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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I hope we hear more creaking wheels from the weight of more bandwagon jumping. Gotta be the best marines in town, which color will it be ?..All the colors of the rainbow united under the most recent codex release.

Can't wait for the new Deathwatch to roll out and then this will all fall to the way side as we'll hear once more. " Unless you're a Deathwatch don't even bother playing marines. " I'm calling it now.

I find it humorous.
Also lucky are those that didn't get a recent dex release.
Or upgrade.

Because for them this is a Hollow situation.

 Jidmah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Karol wrote:
yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.

I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.

Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.

it's an aura ability. covers units out to 9 inches. which is decent and very useful but hardly game breaking.

I agree, and never claimed the opposite. It's well worth it's points, but not carrying orks to tournament wins like Xenomancer is claiming.

Putting words in my mouth. I said the KFF is OP. I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Karol wrote:
yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.

I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.

Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.

it's an aura ability. covers units out to 9 inches. which is decent and very useful but hardly game breaking.

I agree, and never claimed the opposite. It's well worth it's points, but not carrying orks to tournament wins like Xenomancer is claiming.

Putting words in my mouth. I said the KFF is OP. I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.

No you wouldn't because that cp is spent on other, more important stuff.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah and the new Techmarine guy is also not able to provide a 5++ to everyone, is not free, and dies pretty easily too.

Main difference is that a 5++ goes a longer way to making Ork models better as they already have naturally lower saves.

And DA could have a 4++ save for all of the edition. No one cares.

The original argument was that orks win tournaments because, according to Xenomancer, they have a crazy good defensive buff.

Do you agree or disagree that gretchin/boyz with a KFF are a "crazy good defensive option" powerful enough to compare with 3++ castellans, fully buffed shining spears or plague bearers?

Because that's what this argument is all about.

Pray tell, how many of that 4++ and 5++ can Marines buy?

Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah and the new Techmarine guy is also not able to provide a 5++ to everyone, is not free, and dies pretty easily too.

Main difference is that a 5++ goes a longer way to making Ork models better as they already have naturally lower saves.

And DA could have a 4++ save for all of the edition. No one cares.

The original argument was that orks win tournaments because, according to Xenomancer, they have a crazy good defensive buff.

Do you agree or disagree that gretchin/boyz with a KFF are a "crazy good defensive option" powerful enough to compare with 3++ castellans, fully buffed shining spears or plague bearers?

Because that's what this argument is all about.

Pray tell, how many of that 4++ and 5++ can Marines buy?

Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.

Chaos marines get easy access to a 5++ from the noctolith crown, you see those in every list.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Putting words in my mouth. I said the KFF is OP. I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.

Lol and you are wrong. So, so wrong. On so many different levels too.

I thought you played 40k competitively? You must have faced Ork opponents. Did they fit their entire, 200+ model army under a single KFF?

Did they even bring one at all? The strongest defence us Orks have to show our durability is simply weight of numbers. The KFF actually makes most builds less durable (but it can be used to protect key units like Mek guns and the Mek that holds it can also repair).

You won't see the KFF now that index Big Meks are banned from tournaments. The MA Big Mek is not worth it.

index big meks aren't banned. not yet.

Well they technically won't be banned, just not recommended for tournament play. Which is close to the same but without just speaking frankly. At least as far as most players are concerned, not me but most.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Putting words in my mouth. I said the KFF is OP.

"I didn't say that!" *says it again*-

I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.

That's because you have no clue what you are talking about. That stratagem is absolutely terrible has not been used even once by anyone placing top 4 with orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pray tell, how many of that 4++ and 5++ can Marines buy?

Most top lists are running 0-1 KFF meks, and you occasionally see a wazbom.

Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.

How about you answer the question instead of dodging. Xenomancer claims that the KFF is equally OP as a 3++ castallan. Do you agree or not?

its interesting how certain people apply one form of logic to their own army, but have a different set of arithmetic for evaluating everyone elses.

 Xenomancers wrote:
3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.

And any opponent you play against will send you candy and flowers for blowing that many CP on something entirely pointless as they snipe out your mek.

I wish I could use the IH rules as I like the idea of a mechanized SM army or an all dread army and IH really encourages that more than any other. Problem is my space marines are painted as DA successors so I don't want to be called out on it.

MistaGav wrote:
I wish I could use the IH rules as I like the idea of a mechanized SM army or an all dread army and IH really encourages that more than any other. Problem is my space marines are painted as DA successors so I don't want to be called out on it.

Is a successor, is fine to use the rules.
Ofcourse if you use obvious heraldry then some people get annoyed but frankly most won't care.

Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?

Karol wrote:
Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?

There are no rules for non-codex successors.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Putting words in my mouth. I said the KFF is OP.

"I didn't say that!" *says it again*-

I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.

That's because you have no clue what you are talking about. That stratagem is absolutely terrible has not been used even once by anyone placing top 4 with orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pray tell, how many of that 4++ and 5++ can Marines buy?

Most top lists are running 0-1 KFF meks, and you occasionally see a wazbom.

Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.

How about you answer the question instead of dodging. Xenomancer claims that the KFF is equally OP as a 3++ castallan. Do you agree or not?

I do agree, yes. Just because a unit isn't broken doesn't mean a particular buffing mechanic isn't. If Orks were suddenly Infantry prices for example it would be absurd to give that many models that much a better save.

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?

There are no rules for non-codex successors.

In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I do agree, yes. Just because a unit isn't broken doesn't mean a particular buffing mechanic isn't. If Orks were suddenly Infantry prices for example it would be absurd to give that many models that much a better save.

How does "broken as a castellan" match with other codex having that exact same save on cheaper units(which see no play) and the vast majority of ork boyz in competitive armies never benefiting from a KFF?

Dudeface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah and the new Techmarine guy is also not able to provide a 5++ to everyone, is not free, and dies pretty easily too.

Main difference is that a 5++ goes a longer way to making Ork models better as they already have naturally lower saves.

And DA could have a 4++ save for all of the edition. No one cares.

The original argument was that orks win tournaments because, according to Xenomancer, they have a crazy good defensive buff.

Do you agree or disagree that gretchin/boyz with a KFF are a "crazy good defensive option" powerful enough to compare with 3++ castellans, fully buffed shining spears or plague bearers?

Because that's what this argument is all about.

Pray tell, how many of that 4++ and 5++ can Marines buy?

Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.

Chaos marines get easy access to a 5++ from the noctolith crown, you see those in every list.

That unit doesn't move and it costs 100 something points. It's not terrible but practically every chaos psychic unit has a 5++ save already. So really it's just the reroll that it provides (which also isn't bad) The units it helps most though (TS/daemons) already have invune save.

I've used it effectively to protect vindicators for the stratagem for 3d3 mortal wounds - it actually worked quite well the few times I did it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.

And any opponent you play against will send you candy and flowers for blowing that many CP on something entirely pointless as they snipe out your mek.

Right...Just like everyone spending 2 CP to give their whole army cover...an absolute waste of CP man.

This is how I know you don't actually play that game. Snipe your Mek? Literally on a few armies can do that effectively and they can't snipe a meq they can't see in most cases. If they can snipe your mek OLOS than I guess you just don't spend 3 CP and huddle around. This is not rocket science. Except for marines snipers really aren't that good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Putting words in my mouth. I said the KFF is OP.

"I didn't say that!" *says it again*-

I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.

That's because you have no clue what you are talking about. That stratagem is absolutely terrible has not been used even once by anyone placing top 4 with orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pray tell, how many of that 4++ and 5++ can Marines buy?

Most top lists are running 0-1 KFF meks, and you occasionally see a wazbom.

Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.

How about you answer the question instead of dodging. Xenomancer claims that the KFF is equally OP as a 3++ castallan. Do you agree or not?

You are just making stuff up now - Where did I say that KFF is as OP as 3++ Castellans? Plus - if you look through my history on Castellans you'd easily find that I was a huge supporter of a Castellan nerf. I was even supportive of a Gman nerf. To bring all marine armies in line with each other with better internal balance. It's pretty clear now though that internal balance was not the goal of these supplements.

Also - if you aren't using a KFF - you are actively gimping yourself. I am sure of it. KFF is basically mandatory as orks.

 captain collius wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?

There are no rules for non-codex successors.

In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today

yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..

BrianDavion wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?

There are no rules for non-codex successors.

In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today

yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..

True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing

 captain collius wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?

There are no rules for non-codex successors.

In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today

yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..

True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing

Actually, no Successors exist and only Azrael can ever be their Chapter Master based on the army list.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?

There are no rules for non-codex successors.

In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today

yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..

True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing

Actually, no Successors exist and only Azrael can ever be their Chapter Master based on the army list.

just because rules for a chapter master don't exist doesn't mean anything. I'm hoping if BAs and DAs get a 8.5 codex GW'll make it easier to run sucessor chapters.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Right...Just like everyone spending 2 CP to give their whole army cover...an absolute waste of CP man.

Putting a 2+ or 1+ save across an army is bloody fantastic. Putting a 5++ aint even in the same galaxy.

 Xenomancers wrote:

This is how I know you don't actually play that game. Snipe your Mek? Literally on a few armies can do that effectively and they can't snipe a meq they can't see in most cases. If they can snipe your mek OLOS than I guess you just don't spend 3 CP and huddle around. This is not rocket science. Except for marines snipers really aren't that good.

Youve literally never played against Eliminators have you.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?

There are no rules for non-codex successors.

In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today

yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..

True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing

Actually, no Successors exist and only Azrael can ever be their Chapter Master based on the army list.

just because rules for a chapter master don't exist doesn't mean anything. I'm hoping if BAs and DAs get a 8.5 codex GW'll make it easier to run sucessor chapters.

I was making a joke. However I'm basically right for all intents and purposes game-wise. There aren't rules for creating Chapter Masters and their successors are told "feth you" when it comes to Relics.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?

There are no rules for non-codex successors.

In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today

yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..

True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing

Actually, no Successors exist and only Azrael can ever be their Chapter Master based on the army list.

just because rules for a chapter master don't exist doesn't mean anything. I'm hoping if BAs and DAs get a 8.5 codex GW'll make it easier to run sucessor chapters.

I was making a joke. However I'm basically right for all intents and purposes game-wise. There aren't rules for creating Chapter Masters and their successors are told "feth you" when it comes to Relics.

yeah but GW's not been very supportive of sucessor chapters for a long time, I'm really hoping that the sucess of the 8.5 edition marine dex gives GW the impression people want this. I'm not even saying that BA and DA codices should have the ability to customize their own CTs (if your chapter tactics are differant you've proably diverged eneugh not to be using the special stuff the 1st founding one uses) but giving a chapter master strat would be nice.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are just making stuff up now - Where did I say that KFF is as OP as 3++ Castellans?

I suggest reading your own posts. Preferably before you hit "submit".

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is how the game works man. If you can see a unit. You can kill it. This is why defensive armies do the best.
Ynnari made a unit of shinning spears indestructable and destroyed your whole army with it.
Castellan knight goes 3++ and destroys your whole army
Deathgaurd army everything has 5++ and 5+++ and sits on objectives with PB
TS army buffs tzangors to be indestructble and fight twice with them destroying your army.

Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?

Orks.

KFF is an insane defensive buff.

Also - if you aren't using a KFF - you are actively gimping yourself. I am sure of it. KFF is basically mandatory as orks.

I suggest you watch an actual game played by a good ork player before we continue this discussion - there are plenty of streams available. I have no interest in discussing a meta and tactics that only exist in your head. I just wish you would stop spreading misinformation.

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?

There are no rules for non-codex successors.

Page 158, Dark Angels Successor Chapters.

Blah Blah Blah, replace Dark Angels with Successor Chapter i.e. Angels of Absolution blah blah blah.

Note however, you can't do this with named characters. for example Blah blah you can't change Azrael's Dark Angel keyword with Angels of Absolution


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 captain collius wrote:


True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing

In 5th/6th you were told to do that. I feel pretty sorry for people who made successor chapter Dark Angels, they're just getting bent over by GW now. Can't take Sammael, can't (easily) make their own bike captain...

Breton wrote:

In 5th/6th you were told to do that. I feel pretty sorry for people who made successor chapter Dark Angels, they're just getting bent over by GW now. Can't take Sammael, can't (easily) make their own bike captain...

They can just use the DARK ANGELS keyword. Paint doesn't affect rules.

I paint my brother's Dark Angels with a theme which is similar but not identical to the canonic one, except for the deathwing which is completely different.

He never had any problems fielding Azrael for this.