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ohh of course that pic is rediculas it's why I never dignify crimson with a response when he posts it.

BrianDavion wrote:
ohh of course that pic is rediculas it's why I never dignify crimson with a response when he posts it.

Stellar argumentation, mate!

Your stance is that there is no evidence for the old marines being phased out... providing you bury your head in the sand and ignore the evidence!

It's in the codex, it is the what the codex tells us. In the fluff it is perfectly clear that old marines are either dying or being upgraded. They're going away, there really is no ambiguity about it. The only question is how long it will take for this to affect the rules and the models being sold.

BrianDavion wrote:ohh of course that pic is rediculas it's why I never dignify crimson with a response when he posts it.

The pic isn't really ridiculous though, just Crimson's interpretation of it. The quote is clearly meant to foreshadow that there will come a time when all marines will be Primaris, either due to the replacement of casualties with new Primaris battle brothers or due to existing veterans being upgraded.

Calgar's words ring 100% true in setting as it's not in the nature of space marines to embrace weakness and the tabletop advantages of Firstborn (wargear flexibility, access to existing armored support, etc) don't seem to align with the in setting view of Primaris as being equally flexible through different application. The in setting view post-"ugrading is a possibility" seems to treat Primaris almost like a new mark of armor rather than an executioners of the old ways.

Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ohh of course that pic is rediculas it's why I never dignify crimson with a response when he posts it.

Stellar argumentation, mate!

Your stance is that there is no evidence for the old marines being phased out... providing you bury your head in the sand and ignore the evidence!

It's in the codex, it is the what the codex tells us. In the fluff it is perfectly clear that old marines are either dying or being upgraded. They're going away, there really is no ambiguity about it. The only question is how long it will take for this to affect the rules and the models being sold.

My issue with your treatment of the quote is that it doesn't imply weakness/failure on the part of remaining Firstborn, nor does it imply this change to full Primaris is happening any time soon.

Do I agree that it will happen? Yes, but only after GW decide that Firstborn don't cover their asociated sales costs, the overall GW SKU count needs to be decreased, and the Primaris range is in a state where the majority of marine players will be accepting of the change.
I don't know when that'll occur but I think we have a couple more Primaris range expansions (Gravis variants, Techmarines, and non-compliant chapter units in particular) before we see all Firstborn go away.

Jack Flask wrote:

Do I agree that it will happen? Yes, but only after GW decide that Firstborn don't cover their asociated sales costs, the overall GW SKU count needs to be decreased, and the Primaris range is in a state where the majority of marine players will be accepting of the change.
I don't know when that'll occur but I think we have a couple more Primaris range expansions (Gravis variants, Techmarines, and non-compliant chapter units in particular) before we see all Firstborn go away.

Yes, sure. But it is merely a question of how soon it will happen.

Who actually says it? I think that's Calgar.

Jack Flask wrote:

I don't know when that'll occur but I think we have a couple more Primaris range expansions (Gravis variants, Techmarines, and non-compliant chapter units in particular) before we see all Firstborn go away.

Agreed. Particularly the latter, and a general fettling of melee potential - I know we can argue melee versus shooting in every edition and in every setting (kill team vs 'normal' versus apocalypse) but right now primaris have three completely seperate units filling the slot 'dude with sniper rifle' compared to just one of 'dude with pistol and blade' - and that one is stuck at basic footslogging speed.

There don't need to be a huge amount of chapter-specific units (wind back to 2nd edition and the angels of death had literally two each - honour guard/death company and ravenwing/deathwing). You don't need much to retain the 'feel' of a non-standard chapter, especially since nothing stops you building on vanguard or outrider detachments instead of battalions. But they're not quite there 'yet'.

The character I feel should most get priority for the rubicon treatment is dante - firstly he could come with updated jump honour guard, and if they included a 'generic' option that's blood angels 50% done at a first pass level (add in a furioso redemptor analogue and a primaris-level death company and they're good for an initial update), but also because as of devastation of baal he's Warden of Imperium Nihilus, 2nd in command to Gulliman and frankly therefore a worthy second candidate for an "IMPERIUM units" level aura rule.

 Crimson wrote:

Jack Flask wrote:

Do I agree that it will happen? Yes, but only after GW decide that Firstborn don't cover their asociated sales costs, the overall GW SKU count needs to be decreased, and the Primaris range is in a state where the majority of marine players will be accepting of the change.
I don't know when that'll occur but I think we have a couple more Primaris range expansions (Gravis variants, Techmarines, and non-compliant chapter units in particular) before we see all Firstborn go away.

Yes, sure. But it is merely a question of how soon it will happen.

It might never happen..

let's use a historical example here.

Guns. The first Gunpowder based weapon was developed approximatly 1000 AD, in China, Firearms would eventually spread to europe with the first hand gun appering in the late 1300s. However they didn't immediatly replace bows and pikes and the like. with Bows remaining in use as a principal weapon of the english military until 1513, and Longbows where last used in war (at least by the Brits) in 1613.

Now the reason I mention this is that it's rare for a weapon technology to be replaced quickly, So there's a chance that GW could at least for the forseeable future decide to focus on the time period where both serve. yes old marines will eventually be phased out but if that won't happen for a few thousand years in the timeline then it's not worth worrying about

They're moving the timeline now, it will happen. And it will not take millennia, they're dying out already. Also, you really cannot upgrade bows into guns.

They aren't being phased out at all in fluff or in model form. The codex itself and other sources state that normal marines are still being made in universe.

Marines all supposedly wanting to go through the Rubicon for more physical power doesn't mean all will be able to, or allowed to, or that there aren't traditionalists who don't want to.

Poor takes from individuals who are, for reasons explicable that we don't really need to go into, desperate for an army and models that a lot of people love to be phased out, dont change that

robbienw wrote:
They aren't being phased out at all in fluff or in model form. The codex itself and other sources state that normal marines are still being made in universe.

Marines all supposedly wanting to go through the Rubicon for more physical power doesn't mean all will be able to, or allowed to, or that there aren't traditionalists who don't want to.

Poor takes from individuals who are, for reasons explicable that we don't really need to go into, desperate for an army and models that a lot of people love to be phased out, dont change that

Actually an appropriate picture. Like the false belief that Ostriches hide their heads in the sand, classic marines being phased out is a myth

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Jack Flask wrote:

Do I agree that it will happen? Yes, but only after GW decide that Firstborn don't cover their asociated sales costs, the overall GW SKU count needs to be decreased, and the Primaris range is in a state where the majority of marine players will be accepting of the change.
I don't know when that'll occur but I think we have a couple more Primaris range expansions (Gravis variants, Techmarines, and non-compliant chapter units in particular) before we see all Firstborn go away.

Yes, sure. But it is merely a question of how soon it will happen.

It might never happen..

let's use a historical example here.

Guns. The first Gunpowder based weapon was developed approximatly 1000 AD, in China, Firearms would eventually spread to europe with the first hand gun appering in the late 1300s. However they didn't immediatly replace bows and pikes and the like. with Bows remaining in use as a principal weapon of the english military until 1513, and Longbows where last used in war (at least by the Brits) in 1613.

Now the reason I mention this is that it's rare for a weapon technology to be replaced quickly, So there's a chance that GW could at least for the forseeable future decide to focus on the time period where both serve. yes old marines will eventually be phased out but if that won't happen for a few thousand years in the timeline then it's not worth worrying about

That's a poor comparison. Early guns were unreliable, expensive and required more training, and gunpowder was more difficult to acquire than arrows. They also had a much lower rate of fire, and weren't notably better against the vast majority of targets. They were a specialist weapon that wasn't very good and wasn't necessary against the existing defensive tech. As those two factors changed (as well as the industrial base to produce guns and ammo), they became more common

Primaris are presented as a statically better replacement, aren't notably more difficult to produce, and come with (what appears to be) several improvements and fixes (some gene lines lost organs- IF can't hibernate, for example. The primaris versions have that back).


The primaris comparison is more appropriately compared to adding rifling to 19th century gun tech. It makes the gun better.

locarno24 wrote:

The character I feel should most get priority for the rubicon treatment is dante

Wouldnt that just throw all sorts of shade into his visions.

the ancient wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

The character I feel should most get priority for the rubicon treatment is dante

Wouldnt that just throw all sorts of shade into his visions.

Plot twist: Dante's visions are a combination of senility and insanity.

Now its just one big get of my lawnpire. Damn primaris.
Please cousin. Step into my cough erm charitable blood bank mobile.
Except he used to see the emps sword on his lap, now he doesnt. But he still sees the end.

 Crimson wrote:
They're moving the timeline now, it will happen. And it will not take millennia, they're dying out already. Also, you really cannot upgrade bows into guns.

You can make bows with exploding arrowheads, though.

 Crimson wrote:
They're moving the timeline now, it will happen. And it will not take millennia, they're dying out already. Also, you really cannot upgrade bows into guns.

They've taken one jump of about a century from the pre-Cicatrix Maledictum to the "current" time period, but per Andy Clarke on Voxcast # 22, they're pausing again to expand and deepen the setting again. I'm sure the "old" marines will be replaced in the background, but until Space Marine Tactical Squads disappear from the GW webstore, it's all baseless speculation.

I'm with Seth, and his predecessor Nassir Amit who railed against RG's Codex Astartes and the breaking up of the Legions. However, the Blood Angels and their successor chapters in particular are in desperate need of reinforcement.

Also the Khovan incident, where Primaris Blood Angels went berserk against the taunting Alpha Legion and tore them limb from limb, suggests the Blood of Sanguinius is mightier than Cawl's architecture.

As the Book of Lemartes says, "The bonds of blood transcend all others, and no blood runs stronger than that of Sanguinius."

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They're moving the timeline now, it will happen. And it will not take millennia, they're dying out already. Also, you really cannot upgrade bows into guns.

They've taken one jump of about a century from the pre-Cicatrix Maledictum to the "current" time period, but per Andy Clarke on Voxcast # 22, they're pausing again to expand and deepen the setting again. I'm sure the "old" marines will be replaced in the background, but until Space Marine Tactical Squads disappear from the GW webstore, it's all baseless speculation.

Dark Angels are upgrading anyone who gets seriously injured since the Rubricon can heal injuries that even a Dreadnought Sarcophagus can keep alive, in addition to all their new recruits being given the Primaris treatment.

Considering that even the most cagey of chapters is embracing them completely (except you Grey Shields, go back to the corner), I think it's an inevitable thing that's waiting for the Primaris line to to have enough options to feel like a viable stand alone army without the regular Marines. At that time they'll put the old Marines on direct order only and start running down inventory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Darian Aarush wrote:
I'm with Seth, and his predecessor Nassir Amit who railed against RG's Codex Astartes and the breaking up of the Legions. However, the Blood Angels and their successor chapters in particular are in desperate need of reinforcement.

Also the Khovan incident, where Primaris Blood Angels went berserk against the taunting Alpha Legion and tore them limb from limb, suggests the Blood of Sanguinius is mightier than Cawl's architecture.

As the Book of Lemartes says, "The bonds of blood transcend all others, and no blood runs stronger than that of Sanguinius."

Cawl left the Red Thirst and the Wulfen Curse in the geneseeds as he sees those things as features, not bugs.

All we're waiting for now is for them to release a Death Company upgrade sprue and Blood Angels will be back to being tragic space vampires struggling to not become mindless monsters.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They're moving the timeline now, it will happen. And it will not take millennia, they're dying out already. Also, you really cannot upgrade bows into guns.

They've taken one jump of about a century from the pre-Cicatrix Maledictum to the "current" time period, but per Andy Clarke on Voxcast # 22, they're pausing again to expand and deepen the setting again. I'm sure the "old" marines will be replaced in the background, but until Space Marine Tactical Squads disappear from the GW webstore, it's all baseless speculation.

Dark Angels are upgrading anyone who gets seriously injured since the Rubricon can heal injuries that even a Dreadnought Sarcophagus can keep alive, in addition to all their new recruits being given the Primaris treatment.

Considering that even the most cagey of chapters is embracing them completely (except you Grey Shields, go back to the corner), I think it's an inevitable thing that's waiting for the Primaris line to to have enough options to feel like a viable stand alone army without the regular Marines. At that time they'll put the old Marines on direct order only and start running down inventory.

You are wrong on a couple of points there. The Dark Angels IA does not say all the new DA recruits are primaris.

They also have embraced some Grey Shields who they deem trustworthy; the IA article and accompanying short story goes into this issue and tells the story of primaris brother Apaharan joining the Deathwing. He is a Grey Shield.

Jimbobbyish wrote:
I just wanted to draw attention to this article I read on spikeybits: https://spikeybits.com/2019/09/regular-space-marines-40ks-next-thunder-warriors.html

To summarize: Spikeybits brings up the book “Of Honour and Iron”, they talk about the comparisons between Space Marines replacing Thunder warriors, and now Primaris Marines replacing Space Marines. Gabriel Seth is also brought up because he feels like the Primaris have a darker existence. He feels that Chapters who accept the Primaris will become “Ultramarines in red armor”. Spikeybits also points out special characters becoming Primaris Marines and the sudden lack of stratagems for old marine vehicles like the predator and vindicator.

I have always felt that in retrospect the emperor should have kept the thunder warriors and simply improved on them for interstellar conquest and not bother with spacemarines and primarchs.

It would still have been enough together with the imperial Army to conquer the Galaxy though without Primarchs it would have taken longer.

Well, in retrospect the Primarchs obviously were a mistake from both in-universe and narrative perspective.

I don't see how a Primarch is a mistake from in universe at all. The problems stemmed from their mismanagement.

pm713 wrote:
I don't see how a Primarch is a mistake from in universe at all. The problems stemmed from their mismanagement.

It is unwise to create such powerful beings if you're not sure you can control them.

 Crimson wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't see how a Primarch is a mistake from in universe at all. The problems stemmed from their mismanagement.

It is unwise to create such powerful beings if you're not sure you can control them.

He 100% could control them and really if you just take out the loony ones they were generally trustworthy. The reason it went so wrong is because the Big E was an idiot which really just stems from the way the lore developed.

pm713 wrote:

He 100% could control them

He very obviously couldn't!

and really if you just take out the loony ones they were generally trustworthy.

That's half of them! Not exactly a glowing endorsement. "These candies are great! Only half of them will poison you!"

The reason it went so wrong is because the Big E was an idiot which really just stems from the way the lore developed.

Well, yes. If you're an idiot, then perhaps not create a non-idiot-proof superbeing program. Then again, one probably needs not to be an idiot to realise this...

There's a difference between can and do. I can break a window with a brick but that doesn't mean I will. The Emperor easily had enough psychic power to forcibly control them and was supposed to be able to raise them to be loyal to him.

Two were crazy. Two.

Thunder Warriors were unstable and far from complete. In all likelihood the Emperor knew they'd be more easilly corrupted by Chaos so he went with rolling out the Astartes to replace them (while leaving some things out since he was still on a deadline to finish before Chaos stopped infighging with Slaanesh and paid attention to him).

That's not much of a deadline. Chaos is always infighting and it's impossible for any of them to win. You may as well say the Emperor had to finish before the end of the universe.

pm713 wrote:
That's not much of a deadline. Chaos is always infighting and it's impossible for any of them to win. You may as well say the Emperor had to finish before the end of the universe.

Except he was using the distraction of Slaanesh's birth to hide his plans. An opportunity like that only comes maybe once.