have been greatly designed for non-marines, they always offer lateral choices. If there are new mechanics like demon weapons and byo adaptations, they come at the cost of something you had. This is the correct way to make a supplement.

Spoletta wrote:
Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?

Seriously, i understand that right now everyone is blinded by the OPness of marines and wants his faction to get on the same level, but it would be a huge mistake for the game. The right course of action right now is to just reduce the power level of marines, not to increase everyone to that level.

If i look at the tyranids in the light of this update and ask myself, "Do i see myself able to go toe to toe with the new sisters, chaos after the disco nerf, CWE after the airwing nerf, necrons post buff and in general every non marine faction out there?" i'm quite confident that i could have some quite intereseting games and have a fair chance at winning without even having to rely on the GS bomb. It is just Tau that i think would give me big problems, but we have not had any CA spoilers on them.

Actually, if you take the marines out of the picture for a moment, the game has never been so balanced. So everyone asking for all factions to be brought up instead of marines being brought down, is not driving the game in a good direction.

The solution would be easy IMHO. Make the marine supplements, actual supplements. So if you get your super doctrine, you lose the AP-1 on that phase. If you get the specific stratagems you lose the generic stratagems, same for relics traits and powers.

Make it so that no matter if you go codex only or codex + supplement, you have the same amount of effects in play and number of choices. Supplements should be optional.

PA supplements right now have been greatly designed for non-marines, they always offer lateral choices. If there are new mechanics like demon weapons and byo adaptations, they come at the cost of something you had. This is the correct way to make a supplement.

Keep running your Thousand Sons Spoletta, this is a bad take. A) The Nids Adaptation isn't comparable to Chaos Daemon Weapons because we don't get a free WLT like other factions get extra relic strats. Maybe we end up doing so, and yeah, our WLTs suck. But you can't just get new ones and throw anything away. B) You really think our gak is comparable with other factions? Because there's no tournament evidence of that, and very, very little anecdotal evidence either (as you said, you shelved your Nids yourself). What puts us on the level of the other mid-tier guys?

nagash42 wrote:
Everyone complaining about why isn't it like the marine codex these books are not codexes you will have to wait for your codex to get more. These books are basically hold over till 9th sucks that marines got it first but that's just how it is you'll have to wait.

The nid stuff looks good to me a 4+overwatch fnp is a auto-include for me then I get to pick another from however big the list is.

at this point I've concluded that they don't WANT to get it.

BrianDavion wrote:


that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.

Or because it's not up to equal level. Current measure stick is marines. If you aren't equal you are worse and are in for just losing games because your army is inferior.

Army that's equal to marines isn't broken. It's equal.

Spoletta wrote:
Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?

Chaos doesn't have the worst win rate of any faction. Tyranids do.

They need a straight power boost, not access to more sidegrades.

Can i ask you what scares your nids of the eldar non airwing units? I can't think of anything honestly. Same for Chaos (after disco lord nerf). I don't see any build out there that is an hard obstacle for my nids. Only the current Tau castles are a problem, and i don't think that they are getting out of CA unharmed.

I currently play against those factions with a list made of only rubric marines, scarab terminators and demon engines. No DPs or Tzangors. The result is that i have an exactly 50% W/L so far if i don't consider my matches against marines (in the competitive store, CA18 missions).

If i can do it with fluffy TS, i surely don't have problems with nids.

I have shelved my nids due to marines, because i didn't find funny the way they outshooted and outmeleed my bugs with basic troops. They have to be brought down or the game will suffer,

As for adaptations, we don't yet know if we will get a stratagem to purchase additional ones, but i think that we have a good 90% chance of that actually being the case. Since it would be a pregame stratagem, by rules you would be able to look at the opposing army and then go shopping for adaptations. It would be immensely thematic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?

Chaos doesn't have the worst win rate of any faction. Tyranids do.

They need a straight power boost, not access to more sidegrades.

And why should we receive a direct power boost in a supplement? Supplements are always about sidegrades (except for marines).
Not to mention that we did receive a power boost, since our WT and relics are really bad anything is an improvement in that regard.

Spoletta wrote:
Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?

Seriously, i understand that right now everyone is blinded by the OPness of marines and wants his faction to get on the same level, but it would be a huge mistake for the game. The right course of action right now is to just reduce the power level of marines, not to increase everyone to that level.

If i look at the tyranids in the light of this update and ask myself, "Do i see myself able to go toe to toe with the new sisters, chaos after the disco nerf, CWE after the airwing nerf, necrons post buff and in general every non marine faction out there?" i'm quite confident that i could have some quite intereseting games and have a fair chance at winning without even having to rely on the GS bomb. It is just Tau that i think would give me big problems, but we have not had any CA spoilers on them.

Actually, if you take the marines out of the picture for a moment, the game has never been so balanced. So everyone asking for all factions to be brought up instead of marines being brought down, is not driving the game in a good direction.

The solution would be easy IMHO. Make the marine supplements, actual supplements. So if you get your super doctrine, you lose the AP-1 on that phase. If you get the specific stratagems you lose the generic stratagems, same for relics traits and powers.

Make it so that no matter if you go codex only or codex + supplement, you have the same amount of effects in play and number of choices. Supplements should be optional.

PA supplements right now have been greatly designed for non-marines, they always offer lateral choices. If there are new mechanics like demon weapons and byo adaptations, they come at the cost of something you had. This is the correct way to make a supplement.

YEAH and the Daemon Weapons are pretty bad overall. It's absolutely ridiculous that we have to rely on a roll and there's a reasonable chance you get NOTHING unless you spend for the reroll. Why would I bother with the garbage Khorne Sword relic when I could just use the Chainaxe or Glaive relics and get something reliable?

It's just poor writing, period.

Spoletta wrote:
Can i ask you what scares your nids of the eldar non airwing units? I can't think of anything honestly. Same for Chaos (after disco lord nerf). I don't see any build out there that is an hard obstacle for my nids. Only the current Tau castles are a problem, and i don't think that they are getting out of CA unharmed.

I currently play against those factions with a list made of only rubric marines, scarab terminators and demon engines. No DPs or Tzangors. The result is that i have an exactly 50% W/L so far if i don't consider my matches against marines (in the competitive store, CA18 missions).

If i can do it with fluffy TS, i surely don't have problems with nids.

I have shelved my nids due to marines, because i didn't find funny the way they outshooted and outmeleed my bugs with basic troops. They have to be brought down or the game will suffer,

As for adaptations, we don't yet know if we will get a stratagem to purchase additional ones, but i think that we have a good 90% chance of that actually being the case. Since it would be a pregame stratagem, by rules you would be able to look at the opposing army and then go shopping for adaptations. It would be immensely thematic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?

Chaos doesn't have the worst win rate of any faction. Tyranids do.

They need a straight power boost, not access to more sidegrades.

And why should we receive a direct power boost in a supplement? Supplements are always about sidegrades (except for marines).
Not to mention that we did receive a power boost, since our WT and relics are really bad anything is an improvement in that regard.

Hey man, get in touch with Sean Nayden and Nick Nanavati about how to win with Rubrics and Scarabs, I bet they could use your advice!

Don't take that the wrong way, it was a joke. Just saying, nobody's winning with that stuff across the world. I know you said you're playing the strongest folks in your country but maybe they're neutering their lists in their friendly games. Because that stuff won't cut it in anything serious, and neither will 98% of Nids lists. Hence, the request for stronger Nids stuff in this book. Thus far, I think it will be a letdown.

Well yeah, it you expected this to buff us to the top of the meta or on par with SM, it will be a huge letdown. Sorry if you had those expectations.

By the way, almost all of the strongest folks here have switched to SM, so they don't appear in that statistic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My point was that there isn't a really big gap between non SM factions right now, especially after the announced nerfs.

Spoletta wrote:
Well yeah, it you expected this to buff us to the top of the meta or on par with SM, it will be a huge letdown. Sorry if you had those expectations.

By the way, almost all of the strongest folks here have switched to SM, so they don't appear in that statistic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My point was that there isn't a really big gap between non SM factions right now, especially after the announced nerfs.

People didn't expect a buff to marine levels of competitiveness. They hoped for a similar effort and treatment in terms of rules. They didn't get it. This is why they are upset.

However you cut it, Nids are one of the worst performing armies in the game, they are now below Dark Angels in terms of win percentage sitting somewhere like 31%. Nu Marines wipe the floor with them, and other factions manage to routinely beat them too. The gap between factions still exists.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Well yeah, it you expected this to buff us to the top of the meta or on par with SM, it will be a huge letdown. Sorry if you had those expectations.

By the way, almost all of the strongest folks here have switched to SM, so they don't appear in that statistic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My point was that there isn't a really big gap between non SM factions right now, especially after the announced nerfs.

People didn't expect a buff to marine levels of competitiveness. They hoped for a similar effort and treatment in terms of rules. They didn't get it. This is why they are upset.

However you cut it, Nids are one of the worst performing armies in the game, they are now below Dark Angels in terms of win percentage sitting somewhere like 31%. Nu Marines wipe the floor with them, and other factions manage to routinely beat them too. The gap between factions still exists.

If they didn't expect a power boost why quote win rates? Interesting rules dont mean game winning rules and I think people have a hard time separating those two.

Nids do need a boost but dont make the problem worse by wanting then to be marines level, again bring them down a notch rather than wanting every faction to be reworked.

Dudeface wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Well yeah, it you expected this to buff us to the top of the meta or on par with SM, it will be a huge letdown. Sorry if you had those expectations.

By the way, almost all of the strongest folks here have switched to SM, so they don't appear in that statistic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My point was that there isn't a really big gap between non SM factions right now, especially after the announced nerfs.

People didn't expect a buff to marine levels of competitiveness. They hoped for a similar effort and treatment in terms of rules. They didn't get it. This is why they are upset.

However you cut it, Nids are one of the worst performing armies in the game, they are now below Dark Angels in terms of win percentage sitting somewhere like 31%. Nu Marines wipe the floor with them, and other factions manage to routinely beat them too. The gap between factions still exists.

If they didn't expect a power boost why quote win rates? Interesting rules dont mean game winning rules and I think people have a hard time separating those two.

Because Spoletta claimed, falsely, that the gap between factions was small. I was responding to that.

yeah it's hard to take people saying they want "intreasting rules" when they focus so heavily on tourny results.

Boy the SM player are in a bubble of denial that is borderline scary. This is a game/hobby/interest and people just straight up trade reality and objectivity for their own interests and fear. Can you picture what happens with politics and religion?!

You guys might want to get a reality check.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

Nids sucks. Is a fact.

Yea the space marine players continually making excuses for and defending their obviously OP rules that have much greater depth than other factions are losing all credibility. It's obvious that some players want 40k to become 30k. Its embarrassing.

Dudeface wrote:

Nids do need a boost but dont make the problem worse by wanting then to be marines level, again bring them down a notch rather than wanting every faction to be reworked.

Problem is gw isn't going to delete tons of rules from marine codex nor are they going to up points needed amount as that would mean significant amount of less money needed to buy army.

That boat sailed away long time. Others either need tons of new rules or point drops but for that not much room.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Well yeah, it you expected this to buff us to the top of the meta or on par with SM, it will be a huge letdown. Sorry if you had those expectations.

By the way, almost all of the strongest folks here have switched to SM, so they don't appear in that statistic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My point was that there isn't a really big gap between non SM factions right now, especially after the announced nerfs.

People didn't expect a buff to marine levels of competitiveness. They hoped for a similar effort and treatment in terms of rules. They didn't get it. This is why they are upset.

However you cut it, Nids are one of the worst performing armies in the game, they are now below Dark Angels in terms of win percentage sitting somewhere like 31%. Nu Marines wipe the floor with them, and other factions manage to routinely beat them too. The gap between factions still exists.

If they didn't expect a power boost why quote win rates? Interesting rules dont mean game winning rules and I think people have a hard time separating those two.

Because Spoletta claimed, falsely, that the gap between factions was small. I was responding to that.

The few Numbers available actually say the opposite, but there isn't a data sample big enough to make conclusions, so we can only go by personal experience. And no 40k stats means less than zero in this discussion since I specified that we play CA18.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea the space marine players continually making excuses for and defending their obviously OP rules that have much greater depth than other factions are losing all credibility. It's obvious that some players want 40k to become 30k. Its embarrassing.

no one is defending the marines. and the fact that you keep insisting on this makes me question your reading comprehension. what people are saying is that if you expect to see a chapter tactics revision in PA you're going to be dissappointed. this isn't defending marines (I've been saying since the marine codex launched that Iron Hands is a problem even compared to the other marine chapters it's CLEARLY got issues that are glareingly obvious) this is telling people to be realistic about their expectations.

I mean, it is pretty sad, to see the adaptations handled that way.
I'd love to see a really adapted swarm.

I am however also happy to see not ANOTHER IH / IF tier bs level added.

PA sofar has for non IoM been a real let down.

Edit: it's like the non marines get tablescraps comparatively and has to make do, and i for one can't wait until CA 2020.
It's also shamefull because you really get to see the favouritism going on.

Why are people acting like marines have been op for years? Did anyone genuinely believe some stop gap rules in a campaign book would be equal to a full (9th ed ready) codex plus supplements?

JSG wrote:
Why are people acting like marines have been op for years? Did anyone genuinely believe some stop gap rules in a campaign book would be equal to a full (9th ed ready) codex plus supplements?

There is no such thing as a 9th edition ready or 8.5 edition Codex.

The campaign is perfectly reasonable to the meta (except for Marines), just as the vigilus campaign was. Marines are just a random outlier that needs to be corrected again as they did with previous outliers like Ynnari.

JSG wrote:
Why are people acting like marines have been op for years? Did anyone genuinely believe some stop gap rules in a campaign book would be equal to a full (9th ed ready) codex plus supplements?

They have been top tier for the past 5 years at least. I still remember the skyhammer formation and the other detachment that made ALL.TRANSPORTS.FREE, ending up with the Astartes player playing 2600 pts to the enemy's 2000. and it really doesn't matter if they have been OP for one day or forever. Right now Astartes break the game. Right now everyone but GW understands it. Right now the PA and CA do NOTHING to fix this. Right now we have every right to state the obvious.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea the space marine players continually making excuses for and defending their obviously OP rules that have much greater depth than other factions are losing all credibility. It's obvious that some players want 40k to become 30k. Its embarrassing.

no one is defending the marines. and the fact that you keep insisting on this makes me question your reading comprehension. what people are saying is that if you expect to see a chapter tactics revision in PA you're going to be dissappointed. this isn't defending marines (I've been saying since the marine codex launched that Iron Hands is a problem even compared to the other marine chapters it's CLEARLY got issues that are glareingly obvious) this is telling people to be realistic about their expectations.

You've been doing nothing but defend Marines and their absurd power boost for months now.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

JSG wrote:
Why are people acting like marines have been op for years? Did anyone genuinely believe some stop gap rules in a campaign book would be equal to a full (9th ed ready) codex plus supplements?

There is no such thing as a 9th edition ready or 8.5 edition Codex.

The campaign is perfectly reasonable to the meta (except for Marines), just as the vigilus campaign was. Marines are just a random outlier that needs to be corrected again as they did with previous outliers like Ynnari.

Well there is. The SM codex is one.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

JSG wrote:
Why are people acting like marines have been op for years? Did anyone genuinely believe some stop gap rules in a campaign book would be equal to a full (9th ed ready) codex plus supplements?

They have been top tier for the past 5 years at least. I still remember the skyhammer formation and the other detachment that made ALL.TRANSPORTS.FREE, ending up with the Astartes player playing 2600 pts to the enemy's 2000. and it really doesn't matter if they have been OP for one day or forever. Right now Astartes break the game. Right now everyone but GW understands it. Right now the PA and CA do NOTHING to fix this. Right now we have every right to state the obvious.

Top tier isn't op and no sane person would think SM shouldn't be top tier anyway. For the record I don't play, so thanks for clearing things up. It seems like a fairly transient problem that'll be cleared up in six months or so.

I don’t know why but I’m getting insanely impatient to find out if the Red Thirst is getting a second rule like Flesh Tearers are getting. I don’t think they necessarily need it, since marines are really good now, but it just seems odd to give their successor a better rule for no real reason. Then again, it sort of happened to Chaos.

JSG wrote:


Well there is. The SM codex is one.

No. It's not. Aside from being broken as hell, it's just an 8th Ed. Codex.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea the space marine players continually making excuses for and defending their obviously OP rules that have much greater depth than other factions are losing all credibility. It's obvious that some players want 40k to become 30k. Its embarrassing.

no one is defending the marines. and the fact that you keep insisting on this makes me question your reading comprehension. what people are saying is that if you expect to see a chapter tactics revision in PA you're going to be dissappointed. this isn't defending marines (I've been saying since the marine codex launched that Iron Hands is a problem even compared to the other marine chapters it's CLEARLY got issues that are glareingly obvious) this is telling people to be realistic about their expectations.

Yet gw is happy to do that level of changes in pa. As long as it's loyalist marines. Those get actual codex level upgrades. Silly npc factions just get 3rd grade stuff as crumbles while lined up to be slaughtered by the real factions like npc's are supposed to be

Top tier isn't op and no sane person would think SM shouldn't be top tier anyway. For the record I don't play, so thanks for clearing things up. It seems like a fairly transient problem that'll be cleared up in six months or so.

Astartes at the moment are not "top tier", they completely break the game. During October, in all the major tournaments around the world, they had more top-5 placings than all the other armies combined.. Astartes had 31 top-5 placings, whereas the second army (Tau I think) had 4 or 5.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Top tier isn't op and no sane person would think SM shouldn't be top tier anyway. For the record I don't play, so thanks for clearing things up. It seems like a fairly transient problem that'll be cleared up in six months or so.

Astartes at the moment are not "top tier", they completely break the game. During October, in all the major tournaments around the world, they had more top-5 placings than all the other armies combined.. Astartes had 31 top-5 placings, whereas the second army (Tau I think) had 4 or 5.

The funny thing is that is ONLY SM players that are in denial bubble.
Also those stats counts only top 4 right? Because all the other tournaments I´ve been or seen the result on BPC makes me wanna vomit. SM are not only top 4, they are 80% of the top 20. How in the feth can anybody think that is a good thing, is beyond me.