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The sad thing is, Relic blades are VERY close in stats to Fists. Same AP and Damage. But only +2S instead of x2S and without the -1 to hit.

But Primaris cant take Relic Blades. Or Xeno Blades. So by modeling a large Xeno blade and using the STATS of a Power fist, I get to use the aesthetics I want but be closer to the stats I want. It's a win-win

Not sure how I feel about so many people getting hung up on it not looking like a fist. It's all abstraction anyway. And so far is the only 'counts as' in my army.

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Some people seem to be playing up how hard it is to remember things. If your entire army is filled with tons of proxies or conversions I would get this point. Remembering that his HQ (Gorgeous model btw) with the massive sword has a power fist doesn't strike me as all that difficult given that 40k has a far more complicated things to remember big green sword = PF.

Strictly limiting things to official bitz hurts creativity, especially for HQ units which should be cut some slack to create a great model.

I'd let that go.
It looks special (although it would be best if it's clearly different from the "regular" power swords your seargents are using) and is big enough to justify the fist ruleset.

I could see a problem if you'd use several of those special proxy items, though...

Nibbler wrote:
I'd let that go.
It looks special (although it would be best if it's clearly different from the "regular" power swords your seargents are using) and is big enough to justify the fist ruleset.

I could see a problem if you'd use several of those special proxy items, though...

Yeah. The sword looks different enough from an Imperial weapon that you'd pause and ask what he's holding. My gut would be that he's got a xenophase blade, without knowing what options that particular unit can take. It's less than ideal because I'm still looking at a sword where I should be seeing a fist (or hammer- which traditionally was close enough in stats that you'd read them the same)

I'd play against this, but I'd prefer he had a powerfist- or something that looks like it operated similarly.

I'm always happy to accept any kind of counts as, as long as it is easy to keep track of, is consistent across your army and is a reasonable substitute in terms of size/function.

Acceptable use:
1. The only model in my army with a xeno blade actually has a powerfist
2. All my rhinos are actually impulsors as I want to try out a new unit before buying

Unacceptable use:
1. All my sergeants carry xeno blades because they look cool, this one is a fist, that one is a chainsword…
2. This IG sentinel is a warhound titan

 Galef wrote:
So based on feedback, I made some slight changes. I still have to finish painting the blade, but how does this look:

Spoiler:

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Oh man that looks great.

I'd still have no issues with you using it as a power fist.

 Galef wrote:
I have a specific example that I'd like to get some feedback on. I want to model a DW Intercessor Sgt with a Xenophase blade since it's such a unique a cool looking weapon (I mean, it's weapon showcase on the Codex cover art, after all) but my first dilemma is: Primaris units don't have access to Xenophase blades.

My second dilemma is that I don't want to just use the rules for a Power sword since that seems like a waste on a Sgt model that has 3-4 attacks. Power fist seems more where it's at.
If Intercessors could take Relic Blades, both problems would be solved. I could model it as a Xeno-blade, but get a multi-damage weapon.

What I am asking is, how would you feel if the Sgt was modeled with a Xeno-blade, but used the rules for a Power fist? Would you be ok with the explanation that weapon is actually a special Xeno/Relic blade hybrid.

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I wouldn't care. As long as you tell me what the weapon is beforehand, it's fine to me.

Well, if you want your Sgt to have a Powerfist then maybe model him with a Powerfist?

Just saying.

It's not a deal breaker, but a TO might have other ideas.

I'd play you if you came into my FLGS though, especially if you said you were Galef from Dakka. Even with your Xeno blade not Xeno blade Powerfist. Or whatever it is.

My only request when playing is that the army be painted. I really couldn't care less which wargear you're using so long as it's paid for, even though I personally like to be WYSIWIG for myself.
But that's just me.

Dandelion wrote:
My only request when playing is that the army be painted. I really couldn't care less which wargear you're using so long as it's paid for, even though I personally like to be WYSIWIG for myself.
But that's just me.

Changing topics a bit but I always cut newer players slack on this. Main thing I want to see week to week is a bit of progress and at a minimum base your models. Even an all one color army looks better than a sea of plastic.

I have to point out...you asked for peoples opinions on it. They're giving you their opinions. Why is that an issue?

I don't like proxies like this, simply because the onus to remember something should never be on your opponent. The onus is on you to present and fair and representative army on the tabletop. If I see a sword, at a glance I want to know it's a power sword. That's my opinion - you don't have to share it, but you asked (literally what this thread was started for...)

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
My only request when playing is that the army be painted. I really couldn't care less which wargear you're using so long as it's paid for, even though I personally like to be WYSIWIG for myself.
But that's just me.

Changing topics a bit but I always cut newer players slack on this. Main thing I want to see week to week is a bit of progress and at a minimum base your models. Even an all one color army looks better than a sea of plastic.

Considering almost all armies are undecoated with grey paint, how do they look different from a non painted army?

I can see both sides.

You saying "all sergeants have power fists - here's the list" certainly makes it easier.

On the other hand, if it looks like a sword, smells like a sword, tastes like a sword....

It's cool (which helps), but at a glance it still looks like a different threat level as I scan your army deciding my strategy.

 Elbows wrote:
I have to point out...you asked for peoples opinions on it. They're giving you their opinions. Why is that an issue?

I don't like proxies like this, simply because the onus to remember something should never be on your opponent. The onus is on you to present and fair and representative army on the tabletop. If I see a sword, at a glance I want to know it's a power sword. That's my opinion - you don't have to share it, but you asked (literally what this thread was started for...)

Thing is, I have repeatedly provided a compromise solution that has been ignored every time. There is a precedent in the game already for large 2-handed blades (Eviscerators, Grimnar's Axe, EC's Sword, Axes of Contagion) to give x2 strength. Have the mini holding it two hands is a good enough signifier for me that you can comfortably count it as a power fist, which has more or less the same rules. The sword in question on the mini, to me looks relatively the same size as a normal Xenophase blade so is a no-no for me right now. However if it were held in two hands and bigger (like Seth's weapon for example) then no problem.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I have to point out...you asked for peoples opinions on it. They're giving you their opinions. Why is that an issue?

I don't like proxies like this, simply because the onus to remember something should never be on your opponent. The onus is on you to present and fair and representative army on the tabletop. If I see a sword, at a glance I want to know it's a power sword. That's my opinion - you don't have to share it, but you asked (literally what this thread was started for...)

Thing is, I have repeatedly provided a compromise solution that has been ignored every time. There is a precedent in the game already for large 2-handed blades (Eviscerators, Grimnar's Axe, EC's Sword, Axes of Contagion) to give x2 strength. Have the mini holding it two hands is a good enough signifier for me that you can comfortably count it as a power fist, which has more or less the same rules. The sword in question on the mini, to me looks relatively the same size as a normal Xenophase blade so is a no-no for me right now. However if it were held in two hands and bigger (like Seth's weapon for example) then no problem.

On the other hand, the hilt of the sword clearly indicates that it is meant to be wielded with two hands, due to its length.

Skankmarron wrote:So many that would refuse to play someone who puts effort into converting and painting a nice miniature, shame on you guys...

Not everyone has the funds to access a spare powerfist/thunderhammer either...

If it’s consistent across models or is only on characters go nuts man.
If people refuse to play against you because of it you are probably better of not playing them anyway.

That's not what people are saying at all. Not only that, but Galef has said that they do have enough spare parts to model it with a power fist if they wanted to, so while your point of "people can't always afford to model the wargear they want" is a valid one, it's simply not applicable here.
The same can also be said of the "if it was consistent across the board" point - yes, all the Sergeants have power fists, but they're all modelled differently, and for some people, that's not consistent. Would I be fine with it? Probably, but I can't say I don't get where the arguments against it are coming from - if it was truly consistent, everyone would have xenophase-count-as or power fists modelled, and all counting as the same thing.

What people are saying is "yeah, it looks great and I'd happily play against that conversion, but it's not suitable to represent a power fist as it is - why can't we play it as something else a little more suitable for how it looks?" If Galef then doesn't want to play with anything but a power fist on one model, then that's their decision to make, and all power to them on whatever their choice is.

Again, for what it's worth, I'd prefer it as a sword (hell, I'd probably ask if Galef actually wanted to use the rules for the xenophase blade or relic blade instead), but I'll take it as a fist all the same.

stroller wrote:
On the other hand, if it looks like a sword, smells like a sword, tastes like a sword....

I could never agree with this mentality. I mean, I get what you're saying, but "sword" is far from a concrete, must have XYZ stats.
After all, Power swords, Xenophase blades, Relic Blades, Necron Hyperphase blades, Eldar Ghost swords and Witch blades are all "just" swords, but they have some fairly different stats, not to mention the various Relic weapons that have VERY unique stats, yet never have physical representation "set" for any model

That's part of what appeals to me about 40K. It's a huge galaxy rich with diverse stuff. You can use your imagination for so many great modeling opportunities.
And even the game-play supports this (see the aforementioned Relic weapons).

In my mind, if you can model a weapon to LOOK like it could have the stats you are using, it should be fair game even if it doesn't look like the traditional thing the stats represent.

So for my specific example, I feel like I've checked off all the boxes I need to:
-My list is clear that all my Sgts have fist so it will be easy to remember
-There aren't any other 'counts-as' in my army
-The sword is easily big enough to get x2S & D:d3, but suffer -1 to hit because of that. Most Power sword equivalents are AP-3, so that matches already
-And finally, it's not even an Imperium weapon per fluff, so there is much more creative possibility. Eldar and Necron weapons tend to be more "special" than Imperium stuff and the sword I've models certainly evokes that look.

So given all that, I just wouldn't be able to understand anyone having an issue because "it doesn't look like a fist". It isn't supposed to. I'm being creative with my toy soldier.

EDIT: And side note, I feel like this kind of "limitation" that X must be modeled as X comes up most with Imperial/Chaos armies, specifically with long establish wargear. Xenos armies, otoh, often have bizarre and weird options that MANY players don't even recognize. So it is more likely that a Xenos army could "get away with" more count-as options since even a 100% WYSIWYG modeled army would have times in which the wargear would need to be explained to an opponent (sometimes every turn).
Basically, it's far more common that players are unfamiliar with many Xenos options that Imperial ones and therefore get more slack. At least in my experience, as I am primarily an Eldar player and I don't think I've ever played a game in which I didn't have to explain a rule, even when modeled WYSIWYG.

So I guess that's part of why I don't really "get" the complaints that are justified by "I don't want to constantly be asking what has what". I understand, but don't agree, because that's going to happen anyway if I use an army you are unfamiliar with. So I just accept that as part of every game.

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I think that new big cleaver communicates the fistyness better. than mere xenophase sword wouldn't have. It clearly has a two handed hilt. It would have probably been even better were it held with two hands.

Also, when I said originally that I didn't think this was particularly good counts as, I meant just not that. Not that I would refuse to play an opponent using such or that it was heresy to do so.

 Crimson wrote:
I think that new big cleaver communicates the fistyness better. than mere xenophase sword wouldn't have. It clearly has a two handed hilt. It would have probably been even better were it held with two hands.

Also, when I said originally that I didn't think this was particularly good counts as, I meant just not that.

And I think that right there gets to my ...difference in mentality. While it is a 'counts-as' on a technical sense, I do not see it as a "count-as FIST". Which I think is what you and others are see this as.

In my mind, it isn't a fist and isn't supposed to be a fist and therefore I don't want it look like a fist or "count-as" as fist. But I need it to have the stats of a fist to A) represent the weapon I've modeled and B) have the same rules as my other Sgts
To me, it's more appropriate to say it "counts-as' a unique Relic/Xeno-blade using the rules for a fist, since those rule best fit the 2-handed clever.

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No, I get it, and I appreciate this sort of rule-effect -WYSIWYG. Slow and hard hitting weapon with stats identical to fist doesn't necessarily need to be a fist. But It think it needs to communicate the cumbersome hard-hittiness, and I really don't think a normal one handed sword just does that.

I tell you one thing I recently pondered, you might appreciate it.

Gabriel Angelos is a terminator chapter master. However unlike most terminators, he has move 6. I was considering with representing him with a Primaris model in a fancy looking power armour and grav chutes. Artificer armour explains the 2+ save and he is dropping with grav chutes instead of teleporting in; rules for both deeps stirke methods are identical.

 Crimson wrote:
No, I get it, and I appreciate this sort of rule-effect -WYSIWYG. Slow and hard hitting weapon with stats identical to fist doesn't necessarily need to be a fist. But It think it needs to communicate the cumbersome hard-hittiness, and I really don't think a normal one handed sword just does that.

I tell you one thing I recently pondered, you might appreciate it.

Gabriel Angelos is a terminator chapter master. However unlike most terminators, he has move 6. I was considering with representing him with a Primaris model in a fancy looking power armour and grav chutes. Artificer armour explains the 2+ save and he is dropping with grav chutes instead of teleporting in; rules for both deeps stirke methods are identical.

Galef,

I enjoy your posts, but you said earlier that this was partially about leaving 5 points out in a 1500 point list. Really really? C'mon man. That make's it hard to claim the moral high ground rule of cool aspect. This is not a legacy model - you know what you are doing. So don't be surprised if you get called on it. Do those 5 points really matter that much? Like I said, you could have modelled a Powerfist and no issue.

Having said all that, nice model!