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How would they make non-Psychic Marines? Psychic powers are baked into their Geneseed. And TS Geneseed is going to be in short supply with the vast majority of the Legion being dust.

I'm hoping Daemons are going to get something out of the Psychic Awakening.

They have kinda been left out in the cold a bit with everyone else getting new rules, warlord traits, formations, relics etc.

 dan2026 wrote:
I'm hoping Daemons are going to get something out of the Psychic Awakening.

They have kinda been left out in the cold a bit with everyone else getting new rules, warlord traits, formations, relics etc.

They're on the list to but atm they almost need a total overhaul imo.

 dan2026 wrote:
I'm hoping Daemons are going to get something out of the Psychic Awakening.

They have kinda been left out in the cold a bit with everyone else getting new rules, warlord traits, formations, relics etc.

Yeah I'm with you here. As for the plaguebearer spam + Thousand Sons supreme cmd, I really don't care what they think. +1pt per model in Chapter Approved was gentle lolll. Thousand Sons will only get abused more after PA: IV which is why I am hoping they get some really nice pure-TS bonuses.

I don't think we'll see any demons here.. This is on Sortiarius/Prospero... There are Rubricae and Sorcerers.. Not mortal TS tactical marines.. Why are people so interested in getting rid of the Rubricae? They need to be made better, not obsolete...

 Brometheus wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
I'm hoping Daemons are going to get something out of the Psychic Awakening.

They have kinda been left out in the cold a bit with everyone else getting new rules, warlord traits, formations, relics etc.

Yeah I'm with you here. As for the plaguebearer spam + Thousand Sons supreme cmd, I really don't care what they think. +1pt per model in Chapter Approved was gentle lolll. Thousand Sons will only get abused more after PA: IV which is why I am hoping they get some really nice pure-TS bonuses.

I don't think we'll see any demons here.. This is on Sortiarius/Prospero... There are Rubricae and Sorcerers.. Not mortal TS tactical marines.. Why are people so interested in getting rid of the Rubricae? They need to be made better, not obsolete...

I'm wouldn't want to get rid of Rubricae. I'd want to be able to field mono Thousand Sons without a bunch of demons to fill in the cracks. But then I'm not a huge fan of the demon sculps.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I'm hoping PA gives Thousand Sons Tzeentch Arcanites, Gaunt Summoners and Ogroid Thaumaturges. I don't think those have 40k rules yet and that would really help fill out their force org.

Whilst I like this, I kinda wish they'd get more... thousand sons and less sigmar to pad the range out.

I concur. I'd love to see some non-Rubric marines. Is there anything stopping the Sons from creating new non-psyker marines? They can induct new sorcerers, but would a new marine just immediately suffer the Rubric?

Or something that shows the Thousand Sons fighting in a slower, methodical, legionnary style compared to loyalist or standard chaos marines.

Everyone seems to want Rubric Havocs, Rubric bikers, Rubric assault marines when they ask for more rubric stuff. Personally, I'd rather see more magical/corrupted versions of old legion equipment in the way we got the Soulreaper rotor cannons or whole squads equipped with flamers (sadly, those are only cool in concept right now because throughout 8th they've been total ass in practice, as have all flamers.)

So we could have Rubric havocs and that might be neat, certainly wouldn't mind a way to rely on rubric units for my anti-tank fighting without having to do a totally custom vindicator or predator without having to start with the gaudy and awful chaos pred/vindy. But it'd be cool to see them bring back a corrupted version of a Volkite Culverin rather than just the usual lascannon/missile launcher/heavy bolter. A Rubric artillery unit would be a perfect fit IMO, with Rapier/Quad-launcher/Graviton Cannon as the basis for whatever the sorcerors have cooked up.

Basically, I think they should explore bringing some of the elements they introduced into 30k back into 40k through the Thousand Sons, who among the chaos legions are probably the most likely to be fighting exactly as they were in the heresy, there not being a whole bunch of technological progress among the dusty lads.

Being able to use more of the HH era units for the various Marine Chapters (loyal and heretic) as well as Ad Mech and Sisters of Silence would be good.

Would also mean less design and production dedicated to the same old chosen sub factions and likely less goofy models.

I think the entire issue with Thousand Sons is that the spells are supposed to provide two things, and they do not:

1. A high risk/high reward toolkit for filling in gaps (AT)

2. A way to insert the trickery of Tzeentch into the game.

For more on #2, see what Disciples of Tzeentch do in Age of Sigmar....

Access to a Venomcrawler or more demon engines is not the answer and is neither fluffy nor appropriate. The army as it is needs adjustments.

What the heck are you guys wanting to do with a unit of Rubric Marines with 4 soulreaper cannons? How much 40k do you actually play with Rubricae where you can say that is a good option over Rubricae with just bolters... Wishes like that make me wonder what kind of lists you play against

I hate how Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.

 Crimson wrote:
I hate hoe Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.

Yeah if only there was some kind of chaos space marine faction you could dedicate to any of the four gods, giving you access to mutant units like spawn, possessed, crazy mutant daemon engines and the like.

If only!

We need another marine codex to solve this injustice!

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I hate how Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.

Yeah if only there was some kind of chaos space marine faction you could dedicate to any of the four gods, giving you access to mutant units like spawn, possessed, crazy mutant daemon engines and the like.

If only!

We need another marine codex to solve this injustice!

There doesn't need to be a separate codex, but dedication to gods does precious little outside the cult units. And most of the dedicated Tzeentch stuff is in the Thousand Sons book. And Rubric marines are not the same than other cult troops. Non-DG Nurgle marines can still be plague marines, non-WE Khorne marines can be berserkers, non-EC Slaanesh marines can be noise marines. But non-TS Tzeentch marines would not be rubrics. I really wish they would do more with mutation and change in CSM line in general.

 Crimson wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I hate how Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.

Yeah if only there was some kind of chaos space marine faction you could dedicate to any of the four gods, giving you access to mutant units like spawn, possessed, crazy mutant daemon engines and the like.

If only!

We need another marine codex to solve this injustice!

There doesn't need to be a separate codex, but dedication to gods does precious little outside the cult units. And most of the dedicated Tzeentch stuff is in the Thousand Sons book. And Rubric marines are not the same than other cult troops. Non-DG Nurgle marines can still be plague marines, non-WE Khorne marines can be berserkers, non-EC Slaanesh marines can be noise marines. But non-TS Tzeentch marines would not be rubrics. I really wish they would do more with mutation and change in CSM line in general.

I think failing repeatedly at doing decent mutations in the various possessed/chaos spawn kits has largely put them off doing mutations.
They tend to look hysterically goofy rather than grim and nasty.

 Crimson wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I hate how Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.

Yeah if only there was some kind of chaos space marine faction you could dedicate to any of the four gods, giving you access to mutant units like spawn, possessed, crazy mutant daemon engines and the like.

If only!

We need another marine codex to solve this injustice!

There doesn't need to be a separate codex, but dedication to gods does precious little outside the cult units. And most of the dedicated Tzeentch stuff is in the Thousand Sons book. And Rubric marines are not the same than other cult troops. Non-DG Nurgle marines can still be plague marines, non-WE Khorne marines can be berserkers, non-EC Slaanesh marines can be noise marines. But non-TS Tzeentch marines would not be rubrics. I really wish they would do more with mutation and change in CSM line in general.

You know you can use Rubric Marines in, say, a Scourged army, right? Or even Black Legion? Or, really, anything that isn't Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh?

 Crimson wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I hate how Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.

Yeah if only there was some kind of chaos space marine faction you could dedicate to any of the four gods, giving you access to mutant units like spawn, possessed, crazy mutant daemon engines and the like.

If only!

We need another marine codex to solve this injustice!

There doesn't need to be a separate codex, but dedication to gods does precious little outside the cult units. And most of the dedicated Tzeentch stuff is in the Thousand Sons book. And Rubric marines are not the same than other cult troops. Non-DG Nurgle marines can still be plague marines, non-WE Khorne marines can be berserkers, non-EC Slaanesh marines can be noise marines. But non-TS Tzeentch marines would not be rubrics. I really wish they would do more with mutation and change in CSM line in general.

You mean like Tzaangors? Those duders who are explicitly natives of the planet of Sorcerors and who in the lore for 40k don't make sense joining other Tzeentch-affiliated warbands?

Because the only other thing that's not explicitly rubrics that's unique to the Tsons book is the mutalith beast.

I think my reaction to this is just frustration with the embarrassment of riches that any marine faction has when wanting to create custom rules. Let's say I want to create a Tzeentch-focused, non Tsons Chaos Space Marine army.

There's rules for the non-legion warbands, including one that's explicitly Tzeentch-focused in the Scourged. I get a special banner power, two relics, a stratagem, a tzeentch-specific psychic power as well as a whole discipline centering around the daemonkin units with the Master of Possession. I've got Possessed, Spawn, Obliterators, Mutilators, all the daemon engines, greater possessed, and warp talons if I want explicitly mutated units. I can even take those guys in a special detachment to make my army even more mutation-centric.

Now let's say I want to represent a somewhat different Drukhari Kabal, maybe one focused on sadistic melee killing rather than gunsy shoot times.

Well, I can use the custom kabal traits to give myself bonuses with melee weapons. That doesn't give my models melee weapons though, they have to use the trusty ol' S user Ap- D1 close combat weapon. And I don't get to have a relic or a stratagem to go with that. I could take some corsairs, which have some melee weapon options, but they actually break battleforged benefits entirely if you have any of them in your army and are officially illegal otherwise since you can't take mixed aeldari detachments anymore.

Voss wrote:

I think failing repeatedly at doing decent mutations in the various possessed/chaos spawn kits has largely put them off doing mutations.
They tend to look hysterically goofy rather than grim and nasty.

I think Gal Vorbak are pretty awesome. I'd like to see something like this in 40K.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

You know you can use Rubric Marines in, say, a Scourged army, right? Or even Black Legion? Or, really, anything that isn't Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh?

That's not the point though. Rubric Marines are specific thing, not something non-TS Tzeetch worshipping CSM would ever become.

Dudeface wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
I'm hoping Daemons are going to get something out of the Psychic Awakening.

They have kinda been left out in the cold a bit with everyone else getting new rules, warlord traits, formations, relics etc.

They're on the list to but atm they almost need a total overhaul imo.

I agree. I think the Daemon codex needs rewriting from scrach.
Greater Daemons in particular need a complete rules redo.
They keep lowering, lowering, lowering their points, but that doesnt fix them.
Their rules are fundementally kinda crappy in 40k. They work for Sigmar but not 40k where everyone has a pocket lascanon.

the_scotsman wrote:

They also have chapter tactics from the same era as space marines (sorry, CSM players...) and they're in a weird rules situation where now they have exactly 1 model (the dunerider) that does not benefit from chapter tactics. Because they had the old "infantry and walker" chapter tactic wording, but previously all their stuff was walkers so effectively everything benefitted from their chapter tactics.

2.0 codex, a couple new models, redesigned CT's and stratagems, and a reworking of Canticles to boost up the little used ones and make them a "purity bonus" ala combat doctrines.

our forgeworld dogmas apply to all our models from GW except daedalosus, only the secutariis from FW dont benefit from them.

 Crimson wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

You know you can use Rubric Marines in, say, a Scourged army, right? Or even Black Legion? Or, really, anything that isn't Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh?

That's not the point though. Rubric Marines are specific thing, not something non-TS Tzeetch worshipping CSM would ever become.

This is not true. Theres many non-TS rubrics. Be them space marines that were made rubric by TS sorcererrs for a Chaos Lord in exchange of something, or other chaos sorcererrs that have learned to do lesser versions of Ahriman's Rubric.

 Galas wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

You know you can use Rubric Marines in, say, a Scourged army, right? Or even Black Legion? Or, really, anything that isn't Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh?

That's not the point though. Rubric Marines are specific thing, not something non-TS Tzeetch worshipping CSM would ever become.

This is not true. Theres many non-TS rubrics. Be them space marines that were made rubric by TS sorcererrs for a Chaos Lord in exchange of something, or other chaos sorcererrs that have learned to do lesser versions of Ahriman's Rubric.

They are not Chaos Marines dedicated to and blessed by Tzeetch. Rubric was specifically created to avoid the gifts of Tzeetch There are no real Tzeetch dedicated cult marines.

 Crimson wrote:

Voss wrote:

I think failing repeatedly at doing decent mutations in the various possessed/chaos spawn kits has largely put them off doing mutations.
They tend to look hysterically goofy rather than grim and nasty.

I think Gal Vorbak are pretty awesome. I'd like to see something like this in 40K.

Yeah, they could call them something like, better possessed? No, I got it,... Greater Possessed!

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

Yeah, they could call them something like, better possessed? No, I got it,... Greater Possessed!

Which are characters, you can't have a squad of them.

 Crimson wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

Yeah, they could call them something like, better possessed? No, I got it,... Greater Possessed!

Which are characters, you can't have a squad of them.

I'm pretty sure that was a joke

-

 Mr Morden wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

We have seen the new Ad Mech flyer but that might be it (its a great looking model IMO) - or it could be just artwork...

Eh we have seen the model already. It's not artwork. Don't go hyperbole and say no other than marines never receive any new models.

I meant it might not be in the "Ad Mech PA" - its not a character so less likely I think -unless there is named pilot version. An Alpha Skitarri would be a great bonus though....

Agree the cool Ornithopter model is coming out but it might not be linked or at least not obviously (see the "Faith" PA and the cocked up Sisters pre-release)

"or it could just be art work" tends to make one conclude you're assuming there's no mini. that said I think it's more likely we'll see the admech stuff in the book. Sisters didn't have a codex. expecting a codex update before the codex update is... obviously a differant animal.

 Crimson wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

You know you can use Rubric Marines in, say, a Scourged army, right? Or even Black Legion? Or, really, anything that isn't Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh?

That's not the point though. Rubric Marines are specific thing, not something non-TS Tzeetch worshipping CSM would ever become.

This is not true. Theres many non-TS rubrics. Be them space marines that were made rubric by TS sorcererrs for a Chaos Lord in exchange of something, or other chaos sorcererrs that have learned to do lesser versions of Ahriman's Rubric.

They are not Chaos Marines dedicated to and blessed by Tzeetch. Rubric was specifically created to avoid the gifts of Tzeetch There are no real Tzeetch dedicated cult marines.

Pfff. No, just no.

Please stop making statements showing little to no knowledge about the things you are stating. You know that what you are referring to are more akin to possesed marines, so Word Bearers or <<insert random warband name>> possesed would represent that much better. In models, you could use the posessed kit, that has plenty of mutations and weirdness...

Thousand Sons IS the legion that became enthralled to Tzeentch, they are his most favoured servants (if such thing is possible). Tzeentch is the chaos god of Sorcery, treason, deceit, plans, plots, schemes and change. You know, mutations and undesired protrusions all over the body it's only an aspect of it, not necessarly the most important. Its more like a "side effect", I think.
Besides that, rubric marines are only one aspect of the Thousand Sons. The other major aspect, somewhat undeveloped both in miniatures and rules format, are the sorcerers. Those could have and in fact, in the miniatures have strange mutations like extra arms, beaks, etc. There are a lot of little snipets of background that could be explored and further expanded to include in the Thousand Sons, like the new recruits with psychic abilities that are inducted into the TS and ultimately become sorcerers, or the sorcerer dreadnoughts... like those, I think that there are many things that could be developed and translated in units and miniatures.

Knowing current GW, they will never do that, of course.

At least I hope there will not be more fantasy/sigmar things smashed on the Thousand sons as: "Wow look new units that totally were always part of the TS from like ever and are totally awesome using these unrelated and awfully ugly existing models!!11!!".

Why would anyone willing embrace Tzeentch? The other chaos gods are about giving in to Fury/Despair/Desire, all you have to do is let go and you'll be set on the path to damnation.

I always thought of Tzeentch as the odd man out, he wants you to struggle, fight him, and in the process assure your own damnation. That's why he offers you the tools to defy him, to seemingly avoid your fate while actually ensuring it. The thousand sons aren't his worshippers (at least not without an unhealthy dose of stockholm syndrome) they are his prisoners, and they dwell in a cage they made.

Which is why I find the 1k sons seem perfectly on note for Tzeentch, they are his but still they struggle. They try to avoid his Gifts by using the very same sorcery he gave them. Tzeentch is a spider tending a web, and he doesn't want spiders, or people who worship spiders, he wants flys.

Please stop making statements showing little to no knowledge about the things you are stating. You know that what you are referring to are more akin to possesed marines, so Word Bearers or <<insert random warband name>> possesed would represent that much better. In models, you could use the posessed kit, that has plenty of mutations and weirdness...

Possessed kit is old and ugly and the have gak rules.

And I understand the fluff just fine. The rubrics are fundamentally differnt from other cult marines. A new Tzeentch worshipping CSM probably doesn't aspire to be a rubric marine, whereas cult marines of other gods are valid 'advancement paths' to worshipper of those gods.
Furthermore, the rubric was originally developed to thwart mutations. Seem pretty rude towards Tzeentch to me!

 Warpspy wrote:
Besides that, rubric marines are only one aspect of the Thousand Sons. The other major aspect, somewhat undeveloped both in miniatures and rules format, are the sorcerers. Those could have and in fact, in the miniatures have strange mutations like extra arms, beaks, etc. There are a lot of little snipets of background that could be explored and further expanded to include in the Thousand Sons, like the new recruits with psychic abilities that are inducted into the TS and ultimately become sorcerers, or the sorcerer dreadnoughts... like those, I think that there are many things that could be developed and translated in units and miniatures.

Well, yes, this is the sort of thing I'd like to see more and they could also be used to represent non-TS Tzeentch marines.

Recently a csm list topplaced with a big possesed blob, crimson

Not Online!!! wrote:
Recently a csm list topplaced with a big possesed blob, crimson

Good to know! I wish they would update the models. I was exited when they first previewed the greater possessed, but then it turned out that it was just two monopose character models.

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Recently a csm list topplaced with a big possesed blob, crimson

Good to know! I wish they would update the models. I was exited when they first previewed the greater possessed, but then it turned out that it was just two monopose character models.

I frankly recommend leftover csm parts and then cable aswell as moss to create firey bodyparts.
That is how i'd do them, gakton off work though and i allready sit on a pile of too much unpainted csm/r&h /unfinished terrain

 Grimgold wrote:
Why would anyone willing embrace Tzeentch? The other chaos gods are about giving in to Fury/Despair/Desire, all you have to do is let go and you'll be set on the path to damnation.

I always thought of Tzeentch as the odd man out, he wants you to struggle, fight him, and in the process assure your own damnation. That's why he offers you the tools to defy him, to seemingly avoid your fate while actually ensuring it. The thousand sons aren't his worshippers (at least not without an unhealthy dose of stockholm syndrome) they are his prisoners, and they dwell in a cage they made..

Fluffwise, that isn't what Tzeentch offers. It isn't about struggling or fighting him. Its about the power of hope, change and reform.
Ambition, essentially, which is an easy sell to many people.

The TS are a bad example, because they didn't know they'd already been traded away by the real prize (Magnus), though Ahriman made a unexpected case of perhaps having greater worth than his progenitor. Since he had the ambition and drive to acquire knowledge and power, while Magnus mostly sat in his tower and brooded about how terrible he is as at bargaining.

[Aside: Nurgle is more resilience/acceptance than despair, which is why N &T are opposites. Nurgle would have mortals accept their putrefaction, Tzeentch would rather see them try to change it)