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2019/10/03 16:12:56
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
I will post some Elegoo Mars samples in the next day or so, side-by-side with my Ender 3 pro print of the same mini. I am blown away... I use the grey resin, so you can see the details and finish pretty good.
My Ender 3 Pro is still busy printing out terrain, though! Although the print area on the resin is much, much smaller, I can fit 8-10 30mm minis in a print run and only the height determines the print time. The resin takes about 3-4 hours to print and the FDM takes about 10 hours (at the highest setting) to print the same 10 minis.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/03 16:20:54
Thanks, I checked the pictures on Amazon and I don't think they show everything.
The wall e seems to have a lot of texture problems. The castle is unreadable because of the material, I'm quite sure it doesn't look that good after a light priming.
That said, it does look like it could be good enough for some uses... and it's so cheap it makes you want to try lol
Thanks MDSW for your samples
2019/10/03 23:00:09
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
Chamberlain wrote: I totally agree that a 3d printer for someone who is not technically inclined and willing to put in the time will likely lead to frustration and abandonment. However, I'm part of loads of miniature printing facebook groups and discords and tons of people really do just get a resin printer, join a patreon that supplies ready to print files and go to town making figures for their D&D games.
I also don't think the typical gamer is a figure painter first and foremost. Most people I've come across will not bother with gap filling and sanding and certainly aren't going to resculpt things to make them perfect.
Reaper is on their fifth multi million dollar kickstarter for cheap miniatures as I type this. So obviously there is loads of interest in painting cheap and cheerful miniatures for gaming.
Igenstiltch - is this good enough for you? Only you can decide:
Some of the RPG file collections out there look fantastic. The information in this thread has been very good, and I'm currently leaning towards the Elegoo Mars or Epax X1. (I was considering the Photon, but the list of issues was concerning.)
I have had a FDM printer, Creality CR-10S, for about a year now ($600 at time of purchase). While I have gotten many good pieces out of it. The majority have been failures, and honestly the whole thing has been a constant nightmare. Dozens if not close to a hundred hours trouble shooting and babying the prints. (Curling prints, knocking over supports, bad distance sensor, tearing its own fan and hose off, etc.) The FDM I have has been (what I assume to be) abnormally problematic.
The improvement in detail will be nice, and hopefully a shorter list of problems.
Pics of some of the "successful" prints.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/03 23:02:03
"Accept that Tzeentch has a place for all of us in his grand scheme, and be happy in the part you have to play." "This is Chaos. We don't "ka-frickin'-boom" here."
2019/10/04 01:27:51
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
It's so much harder to print good miniatures at our scale with plastic printers. You have to be really careful to position them with as many flat sides on the bottom and orienting them to minimize the need for supports that damage detail.
2019/10/04 08:01:49
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
I have had a FDM printer, Creality CR-10S, for about a year now ($600 at time of purchase). While I have gotten many good pieces out of it. The majority have been failures, and honestly the whole thing has been a constant nightmare.
We managed to make it work fine, after a lot of tuning and mods.
Then realized that everything we had not changed, frame, mainboard, etc. Was still garbage.
So we built a Voron V2.1 and it works smoothly.
In my opinion though, if you can't make a Creality behave and print ABS (a minor challenge in the grand scheme of 3d printers and their problems), affordable 3d printing is not for you and you need to buy Ultimaker or formlabs, i.e. stuff that sort of works out of the box.
Note: it may require a full rebuild and changing some parts / printing some mods, buying an actually flat printing surface, a PEI sheet etc.
If you can make FDM-perfect prints with a cr10, then you should build a Voron, it will be hard to tweak too but at least it won't break every 20 hours of printing and there are no steps back in quality improvement because the design and parts aren't cheap gak.
I don't know the world of resin printers, but it doesn't look like it has less problems than FDM.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/04 08:06:46
2019/10/04 10:55:07
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
Kanpeki Miniatures wrote: You can't do a finished mini with a photon, it will always have either resolution issues or visible lines.
I mean, I don't know
A bit better, given that boltgun, actually.
Thanks for chiming in.
My problem with your pictures is that apart from the Thunderbolt, they are mostly unreadable or not representative of a high detail 28mm miniature.
If I had your prints in my hand I could definitely tell their exact quality, but as such, I can only determine a max and min quality that would result in such a picture, and the min seems much lower than GW plastics.
For example, most of the grey resin ones look bad (but may be good), the chibi painted in gold looks to have very limited crisp detail (like you can get on some FW resin models) and has texture probably from the priming.
I've been looking around to find something on Thingiverse that could help better show actual miniature print quality.
I think this print, cleaned up, and Zenithal primed, could be a good benchmark: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3293403
I've asked the folks over at formlabs to try and make me a sample print of that primarch on the form3 so I can compare.
Do you have any 28mm miniature printed at max detail, that's also readable from the picture (high definition, lightly primed would help a lot)?
Sorry to bother you, it's just that I can't find any conclusive evidence online of the quality of resin printers.
2019/10/04 12:37:03
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
Thanks, I had already looked at it before answering in this thread.
On almost all pictures, it's impossible to know whether there are print lines or not, because they wouldn't be visible at that resolution.
Just to be sure: are those IG troops done at max quality?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/04 12:45:23
2019/10/04 12:48:15
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
Er, which ones? And no, I usually just print at 50 microns, because that's more than enough for my needs. I could go as far as 10 microns per vertical layer.
Every print on that thread save IIRC one is done at "low" resin quality.
EDIT: I think this review of the Photon has decent stills:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/04 12:57:55
2019/10/04 16:48:19
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
Albertorius wrote: Er, which ones? And no, I usually just print at 50 microns, because that's more than enough for my needs. I could go as far as 10 microns per vertical layer.
Every print on that thread save IIRC one is done at "low" resin quality.
EDIT: I think this review of the Photon has decent stills:
Indeed this explains a lot. At 50 microns they looked pretty much unacceptable for me, but that guy's prints look quite good indeed.
I guess it's worth a try.
2019/10/04 16:57:19
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
Well, I dunno. They look good enough on hand and I can print ten GW-sized minis in less than three hours, so...
Having had mine on hand (plus a lot of plastic, metal and resin ones), I'd put a lot of the quality jump into lightning and good photos myself, although getting the sweet curing time spot for the resin helps a lot, too. Printing the same minis with a second of difference per layer might make a huge difference in layering (too little time and the print might fail, too long and it will overprint and show steps).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/04 17:02:16
2019/10/04 17:46:52
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
The layer has A LOT to do with the resolution and I am still playing with that coupled with the anti-aliasing. I have heard it helps more on the thicker layers, but can tend to blur a bit when going much lower than .05.
I wish I could take better pics, but this is the best I can do. It compares a recent print from my Ender 3 Pro to the Elegoo Mars - the slight size difference aside, the Ender can hit some crisp details, but still way too much clean up, fuzz, layer lines, etc. I would take the resin version any day, but still tweaking settings to get crisper prints. And, I have to say, I need to put on my mag glasses to even try to see layer lines - they are virtually non-existent.
Ender set at .1 layer and Elegoo set at .05 for the Ogre and .03 for the 28mm figures with anti-aliasing set at 2 for all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/04 17:57:24
Thanks to all for putting up real life examples, rather than the advertising from online.
The Mars prints do look a bit softer in the details. I wonder if that's from the AA kicking in. The layer lines on the Ender look annoying, but the details look a lot more.crisp.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/04 18:56:22
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
I don't see layer lines, but the prints look markedly worse than the Ender apart from the lines, quite blurry. I wonder why that is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flinty wrote: Thanks to all for putting up real life examples, rather than the advertising from online.
The Mars prints do look a bit softer in the details. I wonder if that's from the AA kicking in. The layer lines on the Ender look annoying, but the details look a lot more.crisp.
Nah it's just startup issues. His prints will get infinitely better in the coming days as he tweaks the settings and fixes whatever issue causes this insane bluriness.
The Mars, the Photon and nearly all cheap QHD LCD based MSLA printers are basically all clones and capable of almost the exact same results on a good day.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/04 18:58:48
2019/10/04 19:33:53
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
Yes - I just sliced some at a slightly longer exposure and removed the AA. I still think .03 layer is good, but I can go down to .01 if I want - it just takes longer to print.
However, as a speed comparison, My Ender run at speed 20 w/ .1 layer will take about 14 hours to print 10 minis and the Elegoo will take about 6 hours. I have a few prints already in queue at the other setting but will post a pic at the Elegoo tweaked settings. Of course resin also needs a bit of UV cure time. If my tweaked settings look better I will re-print the heroes at the tweaked setting and we can see all 3 side-by-side.
All that said, the Ender 3 is IMHO the best FDM printer out there at the $200 mark, and with its big build volume it is great for terrain and other things that do not need a bunch of supports, since it really can do crisp details. I did a big Victorian Birdhouse that measures about 8" x 8.5" x 10" (2 pc roof) and it looks superb - could not do that on the resin.
I will also add that clipping away the supports on resin is a breeze, as you can almost pull them off. FDM supports are the bane of my existence...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/04 19:36:44
All that said, the Ender 3 is IMHO the best FDM printer out there at the $200 mark, and with its big build volume it is great for terrain and other things that do not need a bunch of supports, since
The 200 dollar mark is misleading though, as it's the kind of printer you'll likely spend 400 on in mods and fixes, only to end up with cheap engineering, structure and motion with nice mods here and there (like the crazy expensive 90 bucks genuine bondtech on a crappy 200 bucks chinese printer).
Like the CR-10 it can be a good starter but to turn it into a good reliable printer, you will need a new bed, a PEI sheet, a dual gear extruder, a V8 hotend, dual Z axis, tl smoother, stepper dampers, a faster bed heater, octopi, inductive sensor, enclosure if you want ABS, ...
But it's a great learning experiment before building a proper FDM printer, so do get a cheap Chinese printer ( I think tevo have an acceptable dual gear extruder in their cheap cartesian printers), and when you outgrow it, you can build a Voron or buy an Ultimaker.
2019/10/05 07:13:28
Subject: Re:3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
I am very interested in 3D printing, and the quality from an anycubic photon, or similiar, would be good enough for me. Price is very attractive as well. But, after watching this video, no thanks. There is so much cleaning needed, thats a lot of work, and so much trash is produced.
p5freak wrote: I am very interested in 3D printing, and the quality from an anycubic photon, or similiar, would be good enough for me. Price is very attractive as well. But, after watching this video, no thanks. There is so much cleaning needed, thats a lot of work, and so much trash is produced.
p5freak wrote: I am very interested in 3D printing, and the quality from an anycubic photon, or similiar, would be good enough for me. Price is very attractive as well. But, after watching this video, no thanks. There is so much cleaning needed, thats a lot of work, and so much trash is produced.
p5freak wrote: I am very interested in 3D printing, and the quality from an anycubic photon, or similiar, would be good enough for me. Price is very attractive as well. But, after watching this video, no thanks. There is so much cleaning needed, thats a lot of work, and so much trash is produced.
But 3d printing in general is a lot of work unless you go for more professional tools. Like the form3 plus cleanup and cure stations.
The cleanup and cure stations look like a good idea, why isnt something similiar available for the anycubic photon (or its clones) ?
There is one, at least for the Photon, and there's been advances in resins too. For example, Esun has just released a resin that's washable with water.
2019/10/05 09:44:22
Subject: Re:3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
But 3d printing in general is a lot of work unless you go for more professional tools. Like the form3 plus cleanup and cure stations.
The cleanup and cure stations look like a good idea, why isnt something similiar available for the anycubic photon (or its clones) ?
Well the Photon may not even be the original here.
But the main reason you don't see many clean and cure stations for cheap printers is that they would cost the same price as the printer more or less.
2019/10/05 12:51:15
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
The first mini does look very decent. The second one shows some very shiny parts that kinda worry me. Then again, I use an ultrasonic cleaner, so that would be a stark difference.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/05 15:46:26
2019/10/07 14:57:46
Subject: 3d printer for miniatures and bits options. SLA or DLP?
All that said, the Ender 3 is IMHO the best FDM printer out there at the $200 mark, and with its big build volume it is great for terrain and other things that do not need a bunch of supports, since
The 200 dollar mark is misleading though, as it's the kind of printer you'll likely spend 400 on in mods and fixes, only to end up with cheap engineering, structure and motion with nice mods here and there (like the crazy expensive 90 bucks genuine bondtech on a crappy 200 bucks chinese printer).
Like the CR-10 it can be a good starter but to turn it into a good reliable printer, you will need a new bed, a PEI sheet, a dual gear extruder, a V8 hotend, dual Z axis, tl smoother, stepper dampers, a faster bed heater, octopi, inductive sensor, enclosure if you want ABS, ...
But it's a great learning experiment before building a proper FDM printer, so do get a cheap Chinese printer ( I think tevo have an acceptable dual gear extruder in their cheap cartesian printers), and when you outgrow it, you can build a Voron or buy an Ultimaker.
I don't think so. For my Ender, I put the TL Smoothers and aluminum extruder back end (for a total of $18) and all of the other upgrades were printed. Mine is the Pro, so it has the magnetic bed that I can pull off and peel off my prints - it works fantastic. On stubborn sticking pieces and filament, just cover the bed with painter's tape and you can still peel the bed up, flex and get your print to pop right off.
All of the items you mention might be good as replacements when the original goes bad, but not necessary at all to get the best sub $200 FDM printer available, IMHO. I have put over 5 spools of filament through my Ender 3 and have leveled the bed only twice, replaced the nozzle and bowden tube once and cleaned off the extruder gear when a snag in the filament caused it to stick and grind up the filament. I have been running this nearly 24/7 for the past 3 months!
However, having just got an Elegoo Mars, I am reprinting many of the small minis in resin, as they look so much better. Yes, resin is certainly messier, but not too bad. As far as time, the ease and speed at which you can remove resin supports totally makes up for the extra time needed to clean (don't count cure time - just throw in an aluminum foiled box out in the sun for a few hours) compared to removing FDM supports, sanding and scraping. Each printer is perfect for a specific type of printing and each hold a very different role in my work. And I do A LOT of minis and terrain!
"This is Chaos. We don't "ka-frickin'-boom" here." 
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
