Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 insaniak wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Spoiler:

After the fighting was done, the Crimson Fists marvelled at the return of Roboute Guilliman, but were even more grateful for the arrival of Primaris Space Marines bearing their own heraldry. Here were warriors whose genetic composition was closer to their own Primarch, Rogal Dorn, than had ever before existed. For his raw material, Cawl had selected warriors of Terra, and had taken them only a few generations after the original Imperial Fists had been created by the Emperor. Indeed, some had been held in stasis since the days of the Great Crusade; a few of the Primaris Space Marines could recall having seen Rogal Dorn himself. Again and again the crusaders watched the same tale unfold. When those of the Ultima Founding were brought before their Chapters, it was like a meeting of brothers separated at birth.

That seems a little odd, given that the Horus Heresy novels made such a big thing of the division in many legions between the terrans and the later 'true' legionaries. This goes back to what someone referred to earlier - it doesn't feel 'right' that the Primaris additions would have been received with open arms by their Chapters. Everything we've been shown previously suggests that they would have at best been viewed with suspicion and barely tolerated until they could prove themselves, and at worst (particularly for those Chapters with a little less regard for Guilliman, like the Space Wolves or Dark Angels) would have been flat out rejected.

Obviously, it's GW's story, and they can advance it however they choose - but it's discrepancies like this that make it harder to accept them. It would have made more sense for the ready-made Terran Primaris to have been confined to the Ultramarines, where Guilliman could personally oversee their integration and smooth things over where necessary, while sending out tech-adepts to other Chapters to show them how to improve their conversion processes on their own recruits. Some Chapters would still have resisted, and discrepancies would likely have crept in, but the end result would have actually belonged to the Chapter. That latter bit seems to be where they're heading long term, but it would have fit better without the initial 'You get new Marines! And you get new Marines!'

Just IMO.

Remember, there was only one generation of Terran Primaris, unlike the already formed legions meeting the new guys that were the Primarchs’ friends. They were it. The rest are made by each chapter from their recruiting pools. This was also in a disastrous time in which many chapters could not afford to reject Primaris marines, as it was pretty much the modern Imperium’s darkest hour, losing worlds on all fronts.

Many Primaris were met with suspicion. I believe that was decently established in the Space Wolves codex with segregated fighting forces. The Dark Angels in the short time after Primaris were introduced didn’t trust them either, as established in Vigilus Defiant. They “promoted” a Primaris marine into one of their upper circles without actually telling him anything so they could appear all good and well for the Ultramarines, however, Calgar saw through the ruse. It is only in more recent times that the Dark Angels are becoming more welcoming of the Indoctrinated (non-Terran marines).

You say discrepancies, however, I think it may be a more lack of knowledge of how the lore is being advanced on your part.

The whole frozen martian primaris angle was a mistake. That was people's introduction to the concept, and it wasn't a good one. It felt very much like 'hey. here are these outsiders coming to replace the marines you like.' They should have just started with the primaris being new tech handed out to the chapters. (The technology having been gained via Cursed Founding and other such experiments.)

You say discrepancies, however, I think it may be a more lack of knowledge of how the lore is being advanced on your part.

Quite possibly... I stopped buying codexes in 6th edition, and as I mentioned earlier had no interest in reading the novels past Dark Imperium.

But, ultimately, later fluff advancements don't change the initial introduction, which is what made people uncomfortable. If that later advancement had been the initial angle, it might have gone a little more smoothly.

No. They are not accepted.
They are heresy, and as Insaniak notes,
their entry and origin remain barriers to acceptance.

 jeff white wrote:
No. They are not accepted.
They are heresy, and as Insaniak notes,
their entry and origin remain barriers to acceptance.

While I won't dispute how their initial data could lead to a bad impression, that's simply not accurate right now.

Secondly, I don't understand how they can be considered "heretical", when they were created under command of one of the Emperor's own sons (massively respected), who was being endorsed by the Custodes (even more respected), by someone who was literally a personal acquaintance of the Emperor himself and was told by the Emperor* "You will do something that many people will consider wrong. You are not."

From both an in and out of universe perspective, what Cawl is doing is not heretical.

*paraphrasing from the latest Cawl novel, 'The Great Work" - if you want, I'll try and track down the actual quote.

 jeff white wrote:
No. They are not accepted

The rapidity with which Primaris have almost exclusively replaced regular marines in so many modeling blogs and social media suggests otherwise.

For every old grognard (myself included) grumpy about the scale creep or the shoehorned Mary-Sueness of them, there's a swarm of people who just see the really pretty models.

I like them. They play very differently. They're not "marines +".

 insaniak wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
No. They are not accepted

The rapidity with which Primaris have almost exclusively replaced regular marines in so many modeling blogs and social media suggests otherwise.

For every old grognard (myself included) grumpy about the scale creep or the shoehorned Mary-Sueness of them, there's a swarm of people who just see the really pretty models.

Well obviously. They're amazing models and ultimately that is the most important thing. I will much rather have great models with bad fluff than bad models with great fluff. Coming up with my own headcanon is far easier than sculpting my own models from scratch after all!

Alcibiades wrote:
I like them. They play very differently. They're not "marines +".

same here. I think they complement Astartes perfectly. most of my lists end up being 60/40 Primaris/Astartes or 40/60 Primaris/Astartes and they never disappoint. A razorback full of tactical helps provide "cheap" support for an Intercessor Veteran squad. same thing goes for devs & hellblasters.


They're fun.

I mean a lot of social media press can be done with GWs influence and finger on the scale for primaris. As well new entrants will see primaris as the real marines. I would interested to see how well they'd be doing without the PR arm of GW now.

Oh well, I'm neither really for or against them. If they ever squat my old marines, I'm going very much whole hog against them however. I never need to buy a single model from GW at this point, if they disregard all my time and money spent, they will burn me as a customer. So long as they keep the old marines in the loop and have Primaris as an addition to marines, that's all good with me. Even if their intro fluff was awful and I still don't like many of the uses for primaris marines who feel dull even if they deliver.

I just like my options and most primaris drops lack options and it's more whole squads of the same things, feels bad.

At this point my only complaint about Primaris marines is transport segregation, and in my case it's mostly annoyance at First Born not being able to ride in Repulsors and Impulsors rather than Primaris not being able to ride in Rhinos/Razorbacks/Land Raiders.

Stormravens are the big exception, but that's more of an aesthetic thing since they act like ground support choppers on the table and that fits well with how Primaris feel like they ought to work.

I've basically stopped buying First Born units at this point though; I'm still fielding the units that have no Primaris equivalents but I suspect strongly that eventually only Scouts will still have a role as "cheap" troop alternatives when points are really tight.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
No. They are not accepted.
They are heresy, and as Insaniak notes,
their entry and origin remain barriers to acceptance.

While I won't dispute how their initial data could lead to a bad impression, that's simply not accurate right now.

Secondly, I don't understand how they can be considered "heretical", when they were created under command of one of the Emperor's own sons (massively respected), who was being endorsed by the Custodes (even more respected), by someone who was literally a personal acquaintance of the Emperor himself and was told by the Emperor* "You will do something that many people will consider wrong. You are not."

From both an in and out of universe perspective, what Cawl is doing is not heretical.

*paraphrasing from the latest Cawl novel, 'The Great Work" - if you want, I'll try and track down the actual quote.

In universe it's really only justified by the Custodes who spent 10k years sitting on their asses, a Primarch most of whom were traitors anyway and there is no way to actually verify Cawl was told to do anything. From an in universe perspective there's nothing proving that Cawl is just lying and is a rogue Adept. We know Cawl is loyal out of universe because we have novels and such telling us his thoughts and intentions when he does questionable things. For example Cawl swore allegiance to Horus but we know that was just to avoid being shot in the face whereas in universe that's pretty damning.

I find inventing a super secret tech priest who was mates with Big E and made a bajillion even moar supa space marines and has been in hiding for 10,000 years and never revealed his newboys in any of the rest of the Imperium's many existential crises to be essentially bad fanfic. But considering 40k background has been bad fanfic for quite a long time now, I think it is healthier to stop paying attention to the new stuff and focus on what makes me happy in my hobby. The oldmarines will disappear, so people should stock up if they want them. The newboys have some nice sculpts but as a range they are not there yet for me. Give it time and they will get there. I have been playing since 2nd edition, and have seen this sort of thing plenty of times. The newboys will be accepted, it is inevitable.

pm713 wrote:In universe it's really only justified by the Custodes who spent 10k years sitting on their asses,

But are still massively respected and obeyed by nearly every strata of the Imperium. They're the closest thing to the Emperor's own will. You don't brush off a Custodes.

a Primarch most of whom were traitors anyway

Not that the majority of people know, and even if over half were traitorous, implying that the 9 Loyal Sons shouldn't be obeyed because of their brothers genuinely IS heretical. They are key members of the Imperial Pantheon - literally living demi-gods. They commanded supreme respect even when there were 20 of them and the Imperial Cult didn't exist. Nowadays? They'd be even more venerated.

and there is no way to actually verify Cawl was told to do anything.

Custodes and Guilliman. If they said that Cawl was acting under their orders (and I seriously doubt that Cawl wouldn't have some kind of warrant to show Guilliman's favour), who's going to be the one who disagrees with the Emperor's chosen servants?

From an in universe perspective there's nothing proving that Cawl is just lying and is a rogue Adept.

Except Guilliman and the Custodes' endorsement of him. And as asserted earlier, I cannot imagine anyone during the cataclysm of the Great Rift's opening refuse Guilliman or the Custodes' edicts.

We know Cawl is loyal out of universe because we have novels and such telling us his thoughts and intentions when he does questionable things. For example Cawl swore allegiance to Horus but we know that was just to avoid being shot in the face whereas in universe that's pretty damning.

And who knows Cawl swore allegiance to Horus in-universe? No-one who's around in M41, as far as I'm aware.

You can't just pick and choose what people know in-universe and what they don't.

But Space Marines exist outside most of the Imperium's organisation. They aren't nearly as servile to the Custodes as others and they have much more freedom of thought.

Again Space Marines know more about the Primarch's than other people do. They know that they exist, that some went traitor and it's not a stretch that one of them coming back could be a Chaos/Eldar/Other plot.

You don't need to openly refuse anything. The Galaxy is big and the Imperium is very slow to notice anything even with Guilliman, You can't take the Primaris Guilliman gave out and eject them from an airlock but you can but them in the more dangerous battles and be slow as you like introducing them. People wandering around with Cawl/Guillimans stamp of approval can't monitor everyone.

pm713 wrote:
But Space Marines exist outside most of the Imperium's organisation. They aren't nearly as servile to the Custodes as others and they have much more freedom of thought.

But they still know better than to go against them, the literal messengers of the Emperor.

The Space Wolves nearly bit off more than they could chew against a rather disliked Inquisitor. The Celestial Lions were nearly wiped out fully because they weren't fond of an Inquisitor, and Inquisitors don't have as much authority as a Custodes when it comes to enforcing the Emperor's will.

Yeah, Marines have "more" autonomy than most Imperial agencies, but even those kowtow to the Custodes.

Again Space Marines know more about the Primarch's than other people do. They know that they exist, that some went traitor and it's not a stretch that one of them coming back could be a Chaos/Eldar/Other plot.

Perhaps, but when Guilliman is pretty widely respected across nearly every aspect of Imperial life (the only more known Primarch is probably Sanguinius himself!), personally endorsed by the Custodes (who were far more aloof of any Primarch than even the most skeptical of Astartes) and a literal Living Saint of the Emperor himself, and is pretty spotless as it goes by nearly all records, I don't think I can really imagine him being suspected of heresy.

You don't need to openly refuse anything. The Galaxy is big and the Imperium is very slow to notice anything even with Guilliman, You can't take the Primaris Guilliman gave out and eject them from an airlock but you can but them in the more dangerous battles and be slow as you like introducing them. People wandering around with Cawl/Guillimans stamp of approval can't monitor everyone.

Oh, absolutely. But these are in the vast minority, and as we've seen, the Custodes don't take no for an answer.

Primaris might not be loved by everyone, but they are accepted on a basic level by the vast vast majority.

Smudge, you're arguing about whether it makes sense as presented. It can do that and still be terrible writing. Deus ex machina Primarch returning, an immortal super-tech priest and his secret frozen super marines being invented out of thin air, these two and the Custodes forcing the Marine chapters to accept the Primaris, sometimes at gun point is just gak narrative. It really is no wonder that there was initially a strong negative reaction to the Primaris, and that it still lingers to this day.

Now, I personally love the Primaris models, and I'm not gonna let the bad fluff to affect my enjoyment of them, but that doesn't change the fact that the introduction was botched.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
No. They are not accepted.
They are heresy, and as Insaniak notes,
their entry and origin remain barriers to acceptance.

While I won't dispute how their initial data could lead to a bad impression, that's simply not accurate right now.

Secondly, I don't understand how they can be considered "heretical", when they were created under command of one of the Emperor's own sons (massively respected), who was being endorsed by the Custodes (even more respected), by someone who was literally a personal acquaintance of the Emperor himself and was told by the Emperor* "You will do something that many people will consider wrong. You are not."

From both an in and out of universe perspective, what Cawl is doing is not heretical.

*paraphrasing from the latest Cawl novel, 'The Great Work" - if you want, I'll try and track down the actual quote.

In universe it's really only justified by the Custodes who spent 10k years sitting on their asses, a Primarch most of whom were traitors anyway and there is no way to actually verify Cawl was told to do anything. From an in universe perspective there's nothing proving that Cawl is just lying and is a rogue Adept. We know Cawl is loyal out of universe because we have novels and such telling us his thoughts and intentions when he does questionable things. For example Cawl swore allegiance to Horus but we know that was just to avoid being shot in the face whereas in universe that's pretty damning.

Addressed in the Cawl novel. He was investigated throughly, Turns out that the Skitarii he freed al came out and vouched for his loyalty including one whom had become a war hero due to the battle

So, the witnesses to his character are a bunch of mind slaved near servitors freed to answer honestly ? I mean I'd obviously believe everything they say, nothing off putting about it at all.

For me the tragedy is what could have been.

They have a Horus Heresy book series- they could have done a ton of foreshadowing of the geneseed being sequestered, legion recruits sent to mars and never returning, fething characters whose story abruptly ends on a ship with the techpriests.

They could have alluded to someone other than Fabulous Bill continuing Corax' research into the Raptor project.

They could have had Fist/Ultra relations strained when the Fists are fighting on Mars only to discover Ultramarine vox traffic- and several guardian companies defending the entrance to a massive vault, not participating in any of the Solar conflict.

Hinting or foreshadowing any of this would have made it feel like something planned rather than pulled from powerarmour wasteport.

In addition we could have had OG Heresy characters continuing their stories in 40k, meeting modern counterparts, remembering the Primarchs.

Crimson wrote:Smudge, you're arguing about whether it makes sense as presented. It can do that and still be terrible writing. Deus ex machina Primarch returning, an immortal super-tech priest and his secret frozen super marines being invented out of thin air, these two and the Custodes forcing the Marine chapters to accept the Primaris, sometimes at gun point is just gak narrative. It really is no wonder that there was initially a strong negative reaction to the Primaris, and that it still lingers to this day.

Now, I personally love the Primaris models, and I'm not gonna let the bad fluff to affect my enjoyment of them, but that doesn't change the fact that the introduction was botched.

I'm not arguing if it was presented well, or if people are supposed to accept them OOC. If you or anyone else felt that their initial launch was botched, that's cool, that's your opinion.

What I am arguing is their presentation and depiction in-universe. People claiming that "oh, they shouldn't be accepted like how they have been" or "guilliman and cawl are HERETICS!!" simply show a rather reductive view of the setting and both play down the religious significance of the Primarchs and Custodes while playing up the 'reactionary against progress' aspect. Again, 40k is a great setting in how you can choose to focus on or play down what you like, but making a claim like the above ones doesn't hold up for everyone's interpretation of the setting.

So no, I'm not saying if what GW did to implement them was good or bad, but I am saying that if you're going to use in-universe reasons for "they should be heretics!", maybe reconsider the situation in-universe.

@OP:

Short answer:
No.

Long answer:
Nope.

I have two main gripes with primaris lore, (the models are pretty good looking in my view outside of GW really trimming unit options).

One was during their initial debut GW went with no forshadowing at all. Cawl shows up during the Fall of Cadia with no previous mention and suddenly is the only tech priest at the center of essentially everything. I actually like Cawl's characterization and especially love the some what complicated relationship that he and Bobby G have.

Having said that Cawl should have been mentioned a long time ago and as other posters have pointed out a lot more of his experiments should have appeared in the HH or War of the Beast novels before GW pulled the primaris trigger. It's like the marketing depart decided to make a major change to the main line and forgot to tell the writers until a month before the deadline.

My main ongoing issue with them is they just don't add much to the setting background wise and essentially rebooting the entire marine line has left a lot of other armies and factions that either need better rules or new/updated models at the back of the line.

 insaniak wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
No. They are not accepted

The rapidity with which Primaris have almost exclusively replaced regular marines in so many modeling blogs and social media suggests otherwise.

For every old grognard (myself included) grumpy about the scale creep or the shoehorned Mary-Sueness of them, there's a swarm of people who just see the really pretty models.

Where can one see evidence of this, i would have though it a bit hard to judge on a large scale?

Obviously there is going to be a lot of primaris about with them getting new models at the moment, as this kind of media does bias bit a bit towards new releases.

On the hashtags i follow on instagram, and other media, the marine content seems to be equally split between classic and primaris though, i'm not seeing evidence to suggest otherwise.

Still extremely bitter about the lore surrounding Primaris and Guilliman!

I know a lot of these blurbs about the more recent stories are extremely condensed summaries but it all sounds like stuff written to backfill the hole they dug for themselves with the Gathering Storm + launch of 8th. Perhaps it's me being biased but it comes across as GW doing a form of damage control for the flimsy premise they made for themselves.

I can only speak for myself, but I vastly prefer Primaris to the old marines who have been plagued by their outdated scale for quite some time. The fact that their new profiles also represent more accurately what a Space Marine should perform like on the battlefield, is just the cherry on top.

Admittedly, some Primaris units do have a goofy design and I'm not a fan of Gravis Armor, Inceptors and Suppressors, but the standard troops and characters do look great, which is basically the first condition for me to gain interest in any given army.

At this point, I couldn't justify buying non-primaris marines anymore, because they just look silly in comparison. As for the lore part of the argument, I'm not particularly invested in it, so I don't take it into consideration. If the Primaris lore is implemented badly, however, I can totally see how it could be a dealbreaker for some people.

I have a very visual approach to the hobby, so miniatures come first for me, and I believe GW has done a lot of things right with the Primaris range.

 BertBert wrote:

I have a very visual approach to the hobby, so miniatures come first for me, and I believe GW has done a lot of things right with the Primaris range.

Yaeh, same for me.

In a nutshell my answer is to build another new army where Primaris are kept exclusively.
The scale is correct to the fluff.
They have a better look to them in proportion I think.
They seem to focus on the proper squads fielded together rather than the weapon mixture inside the squad being the key item.

I have finally succumbed to making an Ultramarine army out of the big guys and look forward to fielding them alongside my Black Templar short guys: the contrast would look nice I think by keeping them so distinct.
An alternative is the unholy mix of models like with Deathwatch, entire squads of each type looks and behaves rather interesting.

I feel the Primaris models will be embraced as more variety is available, I feel they are on the cusp of being a full effective army without the "old" model range.
They still need to address tech-marines, (more) character models, artillery, light attack bikes/skimmers, heavier man-portable weapons, more mobile assault troops, Some 2+ save heavy armor suit and aircraft.

What is a bit of a mixed message is how they have not come up with an equivalent of the "smash captain" or why the new rules favor dakka centurions or some old models over new: Storm-bolter, Storm-shield, deathwatch veterans for instance.

Well, I have many thousand points of "old marines" so i am a bit vested in them (About a chapter's worth).
Been around since 2nd edition so have the tiny terminators still around somewhere.
It is a source of apprehension to see what is about $2000 of models become obsolete.
I would be lying if I did not express some relief to see the new SM codex did not drop anything much.

Scale creep has alway been a factor with GW, some fantasy battle folk could say their old Orks compared to the new ones look like Grots.
Since there was a fair bit of interest in "true-scale marines" out there it only seems logical based on the fluff and interest GW would address it.

My Black Templar is all old marines and I exclusively use metal scouts because of scale.
The newer plastic scouts are huge in comparison, I only use them with the Primaris army and I fully expect them to phase-out at some point.

I expect due to efficiencies both for GW and the Imperium that producing two different scales of wargear would be frowned upon and old marines will be told to "upgrade" or they should "volunteer" for Deathwatch where attrition due to locking horns with Orks is rather high.

Just looking at the pictures in the new codex, they grudgingly include old marines only spots where Primarus has no equivalent so you can see the writing on the wall.

 =Angel= wrote:
For me the tragedy is what could have been.

They have a Horus Heresy book series- they could have done a ton of foreshadowing of the geneseed being sequestered, legion recruits sent to mars and never returning, fething characters whose story abruptly ends on a ship with the techpriests.

They could have alluded to someone other than Fabulous Bill continuing Corax' research into the Raptor project.

They could have had Fist/Ultra relations strained when the Fists are fighting on Mars only to discover Ultramarine vox traffic- and several guardian companies defending the entrance to a massive vault, not participating in any of the Solar conflict.

Hinting or foreshadowing any of this would have made it feel like something planned rather than pulled from powerarmour wasteport.

In addition we could have had OG Heresy characters continuing their stories in 40k, meeting modern counterparts, remembering the Primarchs.

except that... THE PRIMARIS PROJECT DIDN'T LAUNCH UNTIL AFTER THE HERESY.

If we ever get a book series about the second founding etc. we can expect to see them lay hints. but the primaris project was not launched until after the battle of terra.