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I know the Iron Hands are the new hotness, but I am finding Ravenguard far more interesting and tempting. What are your thoughts on their abilities?

Surgical Strikes could give surprising Knight-bullying abilities.

Eh. It's more space marines getting new stuff for some reason with models I don't like. I don't massively hate it or anything, I'm just bored of Marines. That's how I feel about it.

No comment on abilities, but Primaris beakies look great

I have played RG a lot in 8th and I am very excited for the new supplement. The warlord traits and Strats look very good. The new Shrike is a steal at 130pts.

The new RG look very fun to play which is what matters most to me.

The IH supplement looks very limited. It has a lot of accuracy fixers (mainly for heavy weapons) and ways to make models (mainly characters and vehicles) more durable. That's it mostly. Also they can't fall back and shoot unless I missed something. Which is very big deal if you have a ranged focused list.

Sigh, yet another utterly unpleasant army to face with the current state of Nids.

>10w synapse creatures? Army wide bonuses to hit and to wound.

<10w synapse creatures? An extensive toolset for character sniping and armywide bonuses to hit and to wound.

As a Chaos Space Marines player, I envy the dead.

 Blood Hawk wrote:
I have played RG a lot in 8th and I am very excited for the new supplement. The warlord traits and Strats look very good. The new Shrike is a steal at 130pts.

The new RG look very fun to play which is what matters most to me.

The IH supplement looks very limited. It has a lot of accuracy fixers (mainly for heavy weapons) and ways to make models (mainly characters and vehicles) more durable. That's it mostly. Also they can't fall back and shoot unless I missed something. Which is very big deal if you have a ranged focused list.

That's what your screen is for - and Infiltrators are a VERY good screen, even if a bit pricey.
I wonder how a list of ranged Character Dreadnoughts (the ones with <10 wounds, obviously) would fare.

Kitane wrote:
Sigh, yet another utterly unpleasant army to face with the current state of Nids.

>10w synapse creatures? Army wide bonuses to hit and to wound.

<10w synapse creatures? An extensive toolset for character sniping and armywide bonuses to hit and to wound.

This is a pretty big issue for me (even though I've more or less stopped playing...this isn't encouraging me to start again). We've officially gotten to the point where GW fails to come up with new ideas so they start down the "invalidate massive game rules" path. Character rules were written to help protect characters - units which have become increasingly important/vital to an army even functioning on the table top. Most armies are exceptionally reliant on auras, buffs, and spells created by...characters.

Space Marines now have a unit dedicated to shooting characters without need for line-of-sight with weapons which recently received a bump in strength and an additional -1 save modifier if set in the correct doctrine. If that's not good enough you can make some Intercessors with strong, multi-damage rifles snipers with a stratagem. So you can have a 10 man unit dropping serious firepower on an exposed character, again benefiting from additional save modifiers. If none of that is getting it done for you, you can now use Raven Guard or the new Iron Hands fella to bump your to hit chances and to-wound chances.

If you're willing to sacrifice your additional AP from the doctrine you can also bring in proper Assassins and toss additional scouts into the mix. With all this, what's the point of running normal characters? As an Eldar player I have incredibly weak (yet expensive) characters with a supremely mediocre armour save. The entire core rule about allowing Characters to exist in a game without being shot off the table immediately is more or less removed from a Marine player's concerns.

I've often joked that GW's rules writers have two rules:

1) "Re-roll X"
2) "Ignore rule ______"

They are well and truly galloping full speed this direction again.

Transports and indirect fire are a thing.
Keep characters in WS turn 1, use night spinners to kill Eliminators (damage 2 is nice), then deploy characters using LOS blocking terrain to utilize buffs/spells.

Either way, your opponent has now completely distracted your entire plan - you've wasted all of your characters' abilities for a full turn and they're dedicating a heap of their army trying to kill 2+ armour marines sitting in cover (likely out of sight).

My point is simple; there's a strong potential anti-character meta evolving in the marine books. If it's causing you keep characters inside vehicles, they're doing their job just as well as killing them.

It's a gak direction to send rules when you start relying on breaking key rule concepts for your own game.

 bullyboy wrote:
Transports and indirect fire are a thing.
Keep characters in WS turn 1, use night spinners to kill Eliminators (damage 2 is nice), then deploy characters using LOS blocking terrain to utilize buffs/spells.

Transports, you mean the thing that for most armies is either overpriced or unavilable (Tyranids have non f.e.)
Or lack the assault rule of the new marine transport to make them usefull?

Also forcing charachters out of position is a surefire way to massively hinder these armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
I know the Iron Hands are the new hotness, but I am finding Ravenguard far more interesting and tempting. What are your thoughts on their abilities?

You meant the new AL.

nekooni wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
I have played RG a lot in 8th and I am very excited for the new supplement. The warlord traits and Strats look very good. The new Shrike is a steal at 130pts.

The new RG look very fun to play which is what matters most to me.

The IH supplement looks very limited. It has a lot of accuracy fixers (mainly for heavy weapons) and ways to make models (mainly characters and vehicles) more durable. That's it mostly. Also they can't fall back and shoot unless I missed something. Which is very big deal if you have a ranged focused list.

That's what your screen is for - and Infiltrators are a VERY good screen, even if a bit pricey.
I wonder how a list of ranged Character Dreadnoughts (the ones with <10 wounds, obviously) would fare.

Infiltrators are a very good screen against deep strikers. They are too expensive otherwise IMO. The ability to fall back and shoot is very good. I learned that playing my Tau. RG can fall back and shoot/charge with ravens flight. Personally I think that is one of the better strats they get.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Transports and indirect fire are a thing.
Keep characters in WS turn 1, use night spinners to kill Eliminators (damage 2 is nice), then deploy characters using LOS blocking terrain to utilize buffs/spells.

Transports, you mean the thing that for most armies is either overpriced or unavilable (Tyranids have non f.e.)
Or lack the assault rule of the new marine transport to make them usefull?

Also forcing charachters out of position is a surefire way to massively hinder these armies.

who's talking Tyranids? He was referring to Eldar, which has the best transport in the game. Keeping characters in a transport for one turn isn't terrible, you're only looking at stopping that Alpha Strike. You can easily exit the transport and perform your job before hitting the marines with indirect fire.

Ravenguard might have a few gimmicks, but this is of course taking away from spending points elsewhere in the list. At least they are different to the norm. I don't think anyone is going to be yelling OP! when it comes t RG say compared to IH. It's still early, haven't seen many games of new marines yet. I do know my Dark Angels have fallen even further behind, so I'm looking for a gap filler until they are better represented.

who's talking Tyranids? He was referring to Eldar, which has the best transport in the game. Keeping characters in a transport for one turn isn't terrible, you're only looking at stopping that Alpha Strike. You can easily exit the transport and perform your job before hitting the marines with indirect fire

It really is,
Not all armies have indirect fire.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ravenguard might have a few gimmicks, but this is of course taking away from spending points elsewhere in the list. At least they are different to the norm. I don't think anyone is going to be yelling OP! when it comes t RG say compared to IH. It's still early, haven't seen many games of new marines yet. I do know my Dark Angels have fallen even further behind, so I'm looking for a gap filler until they are better represented.

I think ih will be strong in a casual forgiving meta.

RG will just be highly annoying. And kick every non knight army that relies on charachters in the shin.

Also be happy that your dex 2.0 isnt out yet for DA.
Because the supplements and dex 2.0 for SM are once again just a pure show of favouritisms.

pm713 wrote:
Eh. It's more space marines getting new stuff for some reason with models I don't like. I don't massively hate it or anything, I'm just bored of Marines. That's how I feel about it.

most marine players would like to see this release have come and gone already too, GW's drawing it out is annoying

 bullyboy wrote:
Transports and indirect fire are a thing.
Keep characters in WS turn 1, use night spinners to kill Eliminators (damage 2 is nice), then deploy characters using LOS blocking terrain to utilize buffs/spells.

Don't eliminators have a thing where they cannot be targeted unless they are the closest unit?
Pretty sure I saw it in the shadowspear thing..

Anyway... all of my T3 characters are very thrilled... *sigh*

 Argive wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Transports and indirect fire are a thing.
Keep characters in WS turn 1, use night spinners to kill Eliminators (damage 2 is nice), then deploy characters using LOS blocking terrain to utilize buffs/spells.

Don't eliminators have a thing where they cannot be targeted unless they are the closest unit?
Pretty sure I saw it in the shadowspear thing..

Anyway... all of my T3 characters are very thrilled... *sigh*

nope they don't. they do however so if they're in cover they're going tobe pretty durable. luckly the small size of a squad is a problem for eliminators, they're decently killable.

 Argive wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Transports and indirect fire are a thing.
Keep characters in WS turn 1, use night spinners to kill Eliminators (damage 2 is nice), then deploy characters using LOS blocking terrain to utilize buffs/spells.

Don't eliminators have a thing where they cannot be targeted unless they are the closest unit?
Pretty sure I saw it in the shadowspear thing..

Anyway... all of my T3 characters are very thrilled... *sigh*

That's a librarian in Phobos armor psychic power that does that. Additionally, using Executioner rounds (the shoot through walls and character screens bolt) has a -2 penalty to the shot and is 1 damage. So even if I was a IG character I wouldn't be that concerned that that Eliminators are going to being rekt-ing my commanders every game. Eliminators are a 3 man squad looking for 5s to hit, 3s to wound and as long as you don't have a T-shirt save you have something to soak the 1 Damage hits. Doctrine, auras and other buffs a side, I wouldn't expect an Eliminator squad to completely shut down anything with devoting a lot of resources to make it happen. So as long as the opponent isn't sinking everything they have into a 3 wound, T3 Character, they'll probably be alright. And if they are sinking some much of their success into one person, well that is why armies deploy snipers and assassins and perhaps they should have a bit more redundancy.

It will probably be alright non-marine players. It is just a new challenge to adapt and overcome. Not even a particularly scary one if you ask me.

Executioners are +2 to hit, not -2...

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Transports and indirect fire are a thing.
Keep characters in WS turn 1, use night spinners to kill Eliminators (damage 2 is nice), then deploy characters using LOS blocking terrain to utilize buffs/spells.

Don't eliminators have a thing where they cannot be targeted unless they are the closest unit?
Pretty sure I saw it in the shadowspear thing..

Anyway... all of my T3 characters are very thrilled... *sigh*

That's a librarian in Phobos armor psychic power that does that. Additionally, using Executioner rounds (the shoot through walls and character screens bolt) has a -2 penalty to the shot and is 1 damage. So even if I was a IG character I wouldn't be that concerned that that Eliminators are going to being rekt-ing my commanders every game. Eliminators are a 3 man squad looking for 5s to hit, 3s to wound and as long as you don't have a T-shirt save you have something to soak the 1 Damage hits. Doctrine, auras and other buffs a side, I wouldn't expect an Eliminator squad to completely shut down anything with devoting a lot of resources to make it happen. So as long as the opponent isn't sinking everything they have into a 3 wound, T3 Character, they'll probably be alright. And if they are sinking some much of their success into one person, well that is why armies deploy snipers and assassins and perhaps they should have a bit more redundancy.

It will probably be alright non-marine players. It is just a new challenge to adapt and overcome. Not even a particularly scary one if you ask me.

Executioner rounds are +2 to hit not -2.

Strange. It requires a natural 6 to hit in Kill Team. I figure that it would be harder to pull off than easier and GW was wording it strange. Still only 3 damage max. I still don't think it is devastating.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Strange. It requires a natural 6 to hit in Kill Team. I figure that it would be harder to pull off than easier and GW was wording it strange. Still only 3 damage max. I still don't think it is devastating.

It is not devastating, but it is nice for finishing off wounded characters or lone survivors hiding out of LoS.

Honestly? As a Raven Guard player I think the character thingy is just a gimmick usable from time to time. It doesn't even concur with the right doctrine as the UM, WS and IH one does. All snipers and sniper-like weapons are heavy, yet the Surgical Strikes happen during tactical. People should be worried about the redeploys and infiltration capabilities. Especially the aggressors. Everyone is worried about the eliminators, but you haven't checked the aggressors' potential with some strategems

 Crimson wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Strange. It requires a natural 6 to hit in Kill Team. I figure that it would be harder to pull off than easier and GW was wording it strange. Still only 3 damage max. I still don't think it is devastating.

It is not devastating, but it is nice for finishing off wounded characters or lone survivors hiding out of LoS.

Agreed. I think it is nice, but I don't think it is going to turn the tide of battle suddenly unless the opponent causes it to themselves by having too many eggs in one basket or being shaken losing a particular Character.

I'm thrilled for RG. If/when my csm find they can't compete I can just swap over to evil ravens for awhile and snipe other marines while I wait for the cycle to repeat in 9th.

Seriously though I used to play RG and I find their rules more appealing. Plus I honestly feel IH may be over hyped by comparison.

One thought is that the RG doctrineal ability is going to change how you deploy eliminators. generally speaking the math suggests you use guided aim with a sergant rather then have him shoot first but with raven guard, assuming this doesn't stack with their doctrinal ability (which we all know it won't) ravenguard'll be better off just shooting. this means you'll be more inclined to wanna take 3 bolt sniper rifles instead of 2 and a bolt carbine for the sergant if running ravenguard.

Kitane wrote:
Sigh, yet another utterly unpleasant army to face with the current state of Nids.

>10w synapse creatures? Army wide bonuses to hit and to wound.

<10w synapse creatures? An extensive toolset for character sniping and armywide bonuses to hit and to wound.

This is my issue with the RG rules. It seems terribly unfun to play against, unless somehow you've got a character-light army.

GW's current design bent seems to be 'this sounds so cool (to a 12 year old),' but they forget that it needs to be fun and interesting from both sides of the table.

BrianDavion wrote:
One thought is that the RG doctrineal ability is going to change how you deploy eliminators. generally speaking the math suggests you use guided aim with a sergant rather then have him shoot first but with raven guard, assuming this doesn't stack with their doctrinal ability (which we all know it won't) ravenguard'll be better off just shooting. this means you'll be more inclined to wanna take 3 bolt sniper rifles instead of 2 and a bolt carbine for the sergant if running ravenguard.

Yeah, you may still want that for the ability to jump away from charges. For whatever reason that move is tied to having that gun.

Yeah, you may still want that for the ability to jump away from charges. For whatever reason that move is tied to having that gun.

yeah just makes it a less obvious upgrade for raven guard then other armies,

I for one welcome our new black armored overlords.