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 Nah Man Pichu wrote:


Theeee same books that don't let my Dark Angels use Ravenguard psychic powers? TS get their baseline 6 (or however many) powers plus another of 9 the player gets to choose from. How is that bad or unfair? To me it sounds like whinging about not being able to make cross-cult wombo combos.

Your comparison makes zero point zero sense. You are either being deliberately disingenuous or just plain don't understand the conversation being held here.
No one is saying Thousand sons need access to psychic powers of other armies but how about their own?

You know what would be an actual comparisson? Dark angels being able to use either Deathwing rules (stratagems, doctrine, ...) or ravenwing rules, but not both within one given game. Hopefully that sounds ridiculous to you because it does to me!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Seems like TSons players are more unhappy now than if they got nothing at all...?

Well, not entirely. New rules mean new lists means refreshing games. And we're not even sure what we're getting apart from what's been previewed.
That being said; if I see other armies getting ultra-fancy powers that are both very useful (One of the GKs tides is as useful if not more so than all is dust) while my army gets niche gak that doesn't even affect all units, then you bet I'm going to be miffed.

Dudeface wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Grey knights get a new army wide rule they can move through alongside a swathe of new psychic powers and relics they can access as they please.

Thousand sons get 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 power out of 9 sets. They are locked out of the other 8 in each detachment.

At least whats been previewed GKs got the most buffs, but honestly out of the three who needed it more? I said be honest.

It's not the number/scale of buffs but the limitations of options.

I was speaking in generalities. I agree.


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Seems like TSons players are more unhappy now than if they got nothing at all...?

I think they were excited about the early leaks/info, and the realization it doesn't change much for them can be quite disappointing.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Grey knights get a new army wide rule they can move through alongside a swathe of new psychic powers and relics they can access as they please.

Thousand sons get 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 power out of 9 sets. They are locked out of the other 8 in each detachment.

At least whats been previewed GKs got the most buffs, but honestly out of the three who needed it more? I said be honest.

It's not the number/scale of buffs but the limitations of options.

I was speaking in generalities. I agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Seems like TSons players are more unhappy now than if they got nothing at all...?

I think they were excited about the early leaks/info, and the realization it doesn't change much for them can be quite disappointing.

Some of this new stuff looks nice and will fill some holes, but the largest problem TS have is that they have no traits to improve their stats, at a time when loyalists basically have 4 (2 part chapter trait, doctrines, super doctrine bonus.) People were hoping we'd get some, or get powers/strats that were strong enough to compensate for the lack of them. But we're not getting that.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:


Some of this new stuff looks nice and will fill some holes, but the largest problem TS have is that they have no traits to improve their stats, at a time when loyalists basically have 4 (2 part chapter trait, doctrines, super doctrine bonus.) People were hoping we'd get some, or get powers/strats that were strong enough to compensate for the lack of them. But we're not getting that.

Considering a strat, relic, wl trait, and spell per cult we have seen 4 out of 36 things.

Soup within TS is also not restricted by these.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:


Some of this new stuff looks nice and will fill some holes, but the largest problem TS have is that they have no traits to improve their stats, at a time when loyalists basically have 4 (2 part chapter trait, doctrines, super doctrine bonus.) People were hoping we'd get some, or get powers/strats that were strong enough to compensate for the lack of them. But we're not getting that.

Considering a strat, relic, wl trait, and spell per cult we have seen 4 out of 36 things.

Soup within TS is also not restricted by these.

I think, for whatever reason, GW is content with chaos being the "soup faction" which.... kinda makes sense in a way. deamon summoning etc has always been a bit of a thing for chaos o the idea of running CSMs along chaos demons etc is pretty deeply engrained in the DNA of chaos. it sucks I agree but, I'm just trying to figure out their logic here

I think chaos players should just do what I do, and realize they will get a million books, but little will actually change for them as a result of such. Really keep the bar so low that any buffs will be a gift and you'll be better served. I think GW has shown they have no understanding or real care for chaos aside from selling them all of the books. Not trying to be snarky here just trying to speak honestly. I really feel bad for the chaos players who get the worlds smallest baby steps but spread out over so many publications.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I think chaos players should just do what I do, and realize they will get a million books, but little will actually change for them as a result of such. Really keep the bar so low that any buffs will be a gift and you'll be better served. I think GW has shown they have no understanding or real care for chaos aside from selling them all of the books. Not trying to be snarky here just trying to speak honestly. I really feel bad for the chaos players who get the worlds smallest baby steps but spread out over so many publications.

The part I find amusing is stuff like the model of the year poll. Chaos did really very well in the results, showing off a rather high degree of popularity..
If they had rules to match, they'd sell by the bucket.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:


Some of this new stuff looks nice and will fill some holes, but the largest problem TS have is that they have no traits to improve their stats, at a time when loyalists basically have 4 (2 part chapter trait, doctrines, super doctrine bonus.) People were hoping we'd get some, or get powers/strats that were strong enough to compensate for the lack of them. But we're not getting that.

Considering a strat, relic, wl trait, and spell per cult we have seen 4 out of 36 things.

Soup within TS is also not restricted by these.

Yes, but we can see from these things that they aren't super powerful. They are average to above average, which is nice. So they aren't going to make up the overall power gap. We're still gonna have to wait for trait overhaul's or some other sort of extra layer of special rules that Chaos marines of all stripes need if they are going to measure up to loyalists.

This is in line with what I was expecting maybe a little better. So far nothing previewed looks like absolute crap and that is something. I could see using any of the preview stuff. But there are lots of missing details. I will reserve judgment until I see full rules.

Voss wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I think chaos players should just do what I do, and realize they will get a million books, but little will actually change for them as a result of such. Really keep the bar so low that any buffs will be a gift and you'll be better served. I think GW has shown they have no understanding or real care for chaos aside from selling them all of the books. Not trying to be snarky here just trying to speak honestly. I really feel bad for the chaos players who get the worlds smallest baby steps but spread out over so many publications.

The part I find amusing is stuff like the model of the year poll. Chaos did really very well in the results, showing off a rather high degree of popularity..
If they had rules to match, they'd sell by the bucket.

chaos did more then well, it's constantly topped the model of the year polls ever since it started. at the very least you can argue that "models as art" are some of the prefered models out there.

that said each of the model of the year winners are single display models you're not likely to buy repeats of (ok I'm sure someone has a company strong army of noise marines made out of the noise marine model out there but yeah not common) So could it be that the rank and file of chaos isn't all that popular?
maybe, however I suspect a lot of people where buying things like the MK IV and MK 3 kit for chaos before the new CSM kit came out so the figures may have been a bit... wonky

the_scotsman wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

deTox91 wrote:
I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK.
No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all,
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with.
The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...

the new strat is OP and will totally feth you in half.

IMAGINE taking 20 rubrics with flamers for the low low cost of 480 pts and deploying them in your opponent's face.

thats TONS OF DAMAGE and has LITTERALLY NO COUNTERS.

Except being seized, or marines deploying their "no deepstrike allowed" units or being a super fragile expensive bomb in your opponents face.....

god i hope the sons get more interesting stuff in the rest of the book.

How?

You have to deploy more than 9 inches away and flamers have an 8 inch range. Seems absolutely worthless, I'd rather just have the warp bolters.

I mean imagine doing this with flamers vs Tau?

**Laughs in Tau Pulse Rifle supported by a Cadre*

This isn't regular plays by the rules deep strike, they're getting nu-marine bs deployment phase deep strike. So if they have turn 1 they can just walk up and shoot.

And if they don't, they get deleted. Seems pretty meh to me.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:


Some of this new stuff looks nice and will fill some holes, but the largest problem TS have is that they have no traits to improve their stats, at a time when loyalists basically have 4 (2 part chapter trait, doctrines, super doctrine bonus.) People were hoping we'd get some, or get powers/strats that were strong enough to compensate for the lack of them. But we're not getting that.

Considering a strat, relic, wl trait, and spell per cult we have seen 4 out of 36 things.

Soup within TS is also not restricted by these.

I think, for whatever reason, GW is content with chaos being the "soup faction" which.... kinda makes sense in a way. deamon summoning etc has always been a bit of a thing for chaos o the idea of running CSMs along chaos demons etc is pretty deeply engrained in the DNA of chaos. it sucks I agree but, I'm just trying to figure out their logic here

I've been getting the feeling that's how gw views chaos as well. Which is gak. Plenty of csm players want to be able to run their legion as a pure army just like loyalist players and it doesn't fit the fluff of some of the legions.

It always makes me feel dirty just giving my Night Lords marks.

I don't mind if they are soup, I mind that their infantry isn't competitive.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I don't mind if they are soup, I mind that their infantry isn't competitive.

One thing that they could do for CSMs is borrow from slaves to darkness. and give CSM characters a aura tied to their mark, that effects all units within X inches with the mark. Do something like that and you could pump the CSM power level up

deTox91 wrote:

I’m actually in doubt if the relic works with that as it states “unmodified 9+”, just as I’m not sure how this relic works with changing opponents dice and rerolls, let’s say you have a caster at 1w, you manifest a power with a roll of 6 and 1 and I change your 1 to a 6 so you peril and die...can you then reroll the natural 6 so you’d not peril? Also can you reroll the 1 if I changed your result of 6 into 1? I have a feeling this relic will require a faq

Depends on wording ofreroll. It it doesn't specify failed fair go. Orks often command reroll cast roll to smaller. Or even succesfull charge into longer one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

And if they don't, they get deleted. Seems pretty meh to me.

If you don't go first don't deploy them far out in the open. Apart from seize you know whether you go first or not when you deploy

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I don't mind if they are soup, I mind that their infantry isn't competitive.

CSM are plenty competitive.....

[this post was made by an avid R&H player]


jokes aside, i feel you.

So, the way I see it is that these are interesting and potentially open up a lot of options for Thousand Sons.

What I am pessimistic about, is how much of an auto take something like a supreme command detachment in a soup list might become, and, I am a tad annoyed at the implied “whole detachment = 1 cult” rule. Granted, it could get OP real fast if you could mix and match and that in 40k the Cults don’t really work together that much, other than to further their own goals/ruin their allies goals, but, with other armies not being restricted if they mix and match sub-factions in 1 detachment, it feels a little harsh at first.

Really hoping we get a full set of leaks like we saw with the DA stuff asap.

Which army is not restricted when mixing subfactions in one detachment?

Kdash wrote:
with other armies not being restricted if they mix and match sub-factions in 1 detachment, it feels a little harsh at first.

Well losing faction bonus is restricting.

Sadly I don't think the cults qualify as a proper subfaction, normally all subfaction have their own passive abilities that they bring to the table, cults do nothing, also TS are not a faction on their own big enough that should have proper subfaction in it at all.
They'll just dilute the content of the release making it very iffy to access the few really good bits that might come out. Let's say you want to play your Rubrics and teleporta them around, that's cult of duplicity, then when they die you'd want to bring some back to life, well you can't that's cult of time, then you'd want that new relic that's yet another cult so you need yet another detachment. I can foresee many cases where the bundle spell/trait/relic will have one of these 3 be very good and the other too be very average so to access one you'll take a hit on the other. Also somehow it all makes the army very not synergistic with itself, in the fluff would really a cult of time member refuse to cast spells on cult of change member? We really didn't need in-army segregation.
If we'd got exactly the same things but cults where never even mentioned, I bet everybody would be much more happy.

eh before this book was annoucned 1K sons fans where outright saying they wanted rules for the varying cults. can't make everyone happy I guess

BrianDavion wrote:
eh before this book was annoucned 1K sons fans where outright saying they wanted rules for the varying cults. can't make everyone happy I guess

The Sorcerers, should've been cult locked, the rubrics should be interactable regardless off cult. The rivalries are betwwen ther sorceres, not their undying underlings.

You know, if you had told me in 2002 that in 18 years Thousand Sons would have separate rules for each of their Cults and that space marine squads would have 2 wounds each and would only be able to take bolters I'd have laughed in your face. Then I would have said wtf is a Cult.

Except we don't really get cults
We get a bunch of spells, relics and warlord traits segregated to spesific combos, while all not having any army wide rule effecting anything other than our HQs. (it technically also effects shamans, rubrics and scarabs, but effectively doesn't as the range does not matter for them, and mini smites are often a trap cast causing more risks than rewards.)

Any word on data cards for the stuff the traitor legions got in faith and fury? I'd much rather pay $15 for the strategems than $40 and it would be nice to have maelstrom cards for the new tactical objectives.

BrianDavion wrote:
eh before this book was annoucned 1K sons fans where outright saying they wanted rules for the varying cults. can't make everyone happy I guess

There is a slight difference between what was wanted - Either each sorcerer could have different cults with little support (i.e. the 1 relic, trait & spell), or the army gets 1 cult with multiple spells/relics/traits opened up (although this was unlikely) vs unlocking 1 trait, 1 spell and 1 relic for the whole army.

Dudeface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
eh before this book was annoucned 1K sons fans where outright saying they wanted rules for the varying cults. can't make everyone happy I guess

There is a slight difference between what was wanted - Either each sorcerer could have different cults with little support (i.e. the 1 relic, trait & spell), or the army gets 1 cult with multiple spells/relics/traits opened up (although this was unlikely) vs unlocking 1 trait, 1 spell and 1 relic for the whole army.

Detachment it seems. So equilavent to special detachments ig, orks etc have except no cp cost so better in that.

Cults should be compared to Deathwing and Ravenwing

Both are elements of a Marine Chapter/Legion which are themselves sub factions of Marines/Chaos Marines which are subfactions of Imperium and Chaos respectively.

Once we have the books we can compare?

tneva82 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
eh before this book was annoucned 1K sons fans where outright saying they wanted rules for the varying cults. can't make everyone happy I guess

There is a slight difference between what was wanted - Either each sorcerer could have different cults with little support (i.e. the 1 relic, trait & spell), or the army gets 1 cult with multiple spells/relics/traits opened up (although this was unlikely) vs unlocking 1 trait, 1 spell and 1 relic for the whole army.

Detachment it seems. So equilavent to special detachments ig, orks etc have except no cp cost so better in that.

We know nothing about the cost or restrictions on pledging a detachment to a cult. If they are, indeed "just free real estate" then they're a decent buff (especially alongside a few more stratagems, something Tsons kind of need as their strats are very much focused on the AOS models they were trying to push Tsons players to buy in the book). Rumor prior to the release however was that this bonus required you to not bring any allies besides Daemons summoned out of the Thousand Sons codex.

That puts this more in line with Doctrines, Tides of the Warp and Rituals of Faith. Which, owing to the fact that those are all free army-wide rules that you just get at the start of your game and these are all replacements for other rules you could have used (Traits, Powers, Strats etc) would make this by far the weakest "no soup bonus" that GW has released.

This is kind of like - remember when Ork players were disappointed with the "decurion" they got in the updated Waagh Ghazghkull book in 7th? It wasn't because the rules were the worst thing ever, it was because they were orders of magnitude weaker than what other armies had gotten and seemed very low effort, and we knew at the time that this was GW washing their hands of the orks and declaring they were now even-steven with other factions.

At this point, everyone is reacting based on very incomplete information and their own assumptions. If this is just a straight buff, a mini-subfaction tactics thing for tsons - well, fine. I think that would work pretty much the same as the Eldar stuff out of PA1 - a fairly flat increase in power to the already powerful lists and units the Tsons have which will boost their competitive win percentage without doing much at all to help the army in casual play. Tsons stats will still be reflective of the performance of Ahriman+3DPs stapled on to a soup list. Whatever the most powerful cult for a supreme command detachment made up of 4 characters is, that's what will get played.

Based on the "but why no mad about eldar" thread, that buff wasn't super popular among eldar players or eldar detractors, because it basically made the problem units in the codex more obnoxious to deal with without really giving much of a reason to take the underperformers. The rich just got richer.

Personally, I welcome anything that lets me differentiate between my...god, six, incredibly different looking sorceror models. As of right now they're all locked in to bolt pistol/force staff and the only way to make them different is powers, mobility options, and relics/traits, so more of those is always better.

Hey, has anyone got Grey Knights stuff summarized? They seem to have good potential from the rules so far.