Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

All of the FAQs you quoted are in regards to Move/Movement/Moving after arriving via reinforcement-type ability and not about what's currently being discussed.

This circle is round.
Circle is a shape.
Square is a shape.
This square is round.

You can play word soup all you want. It has been redeployed by green tide stratagem.



DA JUMP



Da Jump has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a friendly ORK INFANTRY unit within 12" of the psyker. Remove that unit from the battlefield, and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from any enemy units. That unit counts as having moved for any rules purposes, such as firing Heavy weapons.

Da Jump STATES EXPLICITLY that it counts as having moved for rules purposes. As it has already moved for rules purpose via green tide, it cannot be affected by Da Jump per the FAQ that encomposses Swarmlord, Warptime, ETC.

"or because of a psychic power" A: NO

Redeployment counts as reinforcements. Using greentide counts as reinforcements. Reinforcements cannot move because of any ability or psychic power. Therefore they cannot be moved as Da Jump count as movement.

Ceann wrote:
You can play word soup all you want. It has been redeployed by green tide stratagem.



DA JUMP



Da Jump has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a friendly ORK INFANTRY unit within 12" of the psyker. Remove that unit from the battlefield, and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from any enemy units. That unit counts as having moved for any rules purposes, such as firing Heavy weapons.

Da Jump STATES EXPLICITLY that it counts as having moved for rules purposes. As it has already moved for rules purpose via green tide, it cannot be affected by Da Jump per the FAQ that encomposses Swarmlord, Warptime, ETC.

"or because of a psychic power" A: NO

Redeployment counts as reinforcements. Using greentide counts as reinforcements. Reinforcements cannot move because of any ability or psychic power. Therefore they cannot be moved as Da Jump count as movement.

Again, counting as moving after the fact does not make the power moving. Warptime causes the unit to move, Da Jump does not.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Ceann wrote:
You can play word soup all you want. It has been redeployed by green tide stratagem.



DA JUMP



Da Jump has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a friendly ORK INFANTRY unit within 12" of the psyker. Remove that unit from the battlefield, and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from any enemy units. That unit counts as having moved for any rules purposes, such as firing Heavy weapons.

Da Jump STATES EXPLICITLY that it counts as having moved for rules purposes. As it has already moved for rules purpose via green tide, it cannot be affected by Da Jump per the FAQ that encomposses Swarmlord, Warptime, ETC.

"or because of a psychic power" A: NO

Redeployment counts as reinforcements. Using greentide counts as reinforcements. Reinforcements cannot move because of any ability or psychic power. Therefore they cannot be moved as Da Jump count as movement.

Again, counting as moving after the fact does not make the power moving. Warptime causes the unit to move, Da Jump does not.

Right. There doesn't seem to be enough information prohibiting a redeployment/reinforcement-type abilities from being used on a unit more than once. The current argument against it sounds more of like conjecture based on one's interpretation of what "count as moving" could mean.

Where exactly does this game differentiate between counts as moving and moving? I'm not seeing the difference. Is there a situation where the FAQs make it clear there is a difference? Otherwise I'm inclined to go with counts as moved and moved being one in the same.

There is no difference. Count as moving = moving. Thats common sense. If GW means otherwise they need to clarify in a FAQ.

Da Jump doesn’t count as moving. A unit that used Da Jump counts as having moved. This difference seems to be beyond you.

A unit that counts are reinforcements "which it does from the moment Green Tide is used on it" cannot be moved again by any ability or psychic power.

Da Jump states that it counts as moving, you are assuming this is checked after it is done, not before.

You can literally argue any rule in this game to be interpreted how you wish by creative reading and semantic interpretation.

The reality is that no GW, NOVA, ETC or ITC event will allow you to perform this action. At this point this thread is just arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than practical application.
No one is trying to argue that Da Jump is preventing itself from working.

The issue is that Green Tide is counting the unit as a reinforcement, prior to the usage of Da Jump, which invalidates it as a target for Da Jump.

Literal definition of "counting something as" is to treat something as being a certain thing" which means Da Jump is treated as movement.

Da Jump doesn't state that it counts as moving. It states that a unit that has been "Jumped" counts as having moved.

I actually feel like most tournaments would allow it, because it has such niche applications and very limited benefit. Unless you're professing to either be able to foresee the future, or know exactly how it will play out, I'm not really sure you can say "no one will allow it".

The practical application is probably that the vast majority never bothered to try it, or that a different majority just never cared enough to double check whether it was "RAW", considering it's been about a year since the Codex dropped and no one has even brought it up until now.

The definition of "counts as" is treating something as being a certain thing" which in this case means treating Da Jump as movement, because it counts as movement.


Q. The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.).Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in and consolidate?A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it can pile in and consolidate.

Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex : Tyranid s, etc.?A:No.

Can a unit move for ANY REASON, after being setup on the battlefield as reinforcements "which green tide does".
A: No.



Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:
1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield.

2. Models in that unit count as having moved a distance equal to their Move characteristic that turn (and so suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons). If the unit has a minimum Move characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum Move characteristic.

3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn for any reason, other than to make a charge move, to pile in, or to consolidate.

4. If that unit was within 1" of an enemy unit when it was removed, it does not count as having Fallen Back when it is set back up on the battlefield.

5. If that unit has Advanced during this turn, it still counts as having Advanced after it has been set back up on the battlefield.

6. Any destroyed models in that unit when it is removed are still destroyed when their unit is set back up on the battlefield. If they were destroyed during this turn, they still count towards any Morale tests taken for that unit this turn.

7. Any models in that unit that have lost any wounds do not regain those wounds when they are removed, and will still have lost them when their unit is set back up on the battlefield.8. Any rules that unit was being affected by when it was removed, and which would continue to affect it for a specific duration (from abilities, Stratagems, psychic powers, etc.), continue to affect that unit until such a point as they would normally have no longer applied. For example, a unit that was within range of an aura ability when it was removed would no longer be affected by that ability if it was set up outside of that aura’s range, whereas a unit that was being affected by a psychic power that lasted until the end of that turn would still be affected by it until the end of that turn.

Are you making a Charge, Pile In, or Consolidate? No?
Then you can't do it.

That FAQ doesn't really support your case, buddy. You know what is a common theme between all of those listed things (Warp Time, et al)? They all specifically say "allow the unit to move". Da Jump does not say this. In fact, it is never referred to as a move at all. It does, however, make a unit that has been "Jumped" count as though it HAS moved. Now, you can argue that this means that Da Jump is movement, but you can't make a 100% certain claim that it is. It's, at best, how you feel it should be treated.

Or, in other words, ya might wanna check the things they listed as examples first before you claim similarity between them and Da Jump.

The issue isn't Da Jump, it is how Da Jump interacts with Green Tide and the reinforcement rules.

Which state that it cannot move again for any reason, other than to charge, pile in, or consolidate.

Of which Da Jump is not a charge, pile in, or consolidate.

But Da Jump is also not movement. So, it doesn't actually interact with the Reinforcement Rules. As stated, a unit that has been Da Jumped COUNTS as having moved, but that does not mean that Da Jump IS movement. As I said, you can certainly argue that a unit that counts as having moved would interact with the Reinforcement Rules, but you can't argue that Da Jump causes movement in itself.

You can, because the reinforcement rules clearly state that.


2. Models in that unit count as having moved a distance equal to their Move characteristic that turn (and so suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons). If the unit has a minimum Move characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum Move characteristic.

And the FAQ doesn't say "movement" it explicitly states "Move" and as Da Jump would require it to perform #2, then it will qualify.


3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn for any reason, other than to make a charge move, to pile in, or to consolidate.

 p5freak wrote:
There is no difference. Count as moving = moving. Thats common sense. If GW means otherwise they need to clarify in a FAQ.

OMFG read it.

Maybe "counts as movING = moving" but "counts as movED != moving".

DaJump is a redeploy, not a move.

I challenge you to show me where a unit cannot be redeployed twice in the same turn.

Flucking OY.

I am reading it, you clearly aren't.

The FAQ for reinforcements is stated clearly above.
When you use Green Tide you are redeploying the unit, it explicitly states in 2. that the redeployment counts as moving.

Then it further states in 3. that it cannot move again for any reason.

When you cast Da Jump, do you have to redeploy the unit?
Yes.

Does a redeploy count as moving? Yes.

Per 3. Can unit that has redeployed move for any reason? No.

You cannot redeploy the unit, so I guess what actually happens RAW is the unit is removed from the table, but you cannot redeploy it, so your unit never returns to the game.

You're still putting words in GW's mouth. A unit that redeploys isn't moving. It counts as having moved. GW has not stated that "counts as moved" means "has moved". There's enough ambiguity between the terms that an argument can be made either way.

3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn for any reason, other than to make a charge move, to pile in, or to consolidate.

Not putting any words in anyone's mouth.

It cannot move again, for ANY REASON. Is Da Jump a reason? Yep.

Is Da Jump a Charge, Pile In, or Consolidate?
Nope.

Is Da Jump a Move? You go find where it says Da Jump or Redeployment is a Move. I'll wait right here.

Q. The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.).Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in and consolidate?A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it can pile in and consolidate.Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from C o dex : Tyranids, etc.?A: No.

Is Da Jump a Psychic Power? Yes.

You can house rule this however you want, but I am sure people asking these questions want to know for practical play, not so they can have a semantic discussion for 45 minutes in the middle of a tournament with their opponent. Which they will then lose the event because their scoring is so low.

But you keep winning internet points.

That states nothing of the sort. Look again. I already explained that all of the Abilities that were stated actually say "target unit can move". Da Jump does NOT state that.

Powers that allow you to play out your movement phase is very distinct than counting as if it has moved in its movement phase?

I would say so. In the same way that an honorary degree is very distinct from an "actual" one.

Da Jump is a psychic power and takes place during the psychic phase. It has NO movement limitations as far as range. It has limitations as far as being in proximity to certain things. Unless you see a rule that spells out "You can not use psychic powers that redeploy a unit after X" then the answer is that it is legal. If you can find me a rule or FAQ which specifically states that a unit can not be redeployed in the psychic phase if it uses the Green Tide stratagem then you would have a case, but since there isn't one the end result is that this is legal.

Ceann wrote:
... it explicitly states in 2. that the redeployment counts as moving.

THIS IS A LIE.

It states that the UNIT (not the action, dunce) COUNTS AS HAVING MOVED.

You can count as having moved without moving. That's why the "counts as" text is there...because the unit DOESN'T ACTUALLY MOVE.

Show me where it states that you can't COUNT a unit twice. I flipping dare you.

If you cannon DaJump a unit because you can't move it twice, then are you seriously telling me I can't dajump a junit after moving it normally?

Note all of you people ignore this and have NEVER answered it.

What the flipping hell is wrong with you?

Read the rules for reinforcements.
If you move a unit normally, and then Da Jump it, you are redeploying, FOR THE FIRST TIME. At which point it can no longer move, except to charge, pile in or consolidate.

If you redeploy it, with Green Tide, then it can no longer move for ANY REASON except to charge, pile in or consolidate.

The FAQ states it cannot MOVE for any reason after being redeployed. Hence you cannot redeploy it twice, as it has already been redeployed with the Stratagem.

You are all so concerned about having semantic nonsense over interpretations of words rather than pulling up the actual FAQ's and looking at them. The reason it counts as moving, is because it moved, so you can't say "oh the power moved him, he didn't move at all".

Redeployments are not movement. Nor is Da Jump. Still haven't seen a rules quote that states that Da Jump is movement.

Haven't seen any rules quotes that state it isn't.

"That unit counts as having moved for any rules purposes"

ANY PURPOSE.
So for the purpose of redeployment, it counts as having moved.
Guess it can't move.

Reinforcements
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons.

Here's the issue: the UNIT counts as having moved. However, it doesn't say "Da Jump counts as movement". So, you have the Redeployment Rules which state: "the unit cannot move for any reason" and a Psychic Power which doesn't count as movement, but bestows "this unit counts as having moved" upon the target unit.

At best, it's an ambiguous interaction. Because you're in a situation where the target unit performed no movement, but counts as having moved, and a rule that states that it cannot move, but not that it can't be targeted by effects with "count as movement" that aren't actual movement.