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Karol wrote:
Don't you think it is GW job to produce a working set of rules for their model line to use in the game they design?

I've been playing GW games sine '91. In that time I've only seen them make 1 model (not counting terrain type stuff) that didn't have rules - more on that in a moment though.
Oh for sure, I've seen them produce some crap rules for things. Or rules that I think would've worked better if they'd done xyz instead of what they did. Or rules that I simply didn't like. And I've seen errata that's canceled out various rules bitz (often unintentionally & leading to more errata).
But everythings had working rules.

Karol wrote:
Or if they don't, then shouldn't their at least put a warning. For example model companies that make really complicated model kits, put a warning that this kit is not for new players.

They do this. Forge World kits generally come with a notation that resin model kits are intended for the experienced modeler.

And that 1 model that I mentioned that had no rules? The original metal Thunderhawk released in '97 near the end of 2e. It was a limited edition, #d kit. It came with a direct warning that this kit was intended for experienced modelers. And GW straight up said that there'd be no rules for it as it was not intended as a functional game piece.
Of course then along came FW a year later & we got Thunderhawk rules. (as well as a new resin model).

Karol wrote:
Then if GW doesn't make their rule sets to be played, and some armies are done by inertia, as GW has to make them, because they made them in the past, then maybe they should put a warrning in their codex or at their store, that army X is ment for hobby collectors and painters, and not new players that want to play.

Once again, GW makes playable rules. They might not suit you, or whatever deluded narrative your trying to spin, but there they are. So take 'em, leave 'em, get together with your friends & modify them.... No warning label required.

The capability for GW to hype me up for any of their offerings died around the same time the prices started to rise into absurd for my tastes.

They rarely release a new kit for my main army ( guard ), and when they do it's rarely the unit I want ) Rough Riders ), rarely as in so far never.

I feel like the story will be dumb, the new stuff will sticker shock me. Once i see whatever they make for guard, which will probably be nothing at all, if its anything it'll be some new artillery that will probably make people rage so even if I do chew down the cost the whines will be legendary.

I don't know, it's hard to get really overly psyched up anymore for GW stuff. I think the churn and burn is bringing me down. Though I'm happy for anyone who is happy for the releases.

Litmus test: Does it bring the other factions up to 4-6 free constant benefits for no points cost that the Marine travesty did? Pass/Fail.

Ice_can wrote:

drbored wrote:

Under such an event, you can expect even GW managers to struggle to drum up hype for any future campaign books and for the 40k story as a whole to simply... stagnate, kind of like before 8th edition, when we were always on the cusp of the 13th black crusade but not quite there yet.

Exactly which 13th black Crusade would you like to discuss
13.0 Failed
13.1 It's the same crusade honest
13.2 what are you talking about this is the 13 black crusade no other 13 black crusade has happend
13.3 just shut it Failbadon wins because we say so.

1d4chan isn't canon.

Well, I guess that it will be very successful.
At the moment, the customers seem to buy everything GW is bringing to the market.

ccs 780940 10588142 wrote:

I've been playing GW games sine '91. In that time I've only seen them make 1 model (not counting terrain type stuff) that didn't have rules - more on that in a moment though.
Oh for sure, I've seen them produce some crap rules for things. Or rules that I think would've worked better if they'd done xyz instead of what they did. Or rules that I simply didn't like. And I've seen errata that's canceled out various rules bitz (often unintentionally & leading to more errata).
But everythings had working rules.

To me if something doesn't work it is no longer the thing. A broken engine or an injured player, is not an engine or a player.

ccs 780940 10588142 wrote:

They do this. Forge World kits generally come with a notation that resin model kits are intended for the experienced modeler.

And that 1 model that I mentioned that had no rules? The original metal Thunderhawk released in '97 near the end of 2e. It was a limited edition, #d kit. It came with a direct warning that this kit was intended for experienced modelers. And GW straight up said that there'd be no rules for it as it was not intended as a functional game piece.
Of course then along came FW a year later & we got Thunderhawk rules. (as well as a new resin model).

I ment the rules. If they know they are producing bad rules or phasing out a faction or that the faction is only ment for some sort of narrative or open play, then they should warn people about it. And not first put out something defective, then hype up how they are going to fix stuff next CA, not fix it. And then enter radio silence as if nothing has happened or the faction didn't exist. If I buy a bike and it breaks down, because of being build bad, I can return it to the store. You can't return GW stuff to a store.

ccs 780940 10588142 wrote:

Once again, GW makes playable rules. They might not suit you, or whatever deluded narrative your trying to spin, but there they are. So take 'em, leave 'em, get together with your friends & modify them.... No warning label required.

Am not sure what deluded means, because all the translation I could find were insulting. If that is the case, then yeah awesome dude. Your making fun of a 15 year old, that invested 2 years of his money in to an army that doesn't work. Ah and the change the rules with other thing doesn't work. First because people aren't interested in house rules, specially if they don't help them and second because the idea is laughable. Imagine BMW selling a car that has to be pushed or pulled to be "driven" and their response being, that their car is just a frame work for people to fix and build a real car, and that the real enjoyment comes from building your own stuff your own way, and not getting a working car.

ccs wrote:

drbored wrote:

Anyone else feeling a bit... pessimistic about this Psychic Awakening stuff? That it's not going to be all they've hyped, not even close?

Not pessimistic, just apathetic.
I mean, I don't really care what they do lore wise. I stopped caring long ago. Sometime during 4th I think. So it's all about cool models & the rules to field them for me.

Pretty much this. GW's game changing campaigns are throw away trash that don't matter within months (or weeks) of their release. Have been for years. That they've upped the hype cycle just makes me long for the days when codexes were static with no updates for four to five years at a time.

Karol wrote:

To me if something doesn't work it is no longer the thing. A broken engine or an injured player, is not an engine or a player.

Well thats certainly a way to look at the world.

@Karol

While everyone agrees that competitively, grey knights are bad, they aren't unplayable, you can still put them on the table and play with them.
There is more to 40k than competitive games, just because the meta you play in is litterally the worst on the planet apparently (im really sad that you can't find another playgroup that is less toxic) doesn't mean grey knights are broken.

I've lost games against grey knights multiple times, yes i purposedly brought less than optimal lists but thats the beauty of 40k, you can talk to your opponent to try and have fun. If im playing a game for fun and i know my opponent's army / skill level, i'll make sure that i bring something fair to the table.

Again, its a real shame you don't get to experience that part of 40k and that youre stuck in a toxic meta.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
This post is IMHO evidance that the useal suspects are prepared to whine over PA. claiming "faction X didn't get eneugh" I mean let's assume PA is designed to operate over a year, and the stuff previewed is it. 4 new kits, 1 "unit kit" and 1 character kit. for elder and dark eldar each, assuming GW does this for every faction in the game in a years time that's a giant release. with 22 armies in the game. that's 44 new units. that kinda release would be massive indeed. but you know damn well we'd get complaints from the useal suspects about not getting eneugh, with harping about how aweful GW was for putting out a Grimdarius mini instead of "another xenos mini"

Classic Marine player response.

The 'usual suspects' are any players that aren't using Marines, then?

Marines don't need any new units given the release we're currently in the middle of , but no doubt they'll get at least new characters. GW can't keep their hands off their poster boys for too long.

Meanwhile you believe that craft world players should be happy with 30 year old miniatures that look like dog vomit because they're getting one unit and one special character updated. Unbelievable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Pessimistic? Sure.
There's been more posts about mehreen supplements than the "Biggest thing yet" aka, psychic awakening.

And frankly it's a damned shame.

This is also my take. Add that nothing changed from the last 'lore shattering event' in Vigilus and its not hard to see why such pessimism exists.

Can you blame them? No one buys Orks or Necrons or Harlequins. The rules for said armies aren't very good. People want power armor, they want to feel like master chief. Why is that such a bad thing?

VladimirHerzog wrote:
@Karol

While everyone agrees that competitively, grey knights are bad, they aren't unplayable, you can still put them on the table and play with them.
There is more to 40k than competitive games, just because the meta you play in is litterally the worst on the planet apparently (im really sad that you can't find another playgroup that is less toxic) doesn't mean grey knights are broken.

I've lost games against grey knights multiple times, yes i purposedly brought less than optimal lists but thats the beauty of 40k, you can talk to your opponent to try and have fun. If im playing a game for fun and i know my opponent's army / skill level, i'll make sure that i bring something fair to the table.

Again, its a real shame you don't get to experience that part of 40k and that youre stuck in a toxic meta.

The thing about this is that if he IS 15 then the 40k you and I grew up with doesn't exist. When I was 15 and playing 40k the internet wasn't a thing so our lists were like "I like this army/model so lets throw it and some other stuff in a list and see how it shakes out".

Now kids getting into it just jumps on the Facebooks, joins Super 40k Fans group and asks for advice on how to start and army and they get spat back the experience of 3000 people who've all discussed the merits and statistical averages of every possible combination of units, models and wargear for hours and hours on end and have distilled every army down to their peak efficiency. So the assumption becomes that EVERYONE plays the game that way and communities like Dakka who focus on the competitive element do nothing to dissuade that way of thinking and often look down on those that play otherwise.

Basically I'm saying that I agree with you that Grey Knights are playable if your meta isn't super serious face but its increasingly hard to find a meta like that because of the internet culture around 40k so I can see where Karol is coming from.

ON TOPIC
Why does it NEED to succeed? Warhammer has had a bunch of campaigns before and most of them only resulted in some fluff blurbs in codexes. I think Dwarfs got a new magic item in their army once after the Nemesis Crown event?

 Togusa wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
This post is IMHO evidance that the useal suspects are prepared to whine over PA. claiming "faction X didn't get eneugh" I mean let's assume PA is designed to operate over a year, and the stuff previewed is it. 4 new kits, 1 "unit kit" and 1 character kit. for elder and dark eldar each, assuming GW does this for every faction in the game in a years time that's a giant release. with 22 armies in the game. that's 44 new units. that kinda release would be massive indeed. but you know damn well we'd get complaints from the useal suspects about not getting eneugh, with harping about how aweful GW was for putting out a Grimdarius mini instead of "another xenos mini"

Classic Marine player response.

The 'usual suspects' are any players that aren't using Marines, then?

Marines don't need any new units given the release we're currently in the middle of , but no doubt they'll get at least new characters. GW can't keep their hands off their poster boys for too long.

Meanwhile you believe that craft world players should be happy with 30 year old miniatures that look like dog vomit because they're getting one unit and one special character updated. Unbelievable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Pessimistic? Sure.
There's been more posts about mehreen supplements than the "Biggest thing yet" aka, psychic awakening.

And frankly it's a damned shame.

This is also my take. Add that nothing changed from the last 'lore shattering event' in Vigilus and its not hard to see why such pessimism exists.

Can you blame them? No one buys Orks or Necrons or Harlequins. The rules for said armies aren't very good. People want power armor, they want to feel like master chief. Why is that such a bad thing?

Because it is a cycle of deinvestment, lower sales and further deinvestment.
Basically SoB Syndrome.

 Sim-Life wrote:


The thing about this is that if he IS 15 then the 40k you and I grew up with doesn't exist. When I was 15 and playing 40k the internet wasn't a thing so our lists were like "I like this army/model so lets throw it and some other stuff in a list and see how it shakes out".

Now kids getting into it just jumps on the Facebooks, joins Super 40k Fans group and asks for advice on how to start and army and they get spat back the experience of 3000 people who've all discussed the merits and statistical averages of every possible combination of units, models and wargear for hours and hours on end and have distilled every army down to their peak efficiency. So the assumption becomes that EVERYONE plays the game that way and communities like Dakka who focus on the competitive element do nothing to dissuade that way of thinking and often look down on those that play otherwise.

Basically I'm saying that I agree with you that Grey Knights are playable if your meta isn't super serious face but its increasingly hard to find a meta like that because of the internet culture around 40k so I can see where Karol is coming from.

I've been playing 40k for about a year, i never knew the "golden years", i'm able to ask people "hey, anyone up for a casual game with a lower power-level than usual?" on my facebook group.

I'm also able to ask "anyone up for a competitive game?". 40k is a social game in the end, you gotta be able to talk to people about what kind of game you want to play.

I come from a MTG background and i find that its the same as playing EDH and lowering/raising your powerlevel to match your group's.

Ask people to bring the non-optimal wargear choices, most people will understand, especially if they know youre playing greyknights. Putting an eradication beamer instead of icarus array on your Dunecrawler for example, or playing some meltas in your tactical squads. Bring some swooping hawks in your crawftworld army or play lictor spam in tyrannids.

If i were in Karol's situation, i wouldnt play with the people they play with usually, i'd try and find some random people that play in their basement, facebook and asking around at the LGS are both ways i'd try and find people to play with. Worse case, i'd find someone in my family to paly with and i'd lend them 50% of my army, regardless of if it means we play a 1432pts list each.

Can you blame them? No one buys Orks or Necrons or Harlequins. The rules for said armies aren't very good. People want power armor, they want to feel like master chief. Why is that such a bad thing?

Orks are still being bought, they are a competitive army after all.
as for necrons and harlequins, they are still popular armies with casual player. I speak from my experience but at all my LGS, Harlies are bought as soon as they are restocked for the most part, and necrons have a decent rotation going on. Just because these factions arent the top dogs doesn't mean they aren't being bought.

 Togusa wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
This post is IMHO evidance that the useal suspects are prepared to whine over PA. claiming "faction X didn't get eneugh" I mean let's assume PA is designed to operate over a year, and the stuff previewed is it. 4 new kits, 1 "unit kit" and 1 character kit. for elder and dark eldar each, assuming GW does this for every faction in the game in a years time that's a giant release. with 22 armies in the game. that's 44 new units. that kinda release would be massive indeed. but you know damn well we'd get complaints from the useal suspects about not getting eneugh, with harping about how aweful GW was for putting out a Grimdarius mini instead of "another xenos mini"

Classic Marine player response.

The 'usual suspects' are any players that aren't using Marines, then?

Marines don't need any new units given the release we're currently in the middle of , but no doubt they'll get at least new characters. GW can't keep their hands off their poster boys for too long.

Meanwhile you believe that craft world players should be happy with 30 year old miniatures that look like dog vomit because they're getting one unit and one special character updated. Unbelievable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Pessimistic? Sure.
There's been more posts about mehreen supplements than the "Biggest thing yet" aka, psychic awakening.

And frankly it's a damned shame.

This is also my take. Add that nothing changed from the last 'lore shattering event' in Vigilus and its not hard to see why such pessimism exists.

Can you blame them? No one buys Orks or Necrons or Harlequins. The rules for said armies aren't very good. People want power armor, they want to feel like master chief. Why is that such a bad thing?

Because you end up with a marine thunderdome in some stores?

People want to play Master Chief, but they also want Master Chief to fight the aliens.

 Togusa wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
This post is IMHO evidance that the useal suspects are prepared to whine over PA. claiming "faction X didn't get eneugh" I mean let's assume PA is designed to operate over a year, and the stuff previewed is it. 4 new kits, 1 "unit kit" and 1 character kit. for elder and dark eldar each, assuming GW does this for every faction in the game in a years time that's a giant release. with 22 armies in the game. that's 44 new units. that kinda release would be massive indeed. but you know damn well we'd get complaints from the useal suspects about not getting eneugh, with harping about how aweful GW was for putting out a Grimdarius mini instead of "another xenos mini"

Classic Marine player response.

The 'usual suspects' are any players that aren't using Marines, then?

Marines don't need any new units given the release we're currently in the middle of , but no doubt they'll get at least new characters. GW can't keep their hands off their poster boys for too long.

Meanwhile you believe that craft world players should be happy with 30 year old miniatures that look like dog vomit because they're getting one unit and one special character updated. Unbelievable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Pessimistic? Sure.
There's been more posts about mehreen supplements than the "Biggest thing yet" aka, psychic awakening.

And frankly it's a damned shame.

This is also my take. Add that nothing changed from the last 'lore shattering event' in Vigilus and its not hard to see why such pessimism exists.

Can you blame them? No one buys Orks or Necrons or Harlequins. The rules for said armies aren't very good. People want power armor, they want to feel like master chief. Why is that such a bad thing?

Because everyone playing marine is boring as hell, and not everyone has a power armor fetish.
The rules aren't good you say? Then make better rules. Its that easy. Just because GW doesn't know how to design for xenos armies, doesn't mean no one does.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Because everyone playing marine is boring as hell, and not everyone has a power armor fetish.
The rules aren't good you say? Then make better rules. Its that easy. Just because GW doesn't know how to design for xenos armies, doesn't mean no one does.

Agreed but its hard to get others to play using your ruleset, especially in a pick up game environment.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
This post is IMHO evidance that the useal suspects are prepared to whine over PA. claiming "faction X didn't get eneugh" I mean let's assume PA is designed to operate over a year, and the stuff previewed is it. 4 new kits, 1 "unit kit" and 1 character kit. for elder and dark eldar each, assuming GW does this for every faction in the game in a years time that's a giant release. with 22 armies in the game. that's 44 new units. that kinda release would be massive indeed. but you know damn well we'd get complaints from the useal suspects about not getting eneugh, with harping about how aweful GW was for putting out a Grimdarius mini instead of "another xenos mini"

Classic Marine player response.

The 'usual suspects' are any players that aren't using Marines, then?

Marines don't need any new units given the release we're currently in the middle of , but no doubt they'll get at least new characters. GW can't keep their hands off their poster boys for too long.

Meanwhile you believe that craft world players should be happy with 30 year old miniatures that look like dog vomit because they're getting one unit and one special character updated. Unbelievable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Pessimistic? Sure.
There's been more posts about mehreen supplements than the "Biggest thing yet" aka, psychic awakening.

And frankly it's a damned shame.

This is also my take. Add that nothing changed from the last 'lore shattering event' in Vigilus and its not hard to see why such pessimism exists.

Can you blame them? No one buys Orks or Necrons or Harlequins. The rules for said armies aren't very good. People want power armor, they want to feel like master chief. Why is that such a bad thing?

Because it is a cycle of deinvestment, lower sales and further deinvestment.
Basically SoB Syndrome.

Yes. This is the true downside, but I'm not sure what can be done. Something is always going to be the top and something the bottom. Are you familiar with the debacle that happened during the last big Steam sale?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
This post is IMHO evidance that the useal suspects are prepared to whine over PA. claiming "faction X didn't get eneugh" I mean let's assume PA is designed to operate over a year, and the stuff previewed is it. 4 new kits, 1 "unit kit" and 1 character kit. for elder and dark eldar each, assuming GW does this for every faction in the game in a years time that's a giant release. with 22 armies in the game. that's 44 new units. that kinda release would be massive indeed. but you know damn well we'd get complaints from the useal suspects about not getting eneugh, with harping about how aweful GW was for putting out a Grimdarius mini instead of "another xenos mini"

Classic Marine player response.

The 'usual suspects' are any players that aren't using Marines, then?

Marines don't need any new units given the release we're currently in the middle of , but no doubt they'll get at least new characters. GW can't keep their hands off their poster boys for too long.

Meanwhile you believe that craft world players should be happy with 30 year old miniatures that look like dog vomit because they're getting one unit and one special character updated. Unbelievable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Pessimistic? Sure.
There's been more posts about mehreen supplements than the "Biggest thing yet" aka, psychic awakening.

And frankly it's a damned shame.

This is also my take. Add that nothing changed from the last 'lore shattering event' in Vigilus and its not hard to see why such pessimism exists.

Can you blame them? No one buys Orks or Necrons or Harlequins. The rules for said armies aren't very good. People want power armor, they want to feel like master chief. Why is that such a bad thing?

Because everyone playing marine is boring as hell, and not everyone has a power armor fetish.
The rules aren't good you say? Then make better rules. Its that easy. Just because GW doesn't know how to design for xenos armies, doesn't mean no one does.

Yes, but you can't dictate how the community has fun. Some things are popular, so popular that they're going to soak up 90% of the interest and attention. Necrons are a perfect example of an army with a cool aesthetic, but extremely bland execution. Their characters especially are horrendously dull, un-inspired. If the company doesn't think an investment is going to return, they're likely to not focus on it so much. I'm pretty sure the only reason SoB, Chaos and Eldar are getting updated is because they have been the three most consistently asked for things since the company started asking its customers what they want.

 Vankraken wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Because everyone playing marine is boring as hell, and not everyone has a power armor fetish.
The rules aren't good you say? Then make better rules. Its that easy. Just because GW doesn't know how to design for xenos armies, doesn't mean no one does.

Agreed but its hard to get others to play using your ruleset, especially in a pick up game environment.

I mean in general. Like, GW should find someone from the community who knows xenos, because right now it feels like they have a bunch of marine fans designing xenos for everyone else.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
This post is IMHO evidance that the useal suspects are prepared to whine over PA. claiming "faction X didn't get eneugh" I mean let's assume PA is designed to operate over a year, and the stuff previewed is it. 4 new kits, 1 "unit kit" and 1 character kit. for elder and dark eldar each, assuming GW does this for every faction in the game in a years time that's a giant release. with 22 armies in the game. that's 44 new units. that kinda release would be massive indeed. but you know damn well we'd get complaints from the useal suspects about not getting eneugh, with harping about how aweful GW was for putting out a Grimdarius mini instead of "another xenos mini"

Classic Marine player response.

The 'usual suspects' are any players that aren't using Marines, then?

Marines don't need any new units given the release we're currently in the middle of , but no doubt they'll get at least new characters. GW can't keep their hands off their poster boys for too long.

Meanwhile you believe that craft world players should be happy with 30 year old miniatures that look like dog vomit because they're getting one unit and one special character updated. Unbelievable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Pessimistic? Sure.
There's been more posts about mehreen supplements than the "Biggest thing yet" aka, psychic awakening.

And frankly it's a damned shame.

This is also my take. Add that nothing changed from the last 'lore shattering event' in Vigilus and its not hard to see why such pessimism exists.

Can you blame them? No one buys Orks or Necrons or Harlequins. The rules for said armies aren't very good. People want power armor, they want to feel like master chief. Why is that such a bad thing?

Because everyone playing marine is boring as hell, and not everyone has a power armor fetish.
The rules aren't good you say? Then make better rules. Its that easy. Just because GW doesn't know how to design for xenos armies, doesn't mean no one does.

Lol I'm 75% sure that Togusa was being sarcastic gents.

He knows that Orks, Harlies and Necrons sell.

He's playing Devil's Advocate I believe. And well.

Or he's super down because I think he plays 2 of the armies he's mentioned.

E - he's

Orks are something like the 6th most played faction in the ITC. Necrons are played too, despite an incredibly bland rule set.

Karol wrote:

ccs 780940 10588142 wrote:
Am not sure what deluded means, because all the translation I could find were insulting. If that is the case, then yeah awesome dude.

deluded.
.[dəˈlo͞odəd]
ADJECTIVE
.believing something that is not true.

Karol wrote:
Your making fun of a 15 year old,

No, I'm not. You believe things that simply aren't true. In your case it's because of a combination of your age, lack of experience, & your toxic play environment.

Karol wrote:
that invested 2 years of his money in to an army that doesn't work. Ah and the change the rules with other thing doesn't work. First because people aren't interested in house rules, specially if they don't help them and second because the idea is laughable. Imagine BMW selling a car that has to be pushed or pulled to be "driven" and their response being, that their car is just a frame work for people to fix and build a real car, and that the real enjoyment comes from building your own stuff your own way, and not getting a working car.

Grey Knights do in-fact work. Granted, not as well as other armies, and not how/as well as YOU want them to, but....
Your problem looks to be at least 3 fold.
1) You seem stuck on awesome fluff vs actual rules. Whatever the army they'll ALWAYS be awesome in the stories about them. Roll your eyes at it & learn to take the fluff with a few grains of salt.
2) Your specific selection of units/models, your lack of funds to improve on it, & your resistance to the idea of using non-GFK stuff.
3) Your toxic competitive only play environment.
If you can change these factors you'll have better games.

House ruling things might not work in your play environment. I assure you that's not the case in many many many places/groups. You want proof? Look no further than the tourney formats our fellow Dakkanaughts worship. But on the smaller scale? Within a circle of friends? It's not laughable at all. You discuss things & yeah, sometimes you have to also change something for other people.

You're analogies of cars etc? Don't apply to what you're discussing.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
This post is IMHO evidance that the useal suspects are prepared to whine over PA. claiming "faction X didn't get eneugh" I mean let's assume PA is designed to operate over a year, and the stuff previewed is it. 4 new kits, 1 "unit kit" and 1 character kit. for elder and dark eldar each, assuming GW does this for every faction in the game in a years time that's a giant release. with 22 armies in the game. that's 44 new units. that kinda release would be massive indeed. but you know damn well we'd get complaints from the useal suspects about not getting eneugh, with harping about how aweful GW was for putting out a Grimdarius mini instead of "another xenos mini"

Classic Marine player response.

The 'usual suspects' are any players that aren't using Marines, then?

Marines don't need any new units given the release we're currently in the middle of , but no doubt they'll get at least new characters. GW can't keep their hands off their poster boys for too long.

Meanwhile you believe that craft world players should be happy with 30 year old miniatures that look like dog vomit because they're getting one unit and one special character updated. Unbelievable.


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 Eonfuzz wrote:
Pessimistic? Sure.
There's been more posts about mehreen supplements than the "Biggest thing yet" aka, psychic awakening.

And frankly it's a damned shame.

This is also my take. Add that nothing changed from the last 'lore shattering event' in Vigilus and its not hard to see why such pessimism exists.

Can you blame them? No one buys Orks or Necrons or Harlequins. The rules for said armies aren't very good. People want power armor, they want to feel like master chief. Why is that such a bad thing?

Because everyone playing marine is boring as hell, and not everyone has a power armor fetish.
The rules aren't good you say? Then make better rules. Its that easy. Just because GW doesn't know how to design for xenos armies, doesn't mean no one does.

Lol I'm 75% sure that Togusa was being sarcastic gents.

He knows that Orks, Harlies and Necrons sell.

He's playing Devil's Advocate I believe. And well.

Or he's super down because I think he plays 2 of the armies he's mentioned.

E - he's

Orks are something like the 6th most played faction in the ITC. Necrons are played too, despite an incredibly bland rule set.

Sort of. I'm not sure they sell as well as most of you think when compared to marine factions. Case in point, my local store is now sitting at nearly 80% of its player base using marines of some flavor. From what I've been told by friends in other cities, they're seeing the same thing.

I moved on from 40K to other games, but when I played I just used the armies I liked at the time. I dunno, I'd be really interested to see a breakdown of individual faction sales from GW.

Yes. This is the true downside, but I'm not sure what can be done. Something is always going to be the top and something the bottom. Are you familiar with the debacle that happened during the last big Steam sale?

A more balanced release schedule not based upon waves.
No seriously if everyone gets something be it update etc many more would be happy.
And we would not have had legal age eldar Banshees and abbadon the armless.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yes. This is the true downside, but I'm not sure what can be done. Something is always going to be the top and something the bottom. Are you familiar with the debacle that happened during the last big Steam sale?

A more balanced release schedule not based upon waves.
No seriously if everyone gets something be it update etc many more would be happy.
And we would not have had legal age eldar Banshees and abbadon the armless.

That would be nice, but if those models were thought not to sell, then the company isn't going to waste resource on them.

Im of the opinion that if it exists it will sell...

I predict it will be successful.

PA will end with the end of 40k and the begining of a new game that will be similar in its place called Age of the Emperor. The Emporer will die and be reborn, the details of which will end with the devestation of old Marines, the death and rebirth of the eldar race, the full awakening of the necrontyr, a series of waaaghs so big that gork and mork stop fighting and turn their gaze onto the orks when the first Prime Ork returns (Ghaz), Tau enlightenment, Tyranids main fleets arriving, etc. All storylines will advance to a phase where GW can create new lines of models for major factions- not just new models within the faction line. The end result will be similar to AoS in events, and in scope of model replacement for factions- allowing GW to further their model lines to be more obviously GW specific. (In effect invalidating 3rs party sculpts)

blaktoof wrote:
I predict it will be successful.

PA will end with the end of 40k and the begining of a new game that will be similar in its place called Age of the Emperor. The Emporer will die and be reborn, the details of which will end with the devestation of old Marines, the death and rebirth of the eldar race, the full awakening of the necrontyr, a series of waaaghs so big that gork and mork stop fighting and turn their gaze onto the orks when the first Prime Ork returns (Ghaz), Tau enlightenment, Tyranids main fleets arriving, etc. All storylines will advance to a phase where GW can create new lines of models for major factions- not just new models within the faction line. The end result will be similar to AoS in events, and in scope of model replacement for factions- allowing GW to further their model lines to be more obviously GW specific. (In effect invalidating 3rs party sculpts)

I seriously hope your wrong as that would be probably the most anti consumer path GW could take. That being said it wouldn't surprise me if it happens (it basically happened with AoS, why not skin the 40k sheep as well).

Successful or not, GW will not need the books to succeed. They just need the models to sell.

GW is a model company first and foremost... rules are secondary to their success. As long as the models sell, the success or failure of the books is immaterial.

blaktoof wrote:
I predict it will be successful.

PA will end with the end of 40k and the begining of a new game that will be similar in its place called Age of the Emperor. The Emporer will die and be reborn, the details of which will end with the devestation of old Marines, the death and rebirth of the eldar race, the full awakening of the necrontyr, a series of waaaghs so big that gork and mork stop fighting and turn their gaze onto the orks when the first Prime Ork returns (Ghaz), Tau enlightenment, Tyranids main fleets arriving, etc. All storylines will advance to a phase where GW can create new lines of models for major factions- not just new models within the faction line. The end result will be similar to AoS in events, and in scope of model replacement for factions- allowing GW to further their model lines to be more obviously GW specific. (In effect invalidating 3rs party sculpts)

And they will change from round to square bases..

blaktoof wrote:
I predict it will be successful.

PA will end with the end of 40k and the begining of a new game that will be similar in its place called Age of the Emperor. The Emporer will die and be reborn, the details of which will end with the devestation of old Marines, the death and rebirth of the eldar race, the full awakening of the necrontyr, a series of waaaghs so big that gork and mork stop fighting and turn their gaze onto the orks when the first Prime Ork returns (Ghaz), Tau enlightenment, Tyranids main fleets arriving, etc. All storylines will advance to a phase where GW can create new lines of models for major factions- not just new models within the faction line. The end result will be similar to AoS in events, and in scope of model replacement for factions- allowing GW to further their model lines to be more obviously GW specific. (In effect invalidating 3rs party sculpts)

And when 7th was ending, AoS was out and 8th was looming, people said the same kinda stuff. Unsurprisingly, it didn't happen. Even with the major cataclysm and time skip.
WFB and 40k are different animals and 40k is in a very different state. You don't gamble your cash cow the way you gamble an old bull who can't produce anymore.

Having things awaken, rebirth, and arrive and blah, blah, blah doesn't actually change any games, 'main strengths' or whatever. The game is still two similar sized armies going at each other because that's what players have, not because of random fluff changes.

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And it's also worth pointing out the AoS still hasn't (and may never) make the transition you're talking about. New model lines are fairly rare (and Sigmarines aside, rather small) and model replacement isn't really a thing at all, barring the odd rock troll. Many armies (Skaven, Llizards) got nothing at all, others adapted recent or older kits (Sylvaneth models are rooted in the last wood elf book, with the dryads going back even further). New armies are maybe a handful of kits, except BloodBlooders and Sigmarines.

 Seawolf wrote:
Successful or not, GW will not need the books to succeed. They just need the models to sell.

GW is a model company first and foremost... rules are secondary to their success. As long as the models sell, the success or failure of the books is immaterial.

You say that, and yet they sure are coming out with a LOT of books...

Chaos Knights had a handful of rules and 1 new model (go convert the rest).
Vigilus had 2 books with tons of rules in them. The first book had only 2 models, the second introduced Shadowspear kind of?
Now we're getting Psychic Awakening and we know the first book will have 4 kits. Two troops and two characters. Doesn't seem like a huge release.
Then you've got 6 space marine supplements, each one also with two kits: a character and an upgrade pack. The book seems the more significant part, since it's got all those gosh darn rules that everyone's talking about.
Not counting the White Dwarf magazines that have all those rules in them for almost every game they make...
Oh, and they're reprinting both the AoS and 40k rulebooks in a smaller format with just the rules...

I'm starting to wonder if GW wants to be the next Barnes and Nobles. Selling lots of books and then some toys in the center of the store...