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 Imateria wrote:

Well, it's possible they've only shown off the worst things in the book for GSC, but then Craftworlds, Drukhari and Tyranids got screwed over as well so I gues each book is only allowed 1 faction to get good stuff.

If they were so badly treated why did Aeldari & Tyranids produce the highest Xenos win rates at LVO after Astartes?

I don't play the others but Tyranids got some great new stuff. When a faction doesn't get given broken Iron Hands-level rules that's not 'screwed over', it's how the game is supposed to work.

 xttz wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Well, it's possible they've only shown off the worst things in the book for GSC, but then Craftworlds, Drukhari and Tyranids got screwed over as well so I gues each book is only allowed 1 faction to get good stuff.

If they were so badly treated why did Aeldari & Tyranids produce the highest Xenos win rates at LVO after Astartes?

I don't play the others but Tyranids got some great new stuff. When a faction doesn't get given broken Iron Hands-level rules that's not 'screwed over', it's how the game is supposed to work.

LVO is house rules and not even 40k at this point. The missions and fixed deployment with magic boxes changes the game in radical ways. The fact that folks cite that event in response to genuine complaints about the core rules is concerning.

 xttz wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Well, it's possible they've only shown off the worst things in the book for GSC, but then Craftworlds, Drukhari and Tyranids got screwed over as well so I gues each book is only allowed 1 faction to get good stuff.

If they were so badly treated why did Aeldari & Tyranids produce the highest Xenos win rates at LVO after Astartes?

I don't play the others but Tyranids got some great new stuff. When a faction doesn't get given broken Iron Hands-level rules that's not 'screwed over', it's how the game is supposed to work.

They had such a low overall playrate that they don't even appear in the pie chart faction breakdown overall. I would be highly suspicious that those numbers (the tyranid, not the eldar ones) would be skewed by a low sample size of 1-2 very good players.

 xttz wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Well, it's possible they've only shown off the worst things in the book for GSC, but then Craftworlds, Drukhari and Tyranids got screwed over as well so I gues each book is only allowed 1 faction to get good stuff.

If they were so badly treated why did Aeldari & Tyranids produce the highest Xenos win rates at LVO after Astartes?

I don't play the others but Tyranids got some great new stuff. When a faction doesn't get given broken Iron Hands-level rules that's not 'screwed over', it's how the game is supposed to work.

ITC houserules where you can score points sitting behind a ruin not playing, except perhaps nuking one enemy unit that you can stack to give up a million points due to ITCs dumb secondary system. There’s a reason GSC has a sub-30% win rate in 40K vs. near or perhaps over 50% in ITC.

When GSC needs to actually play the game, they fall apart.

Also, tiny sample size.

Prepared Ambush almost had me in hysterics. It's so hilariously worthless that I don't know what to say.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Prepared Ambush almost had me in hysterics. It's so hilariously worthless that I don't know what to say.

What's even better is that whoever is running facebook is trying to justify it. *sigh* I'm hoping the other options in the book are as good as the Twisted Helix power, so far I'm not impressed.

 xttz wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Well, it's possible they've only shown off the worst things in the book for GSC, but then Craftworlds, Drukhari and Tyranids got screwed over as well so I gues each book is only allowed 1 faction to get good stuff.

If they were so badly treated why did Aeldari & Tyranids produce the highest Xenos win rates at LVO after Astartes?

I don't play the others but Tyranids got some great new stuff. When a faction doesn't get given broken Iron Hands-level rules that's not 'screwed over', it's how the game is supposed to work.

When all Xenos are in the gutter that doesn't mean much.

shinros wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Prepared Ambush almost had me in hysterics. It's so hilariously worthless that I don't know what to say.

What's even better is that whoever is running facebook is trying to justify it. *sigh* I'm hoping the other options in the book are as good as the Twisted Helix power, so far I'm not impressed.

Wow, don't be so entitled! You just can't see GW's genius at finally giving GSC a way to effectively kill, uh... Marine Scouts(?)! Yeah, why don't you write your own game if you're so good at this? Thank you GW! Take all my money, I'm about to go and buy six Neophye boxes from the webstore (but don't tell the wife hehe!).

Twisted Helix power is alright, but max 2 casters per detachment that only cast a single power without re-rolls despite being Farseer/Librarian priced for the cheaper, 4-wounds T3 version kinda limits it.

shinros wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Prepared Ambush almost had me in hysterics. It's so hilariously worthless that I don't know what to say.

What's even better is that whoever is running facebook is trying to justify it. *sigh* I'm hoping the other options in the book are as good as the Twisted Helix power, so far I'm not impressed.

No, they're not.

Here's what was said:

As we here at Warhammer Community see it this would make it possible to fire over the screening units of your opponent for example. Another idea would be to deep strike one unit in rapid fire range and another unit of neophyte hybrids behind them and have all of then shoot 2 shots.

It's almost like shock! gasp! people have differing opinions as to the value of a thing...

 Kanluwen wrote:

shinros wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Prepared Ambush almost had me in hysterics. It's so hilariously worthless that I don't know what to say.

What's even better is that whoever is running facebook is trying to justify it. *sigh* I'm hoping the other options in the book are as good as the Twisted Helix power, so far I'm not impressed.

No, they're not.

Here's what was said:

As we here at Warhammer Community see it this would make it possible to fire over the screening units of your opponent for example. Another idea would be to deep strike one unit in rapid fire range and another unit of neophyte hybrids behind them and have all of then shoot 2 shots.

It's almost like shock! gasp! people have differing opinions as to the value of a thing...

Mate, they're bloody autoguns. Burning 1CP for that, is wasteful. They're there to advertise the product, they are still trying to justify a rubbish rule.

Then don't use it. Pretend it doesn't exist.

On the best applicable unit, GSC for 1 CP situationally adds an average 10 additional Str. 3, AP-, 1 damage hits if you were to shoot at long range, netting you about 1,111 MEQ wound if the guy isn’t in cover/stealthy.

On the best applicable unit, the new 1 CP Tau averages 7,5 additional Str. 6, AP -2, 3 damage hits and an additional Str. 10, AP -3, 3 damage hit, netting nearly 12 MEQ wounds.

On parity, the Tau modular weapon Strat would need to cost 10+ CP to have a similar CP-vs-damage ratio.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Much as I do like to rag on 'Chaos Players' as a whole for seemingly never being satisfied, it wouldn't be funny if they didn't actually have something of a point.

IA:13. That's more like it. Massive. Sprawling. Just, perhaps not quite so sprawling.

I struggle to see their point to be honest.

If they think they're hard done by they need to take a long, hard look at some other factions. Big time.

On topic - where's today's news? E - found em, GSC does look weak. Guard will probably be better, the Bullgryn strat is useful.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then don't use it. Pretend it doesn't exist.

Issue is that the rule team writing something like that shows they clearly have no idea what they are doing, hence why I am hoping other options in the book are better, so for far people aren't hopeful. That's the problem people are having. Being a contrarian only really works when you have something to stand on mate.

Why is it that Tyranids and GSC get a single power for their subfactions, while SM got entire Disciplines for each of theirs?

Also, why the hell can't a Cult be descended from on of the bigger cults? Same for Hive fleets.

Unless they're showing off the worst parts of GSC like they did for Tyranids, I'm not impressed and will pass on picking this up like I passed on BoB.

 Carnikang wrote:
Why is it that Tyranids and GSC get a single power for their subfactions, while SM got entire Disciplines for each of theirs?

Because GW is looking at the production line of Primaris sadly, wishing they could squat every non-Imperial army and turn back the clock to make 40k Marines vs Marines only.

shinros wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then don't use it. Pretend it doesn't exist.

Issue is that the rule team writing something like that shows they clearly have no idea what they are doing, hence why I am hoping other options in the book are better, so for far people aren't hopeful. That's the problem people are having. Being a contrarian only really works when you have something to stand on mate.

The rules team isn't the one running the page nor giving the opinion. You know that right?

As we here at Warhammer Community see it this would make it possible to fire over the screening units of your opponent for example. Another idea would be to deep strike one unit in rapid fire range and another unit of neophyte hybrids behind them and have all of then shoot 2 shots.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

except perhaps nuking one enemy unit that you can stack to give up a million points due to ITCs dumb secondary system.

actually, ITC doesn't let you get points for more than one secondary that require killing stuff....

Sunny Side Up wrote:
On the best applicable unit, GSC for 1 CP situationally adds an average 10 additional Str. 3, AP-, 1 damage hits if you were to shoot at long range, netting you about 1,111 MEQ wound if the guy isn’t in cover/stealthy.

On the best applicable unit, the new 1 CP Tau averages 7,5 additional Str. 6, AP -2, 3 damage hits and an additional Str. 10, AP -3, 3 damage hit, netting nearly 12 MEQ wounds.

On parity, the Tau modular weapon Strat would need to cost 10+ CP to have a similar CP-vs-damage ratio.

Tbh we know they're re-writing the FW rules atm and that suit is an outlier for that strat, it's almost the only unit worth using it on and costs 400 points.

Don't get me wrong that gsc strat is woeful compared to a lot of stuff but it's still there for use and if you seriously have too many cp it's still a marginal buff.

 Kanluwen wrote:

shinros wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then don't use it. Pretend it doesn't exist.

Issue is that the rule team writing something like that shows they clearly have no idea what they are doing, hence why I am hoping other options in the book are better, so for far people aren't hopeful. That's the problem people are having. Being a contrarian only really works when you have something to stand on mate.

The rules team isn't the one running the page nor giving the opinion. You know that right?

As we here at Warhammer Community see it this would make it possible to fire over the screening units of your opponent for example. Another idea would be to deep strike one unit in rapid fire range and another unit of neophyte hybrids behind them and have all of then shoot 2 shots.

Ah the semantics game, because how I see it that was what was likely going through the rule teams head, thinking they were clever writing such a thing. If GW wants to run a social platform, those on it are their face so when they say something it belongs to warhammer. End of. They are writing that down to get you to buy the product.

Sure, it's "the semantics game".

You claimed it was the rules team writing it. You then accused me of being a contrarian.

You were wrong about who wrote the blurb, it's pretty clear that they weren't defending it but saying how they would use it and you just want an excuse to whinge.

"Wow, this rule is useless"

"THEN DON'T USE IT! Duh! pretend it doesn't exist! Dummy!"

"Yeah, man, that's what I was gonna do. It's why I just called it useless."

 Kanluwen wrote:
Sure, it's "the semantics game".

You claimed it was the rules team writing it. You then accused me of being a contrarian.

You were wrong about who wrote the blurb, it's pretty clear that they weren't defending it but saying how they would use it and you just want an excuse to whinge.

They're defending it because they are the warhammer community team since their job is to advertise the product for people to buy. The community team is the players gateway to the company, how do you know the community team haven't talked to the rule writers to come up with that? How do you know they weren't given a list of things to say in light of that article being prepared? I consider them one in the same, you don't.

That new GSC autogun strat is not as worthless as some people believe.

As an almost pure neophyte Cult player, I often run multiple full sized blobs of neophytes, armed with Mining Lasers and Grenade Launchers. One of the big problems I have found is being able to cram all my deepstriking shooting into rapid fire range. I have previously got round this by using the Lying in Wait strat to let me get within 3" but it still causes me a big headache when I am Ambushing 120 infantry in a turn.
This lets me have another full blob of infantry Ambush comfortably without losing out on any firepower.

Does the Tau strat allow for more raw damage output. Sure. But the cult strat is a good tool to have and gives the cult more tactical flexibility.

I am personally quite happy with this strat, because it has some good tactical uses, is only 1 CP but isn't totally broken. It is a great example of what a stratagem should be!

I am not a GW fan boy by any means, I think the current state of 8th is really bad thanks to marines. But People cry when GW releases OP stuff and then they also cry when GW releases normal power level stuff. I guess we all wish GW could just be more consistent.

Yeah, I can see how Prepared Ambush could be useful for making sure you can get everyone in range. I don't see the problem

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
That new GSC autogun strat is not as worthless as some people believe.

As an almost pure neophyte Cult player, I often run multiple full sized blobs of neophytes, armed with Mining Lasers and Grenade Launchers. One of the big problems I have found is being able to cram all my deepstriking shooting into rapid fire range. I have previously got round this by using the Lying in Wait strat to let me get within 3" but it still causes me a big headache when I am Ambushing 120 infantry in a turn.
This lets me have another full blob of infantry Ambush comfortably without losing out on any firepower.

Does the Tau strat allow for more raw damage output. Sure. But the cult strat is a good tool to have and gives the cult more tactical flexibility.

I am personally quite happy with this strat, because it has some good tactical uses, is only 1 CP but isn't totally broken. It is a great example of what a stratagem should be!

I am not a GW fan boy by any means, I think the current state of 8th is really bad thanks to marines. But People cry when GW releases OP stuff and then they also cry when GW releases normal power level stuff. I guess we all wish GW could just be more consistent.

Hi FBNS,

This is a really interesting viewpoint. But can I ask how much impact you expect to get out of this? From my experience, neophytes damage comes not from the autoguns but the special weapons. Getting more autogun shots for 1 CP just seems a waste of CP.

The most you can get out of this is 20 additional S3 AP0 shots. Basic mathhammer:

20 shots, 10 hits.
Against GEQ that is 5 wounds and around 3 dead GEQs.
Against MEQs that is 3.33 wounds and only 1.11 dead MEQ (or a half dead primaris).
Yes you could add in the Alphus but at that point you are not only investing CP but an HQ choice to get a bit more of a buff.

Yes it's flexible, but what will it actually achieve?

 mould2k wrote:


Yes it's flexible, but what will it actually achieve?

Hopefully it will achieve an errata to Rapid Fire 2.

 mould2k wrote:

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
That new GSC autogun strat is not as worthless as some people believe.

As an almost pure neophyte Cult player, I often run multiple full sized blobs of neophytes, armed with Mining Lasers and Grenade Launchers. One of the big problems I have found is being able to cram all my deepstriking shooting into rapid fire range. I have previously got round this by using the Lying in Wait strat to let me get within 3" but it still causes me a big headache when I am Ambushing 120 infantry in a turn.
This lets me have another full blob of infantry Ambush comfortably without losing out on any firepower.

Does the Tau strat allow for more raw damage output. Sure. But the cult strat is a good tool to have and gives the cult more tactical flexibility.

I am personally quite happy with this strat, because it has some good tactical uses, is only 1 CP but isn't totally broken. It is a great example of what a stratagem should be!

I am not a GW fan boy by any means, I think the current state of 8th is really bad thanks to marines. But People cry when GW releases OP stuff and then they also cry when GW releases normal power level stuff. I guess we all wish GW could just be more consistent.

Hi FBNS,

This is a really interesting viewpoint. But can I ask how much impact you expect to get out of this? From my experience, neophytes damage comes not from the autoguns but the special weapons. Getting more autogun shots for 1 CP just seems a waste of CP.

The most you can get out of this is 20 additional S3 AP0 shots. Basic mathhammer:

20 shots, 10 hits.
Against GEQ that is 5 wounds and around 3 dead GEQs.
Against MEQs that is 3.33 wounds and only 1.11 dead MEQ (or a half dead primaris).
Yes you could add in the Alphus but at that point you are not only investing CP but an HQ choice to get a bit more of a buff.

Yes it's flexible, but what will it actually achieve?

It will make you feel bad about spending CP on a slightly modified (more mobility, but fewer shots) First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire, which is built into less expensive guard units.

"_hey what about a stratagem that gives +6" range on neophyt's weapons the turn they are set up using cult ambush?
_are they marines or what?
_no...
_ just give their pea-shooters assault 2.
_ but, no one will ever use this!
_ yes but it fills the page
_ but...
_ have you not stratagems and relics to write? money won't earn itself!"