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Something I think it's worth applauding GW for is the ease in which you can start playing. With just the free rules and a box of minis you can play a game. It's not a deep game, but it is a way to get a new play up and going pretty easilly. If they have a little extra dosh they can grab a start collecting box and have a Patrol Detachment when they move into playing narrative or matched play.

Sure, the game is more complete with more books, but I'd argue that open play method of using the datasheet(s) in the box works great to help teach someone how to play.

There are a lot of things we can complain about, but I feel the way they lowered the bar to entry to be a great improvement.

Never, now. Given that they were able to prove all they need to do is put out pretty figures and continue to make a terrible game and what double their profits? the rabid GW fan base is so large and so die hard that I don't think anything will ever sink them again. it would take something catastrophic like during the Kirby era in order to even remotely get to that point again and all they would have to do is put on a show and fix it.Every single release they have proves this more because he won't get tons of people gushing over how the figure looks with little or no concern as to what it actually does or its price.

We the community missed our chance to push for actual improvements and light a fire under gw's ass by rewarding their smoke and mirrors and repeated terrible behavior with record-breaking profit and by giving them underserved credit for doing common Sense things that businesses have been doing for the past 15 years as though it was something revolutionary because GW was doing it

happy_inquisitor wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


We've seen an uptake in youth leagues in my area. A lot of this has come from local stores pushing Warcry, KT, and the idea that 40K can be played at lower points levels below 1500 points.

So I'm not so sure that the cost is going to cause any collapse anytime soon.

I'm not on the Schools League mailing list any more but for the years that I was they ran the gamut of ~500 to ~700 points until they switched entirely to Kill Team. It was always achievable money for kids from middle income families, still is.

That is where I got most of my impressions of how kids really get into the hobby rather than how someone on Dakka imagines they do. Nice to see a bit of reality creeping into this discussion at last.

Our Local FLGS offers a KT "Package" to members of the school league. Rule Book + 1 Troop Kit + 6 Paint Pots (choice of colors) for 80$. Includes a free standard Paint Brush and a Free Wash Brush.

The school also bought about 500$ worth of terrain and models that students could use for the club!

 Togusa wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


We've seen an uptake in youth leagues in my area. A lot of this has come from local stores pushing Warcry, KT, and the idea that 40K can be played at lower points levels below 1500 points.

So I'm not so sure that the cost is going to cause any collapse anytime soon.

I'm not on the Schools League mailing list any more but for the years that I was they ran the gamut of ~500 to ~700 points until they switched entirely to Kill Team. It was always achievable money for kids from middle income families, still is.

That is where I got most of my impressions of how kids really get into the hobby rather than how someone on Dakka imagines they do. Nice to see a bit of reality creeping into this discussion at last.

Our Local FLGS offers a KT "Package" to members of the school league. Rule Book + 1 Troop Kit + 6 Paint Pots (choice of colors) for 80$. Includes a free standard Paint Brush and a Free Wash Brush.

The school also bought about 500$ worth of terrain and models that students could use for the club!

Now that's a good way to grow your community!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


We've seen an uptake in youth leagues in my area. A lot of this has come from local stores pushing Warcry, KT, and the idea that 40K can be played at lower points levels below 1500 points.

So I'm not so sure that the cost is going to cause any collapse anytime soon.

I'm not on the Schools League mailing list any more but for the years that I was they ran the gamut of ~500 to ~700 points until they switched entirely to Kill Team. It was always achievable money for kids from middle income families, still is.

That is where I got most of my impressions of how kids really get into the hobby rather than how someone on Dakka imagines they do. Nice to see a bit of reality creeping into this discussion at last.

Our Local FLGS offers a KT "Package" to members of the school league. Rule Book + 1 Troop Kit + 6 Paint Pots (choice of colors) for 80$. Includes a free standard Paint Brush and a Free Wash Brush.

The school also bought about 500$ worth of terrain and models that students could use for the club!

Now that's a good way to grow your community!

Yeah! I think that if GW were truly smart, they would come up with some sort of cheap terrain kit + some models to send out to school clubs to jumpstart the hobby.

 Togusa wrote:
[Yeah! I think that if GW were truly smart, they would come up with some sort of cheap terrain kit + some models to send out to school clubs to jumpstart the hobby.

You mean other than the Kill Team boxes?

Wayniac wrote:
Never, now. Given that they were able to prove all they need to do is put out pretty figures and continue to make a terrible game and what double their profits? the rabid GW fan base is so large and so die hard that I don't think anything will ever sink them again. it would take something catastrophic like during the Kirby era in order to even remotely get to that point again and all they would have to do is put on a show and fix it.Every single release they have proves this more because he won't get tons of people gushing over how the figure looks with little or no concern as to what it actually does or its price.

We the community missed our chance to push for actual improvements and light a fire under gw's ass by rewarding their smoke and mirrors and repeated terrible behavior with record-breaking profit and by giving them underserved credit for doing common Sense things that businesses have been doing for the past 15 years as though it was something revolutionary because GW was doing it

so stop playing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
[Yeah! I think that if GW were truly smart, they would come up with some sort of cheap terrain kit + some models to send out to school clubs to jumpstart the hobby.

You mean other than the Kill Team boxes?

I think he's thinking something a little larger and more specialist. basicly a box that gives 2 complete 1000 point armies and the terrain nesscary to play, make it a decent cost and something specialsit only avaliable to a registered school gaming club.

Karol wrote:

Why would the regulars want a kid to start the game in a different way, then they did.

Because not doing so is terribly short sighted on our part. It's detrimental to the miniature gaming hobby as a whole and to the local shop in particular.

The hobby always needs new blood. Without it. :(
The local hobby/game shop? You show me the independent shop that doesn't need more sales. Go on, I'll wait.
And if my local shop goes away? :( :( :(

So it's in my own best interest to accommodate new players, however they're starting.
Maybe that means playing smaller scale games. Ok. I'm a gamer. And maybe if we're playing small games we can fit several into the allotted time.
Maybe that means being attacked repeatedly by the grey tide. Hopefully that turns into the WIP tide....
Maybe we run team games of several people/side each with only x pts.
Maybe a combo of these.
It definitely means not crushing them into paste right from the start. Breaking the players will to play absolutely harms sales.

My only absolute demand is that all of your squads be clearly identifiable. As in Red Squad, Blue Squad, etc so we know what's what as things get moved about.

Karol wrote:

We had an ex pat guy from UK who tried to play with his FW army, and the store has a no FW rule. Came like 5 times, never got a game, never came back. Same would be true for a reverse situation, if someone in a FW place, would say they don't want to play vs FW stuff, they wouldn't be getting any rules real fast.

In the Ex Pats case? You know that saying about "When in Rome..."?
1st visit: "Oh pooh :( They have some crappy house rule in place." But coming back 4 more times hoping it'll be different? "Eh, sorry dude."
As a player it IS on you to adapt to where you want to be playing. After you become a known regular then maybe you can work on shifting the existing house rules. Might help if you also spend a lot of $ through the shop while doing that.

The second case? Maybe. Maybe not. Just because someone owns FW stuff doesn't mean it always has to be used. But this just comes down to being able to negotiate game details with your opponents.

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:

Why would the regulars want a kid to start the game in a different way, then they did.

Because not doing so is terribly short sighted on our part. It's detrimental to the miniature gaming hobby as a whole and to the local shop in particular.

The hobby always needs new blood. Without it. :(
The local hobby/game shop? You show me the independent shop that doesn't need more sales. Go on, I'll wait.
And if my local shop goes away? :( :( :(

So it's in my own best interest to accommodate new players, however they're starting.
Maybe that means playing smaller scale games. Ok. I'm a gamer. And maybe if we're playing small games we can fit several into the allotted time.
Maybe that means being attacked repeatedly by the grey tide. Hopefully that turns into the WIP tide....
Maybe we run team games of several people/side each with only x pts.
Maybe a combo of these.
It definitely means not crushing them into paste right from the start. Breajing the players will to play absolutely harms sales.

My only absolute demand is that all of your squads be clearly identifiable. As in Red Squad, Blue Squad, etc so we know what's what as things get moved about.


[ with your opponents.

besides playing the same game with the same lsit with the same points etc all the time is dull, sometimes a smaller game can be a fun thing

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
[Yeah! I think that if GW were truly smart, they would come up with some sort of cheap terrain kit + some models to send out to school clubs to jumpstart the hobby.

You mean other than the Kill Team boxes?

I think he's thinking something a little larger and more specialist. basicly a box that gives 2 complete 1000 point armies and the terrain nesscary to play, make it a decent cost and something specialsit only avaliable to a registered school gaming club.

You mean warcry?

The Ex-Pat might well have just been seeing how strong the "no FW" rule was, esp considering their whole army was FW so somewhat a special case. Many clubs have general rules like "no FW in pickup games" but that doesn't mean that you can never ever EVER take FW models to the club. Just that the club won't expect you to use them in a generic pickup game. Ergo its a case of "hey lets play oh can can I use my FW stuff in the game" before the match.

Quite common in most clubs and groups.

*I can't predict whether GW will crash, but I can tell you what would freeze my willingness to purchase new product:
A 9th edition that changes things so radically that it invalidates the current dexes until everything gets rewritten again. I think GW is smart enough to realize that for many of the new players, a reset button would be catastrophic.

I've played since Rogue Trader; I played 2nd like a mad man, and continued to play fairly hard for 3rd. I had a second heyday- not sure if it was 4th or 5th (2007-2009). Then I stopped because Sisters were in bad shape and fading fast.

I returned to the game with the release of the 7th ed Genestealer Cult Codex, and it pulled me back. Sisters were my primary, but the GSC had been my first love, and I still had vintage versions of the Patriarch, magi and hybrids. Then they rereleased Celestine with these amazing Geminae body guards! And it was part of the transition to an 8th which would see an entire Sisters release; I was lcky, because while I did buy the 7th ed GSC dex, I didn't have time to buy it before 8th was announced. The final coup de gras? The indexes which allowed me to transition seamlessly into 8th and start playing with two armies that I loved, both of which had been written off for dead for ages, and both of which were promised a renaissance in 8th.

So forgive me if I'm a fanboy, but there's a method to my madness. I've decided that 8th is the proverbial hill I'm gonna die on, so I'm all in.

I have every Kill Team Rule book except Arena, because competitive just doesn't fit my playstyle. I archive all the downloads, and I've invested in more codexes than ever in any previous edition. I've got: GSC, Tyranids, Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicus, Chaos Space Marines 2.0, Chaos Daemons, and Drukari. It goes without saying I want the Sisters when it drops. But I also want Deathwatch. If they do something to help Grey Knights (and I think Psychic awakening will be that thing), I'll buy their dex too. If they release Inquisition or Agents of the Imperium, I'm all in. If they do something for Kroot, I will dig into that and Tau to go with it. Banshees tempt me to Eldar, and if I bite, I'll need the Triumvirate and a small detachment of Harlequins.

Because Kill Team Rogue Trader and Blackstone Fortress cater to Blanchitsu style warband gaming and include models and 40k rules for characters associated with the Eclessiarchy and the Inquisition, I bought into those pretty hard too. If any expansion includes 40k rules for any of the armies listed above, I'll continue to buy those too.

I will Apocalypse, but only once my campaign reaches that scale, which could take a year or so.

Necromunda might be on my horizon, but I'm investing in so much else, I had to draw a line for now. Greater cross compatibility with 40k would go a long way to winning me over.

Sorry for the long and winding ramble through my collection, but the point is that I'm buying this much because if they do hit the reset button I'm out, and I will own enough product that my friends and I can keep playing 8th until we kick the bucket.

If, on the other hand, they continue to evolve the Universe slowly using amazing tools like world wide interactive campaigns with new rules and model support; if they continue to use White Dwarf to give us serviceable rules content for niche gamers like me; if they eventually give the Drukari and the Grey Knights the same kind of love that more recent codexes have had...

Well then they've got a pretty dedicated customer for as long as they keep going the way they are going. Again sorry for the length of this post, but I wanted to explain why I sometimes over react when I see naysaying Dakkanauts ranting for 9th because they want to win more tournaments. I understand their perspective, and respect their opinions and realize that they too are vital to the long term survivability of the hobby.

But they still make may sad.

*I can't predict whether GW will crash, but I can tell you what would freeze my willingness to purchase new product:
A 9th edition that changes things so radically that it invalidates the current dexes until everything gets rewritten again. I think GW is smart enough to realize that for many of the new players, a reset button would be catastrophic.

New players of what kind? Those who have half an army and one codex? Certainly not.

 wuestenfux wrote:

*I can't predict whether GW will crash, but I can tell you what would freeze my willingness to purchase new product:
A 9th edition that changes things so radically that it invalidates the current dexes until everything gets rewritten again. I think GW is smart enough to realize that for many of the new players, a reset button would be catastrophic.

New players of what kind? Those who have half an army and one codex? Certainly not.

8th was the same?!?

And the hackjob of pitifull quality that came for fw armies might aswell would've remained illegal?!?

Honestly I think that GW has learned the lesson that supporting all armies with current edition rules helps improve sales - quite significantly. It also makes far more sense from a business investment perspective to not have to do rescue releases all the time like Sister of Battle or most of AoS. Why burn and run a risk on huge one time investments that have to rekindle life into a range when you can drip-feed updates and keep them current and maintain a healthy long term lifespan anda more active and engaged fanbase.

Because there's always the risk that everyone asks for Sisters, but when push comes to shove everyone is buying other things and not enough buy into them. It's always there as a dark scary risk. But if Sisters are kept up to date and kept popular then you've got a bigger and growing loyal fanbase of customers that will really help ensure a big sales boost whenever something is released.

Not that I think Sisters will fail, not in the least, but its a concern for GW I'm sure that they can't avoid considering.


Right now I think new editions will be more akin to clean ups. GW will change mechanics and adjust things mostly through the annual updates and campaign expansions (like what we are getting now) and then will release a new rules edition which refines a few things and mostly cleans up the collection of myriad rules and FAQ and such.

Codex will likely turn out the same with some being a pure clean up; others will be paired with big releases.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I think that GW has learned the lesson that supporting all armies with current edition rules helps improve sales - quite significantly. It also makes far more sense from a business investment perspective to not have to do rescue releases all the time like Sister of Battle or most of AoS. Why burn and run a risk on huge one time investments that have to rekindle life into a range when you can drip-feed updates and keep them current and maintain a healthy long term lifespan anda more active and engaged fanbase.

Because there's always the risk that everyone asks for Sisters, but when push comes to shove everyone is buying other things and not enough buy into them. It's always there as a dark scary risk. But if Sisters are kept up to date and kept popular then you've got a bigger and growing loyal fanbase of customers that will really help ensure a big sales boost whenever something is released.

Not that I think Sisters will fail, not in the least, but its a concern for GW I'm sure that they can't avoid considering.


Right now I think new editions will be more akin to clean ups. GW will change mechanics and adjust things mostly through the annual updates and campaign expansions (like what we are getting now) and then will release a new rules edition which refines a few things and mostly cleans up the collection of myriad rules and FAQ and such.

Codex will likely turn out the same with some being a pure clean up; others will be paired with big releases.

Bs, GW hasn't learnt that lession, especially in the face of csm 2.0 and all fw index armies.

How so? The Chaos 2.0 is an updated Codex, exactly like I outlined. A new wave of models which was then bolstered with an updated codex release. It's just a big burst instead of smaller ones; the difference being that prior to that chaos was supported so there's ample room for big bursts to work still; just that GW is also now far more open to drip feeding as well.


As for FW, FW is in a really odd place at present. I don't think even GW knows what to do with it and I think its clear that there's some internal politics going on as well as restructuring. I think that the plan for FW has also changed several times quite quickly; you can see that in how the AoS team was disbanded even though all they'd produced were a handful of alternate heads for Stormcast. Meanwhile the AoS side, even though the rules are now set by the internal GW team, still has odd divisions of models such as the myrewurm not being in Idoneth - the army that is perfectly themed and designed to field an underwater beast.

 Overread wrote:
How so? The Chaos 2.0 is an updated Codex, exactly like I outlined. A new wave of models which was then bolstered with an updated codex release. It's just a big burst instead of smaller ones; the difference being that prior to that chaos was supported so there's ample room for big bursts to work still; just that GW is also now far more open to drip feeding as well.


As for FW, FW is in a really odd place at present. I don't think even GW knows what to do with it and I think its clear that there's some internal politics going on as well as restructuring. I think that the plan for FW has also changed several times quite quickly; you can see that in how the AoS team was disbanded even though all they'd produced were a handful of alternate heads for Stormcast. Meanwhile the AoS side, even though the rules are now set by the internal GW team, still has odd divisions of models such as the myrewurm not being in Idoneth - the army that is perfectly themed and designed to field an underwater beast.

No, the dex 2.0 is no Update worth of that description. Especially rulewise. Which is also part of the support an army needs.


FW is irelevant, since the GW rules team took over.

So no GW has NOT learnt that propper updates are required FOR ALL armies, for them to generate returning revenue, especially in the realm of their rules team. Which still throws out more hackjobs.

But we get marines in all colours of rainbows.

The 2.0 codex updates the 1.0 in terms of adding the newly released models into the range into a single book instead of requiring players to own and use multiple books. It's exactly an updated codex.

Now we can debate about the quality of the rules and the technical aspects, but that's a slightly separate discussion and avenue which can get a bit fought with opinion over fact. I will also agree that the rules team still has the same core issue in that they are essentially very casual players writing the rules which results in some elements that appear quite under developed for a company of GW's maturity. I figure this is something we will continue to live with until such time as GW makes an employment change or three in their rules department.

It's not that they don't have an eye to fun, but rather that they clearly have some gaps in how they write things and that sometimes technical aspects are overlooked because the yare so used to playing each other they don't think to include or clarify them.

It's not that they don't have an eye to fun, but rather that they clearly have some gaps in how they write things and that sometimes technical aspects are overlooked because the yare so used to playing each other they don't think to include or clarify them.

What you meant to say that the dude writing the dex didn't get recently rolled over by a player with said faction. Or better is an IoM marine faction.

how long did it take them to update Eldar and CSM sprues?
How many DE HQ options got curbed?

The miniatures are probably the best in the industry.
THeir clear playing of favourites however hinders them, constantly.


But alas, they have driven me allready more or less out of 40k and into killteam and other systems, excactly because of this.
And i rekon i am not the only one.

Well, I don't think that GW will crash now and the next years.
The more interesting question at the moment is whether GW will suffer from a hard brexit without a deal.
The ''yellowhammer'' document describes some scenarios which are not good for UK based companies at short sight.

 Togusa wrote:


Yeah! I think that if GW were truly smart, they would come up with some sort of cheap terrain kit + some models to send out to school clubs to jumpstart the hobby.

They definitely used to. When I registered my local group for schools league they were sent a big box with a load of terrain in it and about a dozen paints and some brushes.

So GW definitely do this stuff, or at least they do in the UK. Obviously I can't comment on other countries where the school support has not been going on for so long and where they might not have a full-on annual national set of tournaments.

It might also be that GW is wanting a tighter handle on the schools interaction so that it doesn't turn into teachers just trying to get free stuff for their hobby. Programs like that need careful management in order to ensure that they are having the desired effect and they need feedback so that GW can monitor if its actually working or not.

Of course GW will be happy for people playing,but the core idea is that the school freebies kickstart the interest in the game locally and encourage local sales.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I don't think that GW will crash now and the next years.
The more interesting question at the moment is whether GW will suffer from a hard brexit without a deal.
The ''yellowhammer'' document describes some scenarios which are not good for UK based companies at short sight.

Well yeah, it lists possible worst case scenarios. If those scenarios were good then it didn't do its job.
For me, the worst case scenario is that Brexit disrupts sales in France. Which is bad for us, but manageable for GW as they just have to focus more on the US and Japan then.
That probably won't happen though, unless Macron is a petty git.

Honestly GW's domestic sales in the UK are healthy enough on their own. I figure the main issue would be that GW would start running out of steam after a year or two if they saw one territory take a dramatic sales hit. So we'd likely see the pace of releases slow down and perhaps some of the marketing ease off a bit - remembering that the weekly releases and daily marketing is all very new.

They might run out of steam without taking any hits too. They are bound to run out of ideas at some point. They can't possibly make marine variants forever. Profitable ones, at least.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
They might run out of steam without taking any hits too. They are bound to run out of ideas at some point. They can't possibly make marine variants forever. Profitable ones, at least.

They are unlikely to run out of ideas; but GW has in their annual reports said that at some point they expect to ease off the release pressure and scale back a bit. At what point that happens and to what degree I think they've left open to variation based on investment. Part of it I think is also tied to them saying that their share value will reduce as well - basically generic points of fact that will happen without sticking it to a formal timeframe. Thus preparing investors for changes, but at the same time being flexible to see how the market actually reacts.

Which is very sensible, they know that they cannot maintain a breakneck speed and production rate and that the market might well reach a saturation point and need a cooling off period when sales dwindle somewhat.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


Yeah! I think that if GW were truly smart, they would come up with some sort of cheap terrain kit + some models to send out to school clubs to jumpstart the hobby.

They definitely used to. When I registered my local group for schools league they were sent a big box with a load of terrain in it and about a dozen paints and some brushes.

So GW definitely do this stuff, or at least they do in the UK. Obviously I can't comment on other countries where the school support has not been going on for so long and where they might not have a full-on annual national set of tournaments.

Here in Germany GW is largely unknown at least when it comes to schools.
GW has established shops in each larger city but not always at high-street.
Most of them are more basement shops such as Hamburg I, let alone Hamburg II.
Moreover, GW doesn't advertise at all. Its just mouth-to-mouth propaganda or you find a store here or there.

In the UK its much the same - advertising and prime highstreet locations are super expensive now. I think it's why GW has been doing so much licence outreach into other markets. They basically can't afford global or even national TV spots and buss sides and prime highstreet shops any more. It's all too expensive and bloated by much more powerful markets or the highstreets are typically being tax/rent/lack of footfalled out of functionality.


So massive internet campaign and massive outreach programs into other markets in the hope of attracting more customers.

I'm sure GW would love to do a big advertising campaign, but I suspect the costs are just way too great. Plus I think the big risk for them is such a campaign might be like the Lord of the Rings films in that whilst the campaign was going it would spike sales up, but once the campaign died down the number of retained customers would be far smaller and the spike would suddenly vanish. Ergo its the kind of thing that once you start you have to keep going to maintain. Profitable if you can spike way above the costs, but also a risky situation where a few rising costs or a lowering in sales could untip the balance.

I've often said that the absolute BEST advertisement a table top game can get is to lisence their IP and name to a hit video game. Baulder's Gate got me playing D&D. the mechwarrior game series is a MAJOR recruitment material for battletech, to the point where you can easily identify "generations" among the fans based on what game got them into the game. Cyberpunk has gone from a game that was almost forgotten about to a game on everyone's radar thanks to the upcomiong CDPR game etc.

thing is video games have such a larger player base then most table top games, even if only 10% of the fans of the games end up getting into your table top, thats a pretty healthy influx of people.