Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Legacy is whfb models but for aos. Aos is the only thing that currently exists.

 auticus wrote:
Legacy is whfb models but for aos. Aos is the only thing that currently exists.

Kind of assumed, wouldn't do to have a superior system compete with one of your twin flagship games, now would it?

 auticus wrote:
You absolutely cannot reconcile whfb with aos. They are two very different things catering to two very different personalities and interests.

Oh. I didn't get that memo. I must be doing it wrong. :(
Because, even though I only have 1 personality, I do enjoy WHFB 3rd-8th editions (yes, some editions more than others, but still....) AND AoS v2.
In addition, being able to enjoy AoS will hopefully lead to increased enjoyment of WFB in the next year. See myself & another vet have a plan.... We'll get people enjoying AoS & then invite some of them to join us for a game of actual WFB.

 auticus wrote:
If youre an aos fan the last thing you want is gw trying for both.

Hmm. Didn't get that one either. Though it doesn't really matter as I already know GWs only going to support one style at any given moment. And right now that moment is AoS.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
The Lore / background.
The origin story of the Skaven is still one of the great pieces ever written by GW.

True, but you did remind me of the "Skaven are an urban myth!*" thing that got bought in later, which was far dafter than anything AoS has ever introduced.


* Never mind those hundreds of rat-man corpses lying around after that last battle, or the accounts from hundreds of our soldiers about fighting rat-men, or the fact that our scholars unquestioningly accept the presence of goat-men, bull-men and intelligent lizard people who live on the other side of the world.....

Wasn't that because its a political thing? I mean, can you imagine the wide spread panic that would engulf the Empire if word got out that there could be colonies of rat-people living underneath you? The Scholars probably know that there are Skaven, they just aren't allowed to reveal that information to the public.
As odd as it may sound, it wouldn't be that hard to cover up Skaven battles. Just say they are a type of beastman. Your average Imperial soldier isn't going to know the difference, and if he gets too inquisitive...well, that's what Witch Hunters are for.
Are Lizardmen even that common knowledge? And if they are, would it really matter? I mean, Lizardmen live on another continent, and beast men are only really a problem if you live out in the woods, iirc.
That's probably the angle GW was going for. For what its worth, Bretonnians did not deny the existence of Skaven and actively crusade against them.

I'm pretty sure this was addressed in Skavenslayer (although it's been many, many years since I've read it) and yes, the Empire was covering up the existence of the Skaven because they live UNDERNEATH their houses and there's no way to exterminate them. The only thing that kept the Skaven from rising up and invading the Empire was their absolute inability to organize any campaign more complex than backstabbing each other.

 Just Tony wrote:

auticus wrote:You absolutely cannot reconcile whfb with aos. They are two very different things catering to two very different personalities and interests.

If youre an aos fan the last thing you want is gw trying for both.

I agree, for the most part. However, it's no different than players who were playing WFB and 40K at the same time. Given the rounds and all the mass shooting casualty shenanigans, I'd say it's an even MORE apropos comparison. Some people double dipped. Not all, but some. In my mind a Legacy WFB system would facilitate that and possibly bring back some people who ragequit GW completely. I'm also pathetically optimistic at most times, so what do I know?

As long as it's basically a "fixed" version of 6th and not 8th, for me personally.

I have really considered this lately. If a "resurrection" of WHFB is possible and if it could exist alongside AoS. Since people are enjoying Aos I am not hoping that Aos will disappear in favor of WHFB but I believe that since they are so different they would appeal to different crowds and that they could both work as separate game system. 40k and WHFB did for a long time and Battle for middle earth is still selling. Do you think it would both be possible and financially beneficial for GW to reintroduce WHFB as a seperate game system alongside 40k and Aos?

The number of people that really enjoy both core foundations of whfb and aos is very small. Typically anytime a discussion is had on whfb elements, it gets followed by a string of nasty comments from people that hate it (edit; in an aos forum)

The same is true in a whfb style forum when someone talks about aos.

While there will always be outliers and the random dude popping in to say he loves both, i have not found that to be even uncommon. Its rare.

Aos fans would and should rage if gw decided to support both styles because it would take the #1 reason why so many play gw games despite rules quality being dubious: the community. Your investment is safe because you know the community is the largest.

Gw introducing whfb back into the mix would fracture that community and endanger your investment.

The two cannot financially live side by side IMO. Gw’s other fantasy offering is middle earth...which barely even registers as being alive in most places despite local champions’ best efforts. And it has what many argue to be the most solid of gw’s rulesets. But it still mostly tanks because few but the most rabid fan boy of tolkien wants to risk investing $500-800 and then only have one or two people to play.

The non aos fantasy gaming community right now already knows all about the fractured tiny pocket groups as it is. Its what keeps a lot of folks from investing in other systems even if the rules would be more to their liking.

Additionally gw cant copyright generic fantasy tropes and the playerbase was heavily buying cheap third party or taking advantage of a deep glut of second hand product on the cheap. All if which is strongly acknowledged as the force behind slaughtering whfb and replacing it with its masters of the universe replacement.

I think the idea of Fantasy being reintroduced is much better than LoTR. If they just put square bases into AoS then you've got most of your models there.

I don't see how Fantasy fractures the community either. My experience has been that AoS and Fantasy have pretty different communities because they're different worlds and game systems. By sharing models they have most of their investment in a shared thing too.

Because most people that like rank and flank are repelled by the ultra gamey aspects of aos and the people that like uktra gamey aspects in their games are repelled by maneuver and position and the like because thats boring.

I would love if gw brought back a proper maneuver based game not based on ccg mechanics and had restrictions on lists. But i also know my fragile fantasy community would rupture into much smaller pocket groups which few people want to happen.

I don't really see why two games for two different groups causes a rupture in anything.

Because people generally dont want to put focus on multiple games. It causes a divide. People have to pick and choose. Thats the nature ive observed anyway.

But if both sets of people generally like only 1 of 2 games then they aren't putting focus on two games. They're putting the same focus into one game but the difference is another group gets to play their own game that's only slightly linked. Everyone wins.

The people are going to gravitate to the larger playgroup. Whatever that is.

Some areas that will be whfb. Some it will be aos. Either way there will be a lot of frustration.

But thats all moot because itll never happen.

 auticus wrote:

Additionally gw cant copyright generic fantasy tropes and the playerbase was heavily buying cheap third party or taking advantage of a deep glut of second hand product on the cheap. All if which is strongly acknowledged as the force behind slaughtering whfb and replacing it with its masters of the universe replacement.

There is nothing stopping 3rd party companies mimicking the AoS aesthetic. 3rd party artists can make bigger skeletons, bigger orc boars, bigger armored knights, elves with fish, dwarves with airships, and naked dwarves with mohawks.

They could sure. But it would have to be a concentrated effort to ape gw’s masters of the universe aesthetic and also obvious.

Whereas generic skeletons, dwRves, and knights are pretty much public domain.

 auticus wrote:
The people are going to gravitate to the larger playgroup. Whatever that is.

Some areas that will be whfb. Some it will be aos. Either way there will be a lot of frustration.

But thats all moot because itll never happen.

But you said yourself people like one or the other most of the time. AoS being more popular in an area isn't magically making it fun for someone. There's less frustration in that scenario than we have now because if you want to keep playing Fantasy you have a chance rather than the giant finger GW gives at present.

That is true. But gamers being the peculiar lot that they are also seem to crave solidarity.

In the kings of war and classichammer and even the local group here, a reoccurring lament is how the community overall is so fractured into tiny groups whereas in the past it was basically warhammer, 40k, and the side group of warmachine.

Our aos group locally has guys that claim to want rank and flank back but wont move to play kings of war, conquest, classic whfb, or 9th age because the aos group is bigger and thats a lot of peoples’ #1 priority.

Even though if half would play kings of war theyd have ten to twelve players. The conquest community im trying to build - same issues.

We have 9 conquest players now with about 8 on the fence, and the new aos box removed three of them from conquest simply because they feel money spent on aos is a safer investment due to community size even if they dont like the rules as much.

Why not both? Logical question. Investing in more than one game takes more money, time, and getting another system down well to play. Thats more than most want to invest.

I don't know, if you share models that's a lot of money and time saved and I've never been convinced GW spend much time getting systems ready to play.

People wanting to feel safe in their investment and drifting towards the bigger community makes sense. If the reintroduction of WHFB would lead to another split in the community the safest option might be to introduce a rank system to both games. Not replacing AoS rules but make an expansion like lotr had war of the ring back in the day.Then everything could be on round bases and be used in both systems.

The problem there is that for GW, introducing such a rank and file rule system for AoS would probably make it less interested in reinvesting in WHFB. WHFBs main draw would be the lore and possibly some factions if now sharing rules with a Aos War of the ring expansion. And in Aos GW can just create a new faction that is more trade marketable then anything in the old world.

So a WHFB resurrection does seem unlikely with it either not being needed (War of the ring expansion system for Aos to appease fans wanting a rank and file system). Or it will bring to much risk in dividing the fans between Aos and WHFB if earlier idea is true (people drifting towards the bigger fantasy community making one of the systems less profitable and making people less willing to invest in it).

But I will hope. Aos is interesting and has some awesome sculpts but I miss to much stuff from the old world that has changed or been discontinued to fully start an army. If WHFB would return I would probably invest a lot more in GW products then I do now.

I'm just not really a fan of Warhammer: planescape.

Everything somewhat meaningless and samey.

Having many armies be effectively daemons (Lizardman are, sigmarines are, etc) but unchanged is just weird.

Some of the new factions are cool - I do like the karadron.

But It's clear GW wanted to create a 40k scale fantasy game and they decided colliding magical planes was the way to do it

Even planescape had a centralized hub in the form of Sigil that connects everything and serves as the ground zero for various important events and stories, though.

Everything in AoS just looks likes its floating around aimlessly, and it doesn't work for me.

AoS really needs a Sigil like world that's supposed to be the main battleground for all of these conflicts.
The story could be that its a world that not only connects all worlds, but as all of the winds of magic converge and cancel each other out, its also a suitable and stable realm for colonization, and that makes it an ideal target for conquest, be it for strategic purposes, as one could use that world to survey other realms and as a staging ground for invasions, or just as a place to live.

Sigmarines and Nagash would want it for the former, Free Cities would want it as as the latter. You can even have a sub-plot about remnants of the Empire or Tomb Kings wanting to rebuild their civilization on this world, and aggressively attacking anyone else who tries to set up camp on it.

 auticus wrote:
That is true. But gamers being the peculiar lot that they are also seem to crave solidarity.

In the kings of war and classichammer and even the local group here, a reoccurring lament is how the community overall is so fractured into tiny groups whereas in the past it was basically warhammer, 40k, and the side group of warmachine.

Our aos group locally has guys that claim to want rank and flank back but wont move to play kings of war, conquest, classic whfb, or 9th age because the aos group is bigger and thats a lot of peoples’ #1 priority.

Even though if half would play kings of war theyd have ten to twelve players. The conquest community im trying to build - same issues.

We have 9 conquest players now with about 8 on the fence, and the new aos box removed three of them from conquest simply because they feel money spent on aos is a safer investment due to community size even if they dont like the rules as much.

Why not both? Logical question. Investing in more than one game takes more money, time, and getting another system down well to play. Thats more than most want to invest.

TBF if for solidarity sake i'd have to learn a new system i wouldn't be opposed. Money otoh is a whole other issue though and i think it's the main issue. GW games are basically a guaranteed return for investment.

GW did introduce important locations way back in the Seeds of Hope world campaign, and before that with Eightpoints and its associated gates.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
AoS really needs a Sigil like world that's supposed to be the main battleground for all of these conflicts.
Sigmarines and Nagash would want it for the former, Free Cities would want it as as the latter. You can even have a sub-plot about remnants of the Empire or Tomb Kings wanting to rebuild their civilization on this world, and aggressively attacking anyone else who tries to set up camp on it.

That's what the All Points/Varanspire is. It was previously controlled by Sigmar. Now Archaon holds it.

So then why isn't it the primary focus? If its that important, shouldn't the primary plot behind the game be controlling this area?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So then why isn't it the primary focus? If its that important, shouldn't the primary plot behind the game be controlling this area?

It is, and has been since the very beginning, hence “The Realmgate Wars”.

What parts of the plot have you read?

 nels1031 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So then why isn't it the primary focus? If its that important, shouldn't the primary plot behind the game be controlling this area?

It is, and has been since the very beginning, hence “The Realmgate Wars”.

Aren't those over though? It seems to me that they aren't fighting over the realmgates anymore and just sort of slugging it out on various worlds, and the war was primarily fought by Stormcast and Chaos anyway.
I was hoping for more of like a free for all brawl, where you have all of these factions on this hub world just slugging it out.

 nels1031 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So then why isn't it the primary focus? If its that important, shouldn't the primary plot behind the game be controlling this area?

It is, and has been since the very beginning, hence “The Realmgate Wars”.

Why is the goal to take all gates rather than go realm by realm? Why can't they seal or destroy realmgates and fix important ones later? What do they actually live on?

I'd like answers to all of those. Especially the last one.

Test
Edit: Wasn’t able to view replies for a while there.

pm713 wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So then why isn't it the primary focus? If its that important, shouldn't the primary plot behind the game be controlling this area?

It is, and has been since the very beginning, hence “The Realmgate Wars”.

Why is the goal to take all gates rather than go realm by realm? Why can't they seal or destroy realmgates and fix important ones later? What do they actually live on?

I'd like answers to all of those. Especially the last one.

Because it's the hub. You control those, you have instant access to all the realms at all times. Going realm by realm would be nearly impossible due to their size and trying to locate the gates. Especially considering they're not necessarily just portals but can actually be living things. What do you mean what do they live on?