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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
At risk of breaking "no negativity", the bolded parts are exactly what I mean by people not actually having read some Primaris lore.
Both the bolded elements are addressed and actually disproved in some places (we can clearly see that Salamanders Primaris still have mutated skin, Space Wolf Primaris are affected by the Canis Helix, and even Astorath can sense the stirrings of the Black Rage in Primaris Marines who, according to Cawl, shouldn't have it). In fact, the Cawl part is the important bit - we only have Cawl's word that they're actually free of genetic problems. Even Guilliman can't be sure if Cawl isn't fudging numbers somewhere, or even if Cawl hasn't used traitor geneseed despite explicit instruction not to. I mean, for how many years were regular Space Marines considered be the apex of what humanity's warriors could be?

As for the "Ultramarine legion" fears, only one generation of Primaris were tube-created. Every generation since has been recruited like how old Marines have been. Furthermore, if the HLOT had any fears about the threat of an Ultramarine "legion", don't you think they'd have been worried that 3/5ths of ALL Space Marine Chapters (and only increasing) were Ultramarine descendants?

Again, not to treat this as a personal thing, but just to highlight my point earlier - many of the problems people have with Primaris are based on outdated fluff, and because of their initial issues with them, don't care about learning more, further reinforcing their disapproval, and repeating the circle.

Not trying to argue, and I get your point. The initial fluff didn't impress and that stopped me reading more over time into them. But somewhat disastrously when I have again encountered the fluff (in white dwarf mainly), it just seems to reinforce those initial prejudices (the Dark Angel example being the worse to date).

You see a nod to that sort of morale upset, but even what you have listed above isn't much. The history of the Imperium is littered with destructive conflicts over less. You might see civil war as an overplayed card, but it is what militarised political bodies do when they have schism. To my mind for a sprawling insane setting it is just too neat. And I can't see any reason beyond promoting a new toy line. Fairy snuff, its a toy company, but its method of selling those toys uses multiple hooks. For me the hooks for this failed. The subsequent hooks on the community pages and white dwarf have also failed.

Now I still thought I should probably get some Primaris to play the game I play with friends (and though I would use conquest mag to do so), but a bunch of us seem to have petered out together. Not sure why. New marine armies that crop up at the club are Primaris based, but the expected conversion of old armies doesn't seem to have happened. There has been an uptick in other armies ('Cult, Chaos, 'Guard etc.), it is probably a good thing overall to have more diversity, but its still surprising.

As an aside the legion thing was a reference to some underdeveloped fluff about the High Lords starting to rue the dependence on Ultra geneseed. Is an example of where the fluff could have gone. Hell the B movie solder dealt with super solders being replaced by better soldiers in a more interesting way!

On the "barely a word about morale implications", many sources (Knights of Macragge and the White Dwarf Blood Ravens fluff spring to mind) deal with this. However, we don't have things like old Marines taking up arms against them, which I arguably think is better than just more civil war. More civil war just feels overplayed now, and kind of generic - having them actually fight together, understanding that it's necessary for the Imperium, but still having problems with it, feels far more mature.

Well the good old Alpha's have flown the flag by slaughtering a few in Black Library fiction. Does that count?

 Ishagu wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.

You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.

The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.

Move on

It doesn't matter how good they are, just how Timmy they are.

Primaris are the ultimate Timmy infantry.

Dislike the fluff and the marketing strategy that GW seems to be aiming towards with Primaris being a replacement for old marines (same can be seen with the culling of older fantasy/AoS model lines).

Not sure what the context of "no negativity" is suppose to mean.

 Ishagu wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.

You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.

The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.

Move on

"You don't have any right to dislike them, any dislike is completely unfounded and being 'negative for the sake of it'."

I wouldn't be involved in any arguments about them if it weren't for posts like this. There are valid reasons to not like them. I won't go into all the reasons here as that's not the point of the thread, but I'll point out on the most superficial level they just dont look right next to my extensive current collection.

 Vankraken wrote:
Dislike the fluff and the marketing strategy that GW seems to be aiming towards with Primaris being a replacement for old marines (same can be seen with the culling of older fantasy/AoS model lines).

Not sure what the context of "no negativity" is suppose to mean.

I think the "no negativity" is supposed to mean "hey guys, let's not just fill this thread with yet more talking about why we hate Primaris" like nearly every other Primaris thread turns into. I imagine it's cool to say "yeah, I'm not keen XYZ", but no need to just come in and be antagonistic (like I've seen one user be - thankfully the post was deleted!) or make it all about how Primaris suck. We've already got plenty of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:
The Inceptors in particular remind me of the Dorvak models I built as a young child. It would be cool if they could all have those heat-shield hoods over their helmets.

Agreed! I had to do a bit of cutting and slight modifications to allow the open heat-shield to close, but it *is* possible, if inconvenient.

I am not sure why people who don't have access to primaris should be happy about them in the first place. And when I say people, I mean everyone. starting with marines that can't have them like chaos etc, through imperial armies like IG and ending with xeno armies.

My main issue with the primaris is their prices. $35 for a character, chaplain or librarian? $I-forget-but-it's-a-lot for 10 very basic dudes with few bling options? I'll wait for a local bring-n-buy and scoop them up for next to nothing or not at all.

However, the easy build primaris kits, when discounted, make for great blank canvases for all the extra bling bits I have. I bought two boxes of Reivers to get 6 chaplain heads for my Normal Marines and six potential heroes, librarians or whatever can be built on their bodies.

As for the fluff, I ride to read Dark imperium. I really did. But, see, the new marines are bad enough, but half the book is full of Nurgle and zombies, the two most overdone, boring Chaos threats ever to loll a reader into a boredom coma. And the sequel looks to be more of the same. I won't slog through Nurgle zzzzzombies just to find out if primaris have any interesting fluff hooks. Maybe in a few years there will be some Primaris fiction worth reading and I'll get into them more, but for now they are the lame, underdeveloped tacticool new hires that your friends are expected to train as their replacements.

Karol wrote:
I am not sure why people who don't have access to primaris should be happy about them in the first place. And when I say people, I mean everyone. starting with marines that can't have them like chaos etc, through imperial armies like IG and ending with xeno armies.

I don't think those people are on about actively liking them, but more just accepting them as another added army. Aka, Primaris being accepted like how Custodes or Genestealer Cults were - as another potential army for people to collect, even if they're not your own faction.

 =Angel= wrote:
Awful background

^ This. The fluff for them is incredibly insipid.

The models themselves are awesome, and if they'd just been a replacement range to bring the old marines into true scale, it would have been much better.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My main issue with the primaris is their prices. $35 for a character, chaplain or librarian? $I-forget-but-it's-a-lot for 10 very basic dudes with few bling options? I'll wait for a local bring-n-buy and scoop them up for next to nothing or not at all.

In all fairness, nearly all character models are too expensive for what they are, and even the new Chaos Marines are just as pricey. Yes, the CSM are nice sculpts, but so are the Primaris, IMO.

Not saying that it's excusable, but that it's not just a Primaris issue.

As for the fluff, I ride to read Dark imperium. I really did. But, see, the new marines are bad enough, but half the book is full of Nurgle and zombies, the two most overdone, boring Chaos threats ever to loll a reader into a boredom coma. And the sequel looks to be more of the same. I won't slog through Nurgle zzzzzombies just to find out if primaris have any interesting fluff hooks. Maybe in a few years there will be some Primaris fiction worth reading and I'll get into them more, but for now they are the lame, underdeveloped tacticool new hires that your friends are expected to train as their replacements.

Honestly, Primaris only fiction isn't honestly any more different than normal Marine stuff! The only exclusive "Primaris" stuff comes from material where they interact with Firstborn Astartes - I am quite keen on Knights of Macragge for this reason. The first half does drag towards the end, but the Primaris/Firstborn dynamic is played really well. There's no need to read Dark Imperium, and there's not really any scenes from the enemy perspective to slow it down.

Dark Imperium is at it's best when it's not dealing with the Nurgle stuff or the actual battles - getting insight into the Greyshields, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior (and Mortarion, to a degree) is the main selling point for me.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:
I am not sure why people who don't have access to primaris should be happy about them in the first place. And when I say people, I mean everyone. starting with marines that can't have them like chaos etc, through imperial armies like IG and ending with xeno armies.

I don't think those people are on about actively liking them, but more just accepting them as another added army. Aka, Primaris being accepted like how Custodes or Genestealer Cults were - as another potential army for people to collect, even if they're not your own faction.

Okey, but why would anyone be happy that not their army gets an update. And update for another army means two things. First that your army and your stuff lost a slot to get new rules and models, and second that there is a chance that your opposing army got better, and as your army didn't, this means yours got worse. Or is it like strickt rules stuff? But that is covered already by GW, no matter how good or bad a rule is, one can't change it, because only GW can change the rules of units or create new ones.

It is rather confusing to me. I mean I do get that GW is trying to make new stuff look cool, to sell it, and make old stuff bad so people do not want it anymore and new people don't pick it up, specially from second hand market or 3ed party companies. But being angry about that is like being angry that a company Co makes a lot of money.

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:
I am not sure why people who don't have access to primaris should be happy about them in the first place. And when I say people, I mean everyone. starting with marines that can't have them like chaos etc, through imperial armies like IG and ending with xeno armies.

I don't think those people are on about actively liking them, but more just accepting them as another added army. Aka, Primaris being accepted like how Custodes or Genestealer Cults were - as another potential army for people to collect, even if they're not your own faction.

Okey, but why would anyone be happy that not their army gets an update.

Because you can appreciate nice models? Or be happy for other people? Am I supposed to hate Grey Knight releases because I don't collect them? Should I be making thread after thread about something simply because I don't play that faction?*


It's not about being "happy". It's about accepting other people getting things, and appreciating releases in general. I don't play AoS at the moment, but I can certainly appreciate some of the new releases, because they look nice or have cool sounding lore.

*I don't mean to sound like Space Marines are this underprivileged faction that gets nothing - but it was like that before Primaris came along, and even when perfectly good Marine kits were getting updates and remastering instead of older Eldar and Ork kits, there was nowhere near the same backlash. Basically, Primaris didn't do anything that wasn't already new, in that regard.

 Ishagu wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.

You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.

The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.

Move on

You have the perfect avatar for the level of unwarranted certainty/smugness of your posts. Congratulations I guess.

I am being accurate in my assessments, not negative. The rules are always model driven to an extent, but 'what's in the box IS the options' is the monkeys paw answer to 'I want all the options to be in the box'.

The 'Primaris can't get in a Landraider' is an entirely sales driven rule. It's not a model driven rule and its not a background driven rule. Its only function is to separate Primaris from your existing colection and drive sales of Primaris vehicles. When Grey Knights were conceptualised as a 'foot' army and not given rhinos as an option (even though Inq stormtroopers in the same codex could take them) they still didn't have a rule stopping them from getting into transport vehicles.

You can move on and take your attitude with you. I'm quite optimistic about the future of my army and hobby. I expect them to resolve the background issues with retcons, implement sensible rules/options as the models get updated and at some point Primaris will just be marines in MkX armour.

All we'll be left with from all the controversy is a few divisive sculpts.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Okey, but why would anyone be happy that not their army gets an update.

Because you can appreciate nice models? Or be happy for other people? Am I supposed to hate Grey Knight releases because I don't collect them? Should I be making thread after thread about something simply because I don't play that faction?*


It's not about being "happy". It's about accepting other people getting things, and appreciating releases in general. I don't play AoS at the moment, but I can certainly appreciate some of the new releases, because they look nice or have cool sounding lore.

*I don't mean to sound like Space Marines are this underprivileged faction that gets nothing - but it was like that before Primaris came along, and even when perfectly good Marine kits were getting updates and remastering instead of older Eldar and Ork kits, there was nowhere near the same backlash. Basically, Primaris didn't do anything that wasn't already new, in that regard.

If anything I've come full circle back to having to remind myself that mini-marine units are an option, although it bothers me that a lot of the more abusable things are index options.

(I know, I know, Orks say "Hi".)

Using Chaplain Dreads and a Techmarine with a Relic Conversion Beam to create AT firebases that can't be targetted feels remarkably close to cheating. Right up to the point that you take on an IG list with three Russes with the Command Tank upgrade, 'cause feth that guy.

LeperColony wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Awful background

^ This. The fluff for them is incredibly insipid.

The models themselves are awesome, and if they'd just been a replacement range to bring the old marines into true scale, it would have been much better.

Cool, so who are The Awoken?

The reason I don't like, and still do not care for primaris is because of the obvious truth that my several thousand points of marines are going to be extinct as a fieldable entity in a few years.

All the new releases are primaris
All the best rules are primaris
All the best toys and wargear are primaris
Anything old (which used to be considered better) is inferior to primaris.

Someone basically just said. "So, you like marines. Well. Here is *Marines +2* don't you like it?"

I honestly don't mind the aesthetic of the primaris line. Its neat, they're cool models!
If they had some cross compatibility with legacy marines, I might not mind as much, but the fact that the two groups basically cannot interact on table top is incredibly frustrating.

 Vankraken wrote:


Not sure what the context of "no negativity" is suppose to mean.

The topic of the thread suggests that Primaris are being accepted by all. OP thinks that negativity (any criticism) is dying down and wants to know if YOU think that's the case, unless you disagree, in which case, don't bring your negativity into his thread.

Towards the end of a longwinded introduction where he feigns empathy with people who didn't like the Primaris (but surely have come around) and fails to address the real issues people have with them, OP equates any dislike of the Primaris marines with Nurgleite stagnation and a desire for NO new releases.

This is both a laughable absolutist strawman and an analogy drawing directly from the initial releases, where brave Primaris fought the evil Deathguard. Think about that for a few moments and you'll understand the mindset of the OP.

 Ishagu wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.

You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.

The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.

Move on

Oooh here we go again, like in the last thread about primaris.....like I said in the last one, nobody gonna say something bad against your honeybooboo while you're watching, right?

Look, you clearly want to convince people to like primaris or at least give them a second look, which is fine. You won't be able to do that though if you are being that condescending in every one of your posts about them. Instead of telling people to not voice complaint because it's not valid and just telling them they are wrong just because, explain to them why. That way you can have a healthy discussion between two disagreeing parties. Because like I've asked you on multiple occasions in different threads now, who the hell do you think you are, telling people their complaints are not valid.

 =Angel= wrote:
The 'Primaris can't get in a Landraider' is an entirely sales driven rule. It's not a model driven rule and its not a background driven rule.

Gods I forgot this...

I think things like this do make vets reluctant to join the gang. All games need an element of suspension of disbelief and anything which negatively affects that could impact on model sales. Certainly when primaris are brought up people will quote such rules. I don't know if it affects sales or buying practices, but it certainly makes me less keen. I should ask the others why the grand plans of Primaris upgrades came to nought.

As an aside the model rules/box contents thing is very irritating. My favourite marine force is the Deathwatch. The fact that i can't equip Primaris like tiny marines despite their armouries being stocked with all that exotic gear is certainly annoying. Worse is in an army that mixes terminators, bikes, jump pack marines and tiny marines in squads I have to have separate Primaris squads.

The only thing good about primaris are the guns, model wise.

And no, most people i know here are still not happy about them.

Frankly, the OP isn't wrong. People have gone out of their way repeatedly to crap all over anyone who expressed liking Primaris stuff. People do nothing but whine about Primaris stuff even releasing.

Christ, I've been catching flak for simply saying that the release has been handled fairly poorly by being spread out instead of just dropped in a much quicker pattern.

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I am being accurate in my assessments, not negative. The rules are always model driven to an extent, but 'what's in the box IS the options' is the monkeys paw answer to 'I want all the options to be in the box'.

But don't primaris models come without the options for the models though? I know people here were buying a ton resin kromlech thunder hammers and powerfists, for some of their primaris models, my store had to order them like four or five times, because more or less every marine players bought them. And they still out of them right now, so any new player would have bad unit set ups.

Most units tend to have all the options in the box, your friends may have been converting Primaris into truescale Space Marines (what they should have been from the get-go)
I'd imagine Primaris in a Deathwatch army may get more toys.

In all fairness that's how all Space Marine releases have been handled by the community for the past decade or two.

Karol wrote:I mean, I think there is something between being happy and unhappy about stuff. People in general aren't happy, and even less for people that aren't their family. So probably missing something here.

Perhaps. I'm generally very accepting (not *happy*, that's a different emotion) of people, even people I'm completely unfamiliar with, and if someone I don't have any connection to has something nice happen, I'm fully accepting of that, and won't be thinking "oh, I wish I had that!" So, comparing that to this - if an army I didn't play got some nice new updates and units (here's to hoping for some more Eldar love and some great Sisters of Battle kits!), I don't care that it's not for my faction, because it's for someone else.

And GK didn't get any releases, so I don't really understand what people would be suppose to be happy or unhappy about. If anything they got even fewer models then any faction, bar necrons I think.

I remember when Grey Knights first got their latest wave of models. I didn't play them at the time (and I still only have a single squad purely for narrative purposes), but I was still happy for Grey Knight players to have the new stuff, even if I didn't play them.

Maybe this is personal thing, but I don't think it's particularly pleasant to dismiss or dislike something purely because it's not for you. Indifference, sure, but to actively dislike it? I dunno, it just sounds unhealthy for me.

I am also confused about the accepting thing. How can one not accept GW to make official models for any game or faction. It wouldn't make sense at all. If something has legal rules it can be played, the question of accepting or not accepting their existance seems moot to me.

Because with Primaris especially, some people don't think they should have had those rules in the first place, and don't accept that they should have had official models or been introduced at all. It's the very idea of Primaris that some folk don't accept - which is fine, I might add. Just in some degree of moderation?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, the OP isn't wrong. People have gone out of their way repeatedly to crap all over anyone who expressed liking Primaris stuff. People do nothing but whine about Primaris stuff even releasing.

Christ, I've been catching flak for simply saying that the release has been handled fairly poorly by being spread out instead of just dropped in a much quicker pattern.

You're right of course- there is unwarranted negativity. There's plenty to like about the new releases. I think there would have been less flak had the release been better handled as you say, but my problems are mainly narrative- and how the background and rules interrupt that.

Christ, I've been catching flak for simply saying that the release has been handled fairly poorly by being spread out instead of just dropped in a much quicker pattern.

Out of all the things, that position get's attacked?

I mean it isn't like the release cut off in essence the extremetis of the codex and only piecemeal feeds them back?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My main issue with the primaris is their prices. $35 for a character, chaplain or librarian? $I-forget-but-it's-a-lot for 10 very basic dudes with few bling options? I'll wait for a local bring-n-buy and scoop them up for next to nothing or not at all.

In all fairness, nearly all character models are too expensive for what they are, and even the new Chaos Marines are just as pricey. Yes, the CSM are nice sculpts, but so are the Primaris, IMO.

Not saying that it's excusable, but that it's not just a Primaris issue.

well, yeah. I had planned on a Thousands Son army, but the prices killed that. Not sure I'll end up with many Sisters of Battle, either. It's just that The primaris don't have resin legacy models or a huge swath of OOP starter plastics available for less than ten bucks each (tell me if they do!), so there's no way to ease into the army. Also, the new sets have very few options compared to old favorites like the SM commander, DA veterans, and, of course, the Ravenwing Accessory Sprue. The Primaris upgrade sprues themselves seem sparse and stingy.

In conclusion, I agree that it's a GW problem more than a Primaris problem, but Primaris get the worst of it.

As for the fluff, I ride to read Dark imperium. I really did. But, see, the new marines are bad enough, but half the book is full of Nurgle and zombies, the two most overdone, boring Chaos threats ever to loll a reader into a boredom coma. And the sequel looks to be more of the same. I won't slog through Nurgle zzzzzombies just to find out if primaris have any interesting fluff hooks. Maybe in a few years there will be some Primaris fiction worth reading and I'll get into them more, but for now they are the lame, underdeveloped tacticool new hires that your friends are expected to train as their replacements.

Honestly, Primaris only fiction isn't honestly any more different than normal Marine stuff! The only exclusive "Primaris" stuff comes from material where they interact with Firstborn Astartes - I am quite keen on Knights of Macragge for this reason. The first half does drag towards the end, but the Primaris/Firstborn dynamic is played really well. There's no need to read Dark Imperium, and there's not really any scenes from the enemy perspective to slow it down.

Dark Imperium is at it's best when it's not dealing with the Nurgle stuff or the actual battles - getting insight into the Greyshields, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior (and Mortarion, to a degree) is the main selling point for me.

Yeah, I liked the non-combat stuff, but not enough to slog through the Nurgle. I'm up for a good primaris story, whether they are the main focus or not, so long as the other factions in the story aren't tedious. What is Knights of Macragge about?

 Daba wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.

You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.

The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.

Move on

It doesn't matter how good they are, just how Timmy they are.

Primaris are the ultimate Timmy infantry.

Going by the paradigm that's from.. That doesn't make any sense since Primaris tend to be competitive at this point. You could make a case that they are part of the spike and johnny paradigm as well. Timmy players tend to play big things and cool things, maybe weird variance things none of which Primaris are. This is the sort of category you'd see like the Three Land Raider player.

Because with Primaris especially, some people don't think they should have had those rules in the first place, and don't accept that they should have had official models or been introduced at all. It's the very idea of Primaris that some folk don't accept - which is fine, I might add. Just in some degree of moderation?

I think it is a language and me thing, because I really can't get my head around the idea of someone not accepting reality. I mean GW makes the rules, and no else can make rules, so being unaccapting of the rules, is not wanting to play the game? I am droping out of the talk, too confused to understand what the problem suppose to be.

I remember when Grey Knights first got their latest wave of models. I didn't play them at the time (and I still only have a single squad purely for narrative purposes), but I was still happy for Grey Knight players to have the new stuff, even if I didn't play them.

I don't think that is an universal thing though. People here are happier when something bad happens to other people, then something good happens to them. It is practicaly a national trait.

So, comparing that to this - if an army I didn't play got some nice new updates and units (here's to hoping for some more Eldar love and some great Sisters of Battle kits!), I don't care that it's not for my faction, because it's for someone else.

\
I don't think I know any people that think that way. The main assumption here is that what ever happens to you, it is better to think it is going to be bad. Because if it is bad, your no suprised and used to it. And if happens to be good, you can be suprised till something bad happens to you shortly after. Don't think most people have time to be happy or intested in what other people do. They very interested in seeing people fall though. Elections here are won on that, according to my moms husband.