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2019/10/10 21:14:26
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
Although, to be fair, the Torygraph is little more than thinly-veiled agitprop.
There are contemporaneous accounts in other media, as well as several other first hand accounts of action available from far more reliable outlets. The MoD statements are also available with a few moments googling.
So you are saying that Shas'O Me'el Wau'Nera here in the spoiler would have fared much better with a bayonet on his pulse blaster?
Spoiler:
Is it wrong that I find that image funny?
Its as if the Reiver is saying to the Tau "NO! Bad Tau! No gun for you!"
No, that image is quite funny. Although I imagine the Reiver slowly walking up as the Fire Warrior is shooting him and just moving the gun aside as an annoyance. Maybe just uttering "Stop it, that's enough!"
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2019/10/11 00:22:03
Subject: Re:Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
I'm just going to note yes Bayonets aren't used often, although they are still trained (and the military does train soldiers in techniques that likely won't have an application on the modern battlefield, every sailor is trained to sail a sailing ship, for example somethings are just taught out of tradtion)
but here's the thing.. Bayonets are used a HELL of a lot more then SWORDS ARE. In the military an officer will still have a sword as part of his dress uniform, but they don't carry them into battle.
But, we have tons of sword equipped guys in 40k. Bayonets are a lot more realistic then guys with jet packs jumping around into eneimies with a pistol and sword.
(Supressors are proably how a real military would employ jet pack troops. highly mobile fire teams providing pin point fire support where needed)
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/10/11 01:04:20
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
How much leverage would a marine have swinging a foot long combat blade off the end of a bolter? A bolter is shaped like a shoebox, imagine swinging a knife duct taped to the end of a box. Now picture a genetically modified power armor equipped marine stabbing down on something with a handheld blade, I have to imagine he'd get more leverage going in by hand and taking advantage of his body weight. Also the bolter isn't long enough to really spear something is it?
Asking for a friend...
2019/10/11 01:28:36
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
Am I the only person a little perplexed by people trying to apply specifically last-few-decades 21st century military protocol and logic to 40k? Like, even more specifically to the limited number combat zones that conflicts have been fought in on literally one planet?
Like, to give a recent example, remember how every general for YEARS in ww1 just couldn't conceive of a way to get over trench warfare? Like, none of their contemporary strategies had any way of countering 'man hiding in hole with machine gun and artillery support'. 40k, beyond being both fictional, and deliberately very silly, is set 38 millenia ahead of us. Military strategy today will be outpaced by something inevitably.
'oooh, a little knife makes my M16 too heavy' is utterly irrelevant.
In 40k, all kinds of things have altered how combat works. People have personal sheild generators, psyker sheilding, forcefeilds and magic immunity because the emperor wills it so. People use hammers and stuff to kill each other because it's more effective than puny projectile weapons. In the vast, roiling insanity of combat, I'm sure there've been countless instances where a space marine has needed to use a bayonet. And additionally, that heresy armor deathguard with a bayonet looks cool as all hell, and thus is 100% justified.
2019/10/11 03:41:59
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
posermcbogus wrote: Am I the only person a little perplexed by people trying to apply specifically last-few-decades 21st century military protocol and logic to 40k?
No. You're 100% right. Most of this thread is completely off topic and needs a major cleanup. Aren't there actual historical warfare forums to discuss stuff like this?
People have personal sheild generators, psyker sheilding, forcefeilds and magic immunity because the emperor wills it so. People use hammers and stuff to kill each other because it's more effective than puny projectile weapons. In the vast, roiling insanity of combat, I'm sure there've been countless instances where a space marine has needed to use a bayonet. And additionally, that heresy armor deathguard with a bayonet looks cool as all hell, and thus is 100% justified.
/thread
2019/10/11 03:50:42
Subject: Re:Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
While I try to model each of my marines having some kind of knife since it's a universally useful tool that everyone should carry, I'd assume that your average marine doesn't need one to be deadly.
They are super strong, can spit acid and probably club anything short of a larger ork to death with their bolter. A knife on the end of said weapon probably won't make much of difference.
2019/10/11 04:42:45
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
It's reasonable for the guard to have bayonets. I mean they do like them trenches and lines of bodies so it's basically a spear wall. Outrange that Ork Choppa by a little bit but still die under the mass of the green tide or acid from a pierced guant. Space Marines however are deployed in small squads and aren't going to be forming a battle line. The compact nature of a bolter isn't the most suitable platform for a bayonet either. Although now that I think about it a axe head on the end of a storm bolter would look cool, unwieldy as hell but cool.
2019/10/11 05:40:42
Subject: Re:Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
I just want to make a point about bayonetts on miniatures: They break easily. I glued a bayonett fixed knife to one of my 100ish marines and I still regret it. He is my single most repaired miniature. The nightmare of having that issue with all of them would be too much...
So I'm glad it's not standard for 40k marines. Also I used to own cadians and those bayonetts would break alot, good riddance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/11 05:41:17
Brutal, but kunning!
2019/10/11 06:03:49
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
Not Online!!! wrote: From Personal experimenting in rs, it depends, the stgw 90gets noticably more barrel heavy. F.e
And that feths atleast for me, my accuracy on the range.
Granted i am just what is a rifleman equivalent but it is noticable.
So no, bayonettes don't make a weapon less accurate. The firer may have a harder time hitting if they're not used to the bayonette, though.
I also found some references to some competitors add additional weight to their weapons to improve stability, but that didn't seem authoritative or widely-accepted.
Ehh disagree, the issue is it depends on the gun and what the combat range is.
F.e. A füsel (my job, also the fodder job of the army ) is to fight at a range around 300 m
That is a range where the Bajonett becomes a detriment over long or short period.
That beeing said the gun also has an influence on this, the stgw is normally well balanced, however it becomes barrel heavy with an attached Bajonett. Not to mention that the barrell is a relative vulnerable part so I'd never use a Bajonett on my stgw 90 attached due to fear of getting a banana
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gitdakka wrote: I just want to make a point about bayonetts on miniatures: They break easily. I glued a bayonett fixed knife to one of my 100ish marines and I still regret it. He is my single most repaired miniature. The nightmare of having that issue with all of them would be too much...
So I'm glad it's not standard for 40k marines. Also I used to own cadians and those bayonetts would break alot, good riddance.
Shudders in Cadian Bajonett.
Funny enough the marine ones atleast on pm are sturdy as hell
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/11 07:22:58
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/10/11 09:45:30
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
I'm just puzzled that the models were not designed for their combat knife (which several kits come with) to be glued to the end of the Bolter as a bayonet. Even Intercessors have that little loop thing right under the muzzle just forward of the gripe. Looks like an intentional place to but a bayonet.
While I get that regular bolters don't quite look long enough for the traditional bayonet mounting, a Bolt Rifle is, well a RIFLE. So I think they would look great with bayonets. Gonna give mine some.
-
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/11 14:08:24
Galef wrote: I'm just puzzled that the models were not designed for their combat knife (which several kits come with) to be glued to the end of the Bolter as a bayonet.
Even Intercessors have that little loop thing right under the muzzle just forward of the gripe. Looks like an intentional place to but a bayonet.
While I get that regular bolters don't quite look long enough for the traditional bayonet mounting, a Bolt Rifle is, well a RIFLE. So I think they would look great with bayonets. Gonna give mine some.
-
All comes down to sprue space. There's a lot happening in the intercessor kit, and I completely understand prioritizing the things they did over a cosmetic bit.
2019/10/11 14:16:42
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
Galef wrote: I'm just puzzled that the models were not designed for their combat knife (which several kits come with) to be glued to the end of the Bolter as a bayonet.
Even Intercessors have that little loop thing right under the muzzle just forward of the gripe. Looks like an intentional place to but a bayonet.
While I get that regular bolters don't quite look long enough for the traditional bayonet mounting, a Bolt Rifle is, well a RIFLE. So I think they would look great with bayonets. Gonna give mine some.
-
All comes down to sprue space. There's a lot happening in the intercessor kit, and I completely understand prioritizing the things they did over a cosmetic bit.
Well, I'm more talking about the Tactical Marine and older Chaos Marine kits, which DID come with knives, but didn't seem to be well designed to be glued to the bolter. You could do it, but there's a bit of chopping involved (which to be fair, was standard practice just to get the bolters into the hands of the Marines as the handles were modeled on)
Are you guys serious? 260 feet of open ground? Against accurate fire?
Soldier runs up a building with grenade but decides not to use it and then realizes the enemies inside ran away...Man...those friggin bayonets dude. So scary. Lets just ignore the fact they took out the previous position with a rocket. This is what we call click bait gentleman. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even actually have bayonets. This is propaganda.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also use your brain...what is easier to control and 8 lb rifle? or a 10 lb rifle? That is where the loss of accuracy comes from.
Maybe someone who knows more about actual firearms can comment, but in my experience with paintball guns (limited) more weight meant more accuracy (from stability) not less. If it was so much weight you couldn't operate it effectively, that'd be different - but that's not the weight level we're talking about.
So does anyone have a good source on weight's impact on accuracy for firearms?
I know a ton about firearms - I have quite an arsenal and I shoot a lot. Don't be foolish. This bayonet debate is already over. Anyone claiming that adding additional weight to your rifle to add a useless knife on the end of it just has some real bad ideas about warfare and how it works.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/10/11 14:33:05
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
Are you guys serious? 260 feet of open ground? Against accurate fire?
Soldier runs up a building with grenade but decides not to use it and then realizes the enemies inside ran away...Man...those friggin bayonets dude. So scary. Lets just ignore the fact they took out the previous position with a rocket. This is what we call click bait gentleman. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even actually have bayonets. This is propaganda.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also use your brain...what is easier to control and 8 lb rifle? or a 10 lb rifle? That is where the loss of accuracy comes from.
Maybe someone who knows more about actual firearms can comment, but in my experience with paintball guns (limited) more weight meant more accuracy (from stability) not less. If it was so much weight you couldn't operate it effectively, that'd be different - but that's not the weight level we're talking about.
So does anyone have a good source on weight's impact on accuracy for firearms?
I know a ton about firearms - I have quite an arsenal and I shoot a lot. Don't be foolish. This bayonet debate is already over. Anyone claiming that adding additional weight to your rifle to add a useless knife on the end of it just has some real bad ideas about warfare and how it works.
I'm going to have to trust Wikipedia, USMC, Quora, Reddit, current and former military members, competitive shooters, and more over someone who apparently owns a lot of guns. I own a lot of Warhammer paints, but that doesn't mean I have any skill or knowhow about painting models.
2019/10/11 14:33:28
Subject: Re:Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
BrianDavion wrote: I'm just going to note yes Bayonets aren't used often, although they are still trained (and the military does train soldiers in techniques that likely won't have an application on the modern battlefield, every sailor is trained to sail a sailing ship, for example somethings are just taught out of tradtion)
but here's the thing.. Bayonets are used a HELL of a lot more then SWORDS ARE. In the military an officer will still have a sword as part of his dress uniform, but they don't carry them into battle.
But, we have tons of sword equipped guys in 40k. Bayonets are a lot more realistic then guys with jet packs jumping around into eneimies with a pistol and sword.
(Supressors are proably how a real military would employ jet pack troops. highly mobile fire teams providing pin point fire support where needed)
More than a combat blade? I highly doubt it. A hand held blade has a real application of being able to take down an enemy silently without expenditure of ammunition. I am certain knives are used a lot more than bayonets.
Although, to be fair, the Torygraph is little more than thinly-veiled agitprop.
Read the article - this wasn't a bayonet charge. This was a unit that got ambushed and employed the correct tactics to take away an ambush position (by using a grenade) turns out the dudes inside the building ran away...likely around the same time their other position was destroyed by a rocket.
Are you guys serious? 260 feet of open ground? Against accurate fire?
Soldier runs up a building with grenade but decides not to use it and then realizes the enemies inside ran away...Man...those friggin bayonets dude. So scary. Lets just ignore the fact they took out the previous position with a rocket. This is what we call click bait gentleman. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even actually have bayonets. This is propaganda.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also use your brain...what is easier to control and 8 lb rifle? or a 10 lb rifle? That is where the loss of accuracy comes from.
Maybe someone who knows more about actual firearms can comment, but in my experience with paintball guns (limited) more weight meant more accuracy (from stability) not less. If it was so much weight you couldn't operate it effectively, that'd be different - but that's not the weight level we're talking about.
So does anyone have a good source on weight's impact on accuracy for firearms?
I know a ton about firearms - I have quite an arsenal and I shoot a lot. Don't be foolish. This bayonet debate is already over. Anyone claiming that adding additional weight to your rifle to add a useless knife on the end of it just has some real bad ideas about warfare and how it works.
I'm going to have to trust Wikipedia, USMC, Quora, Reddit, current and former military members, competitive shooters, and more over someone who apparently owns a lot of guns. I own a lot of Warhammer paints, but that doesn't mean I have any skill or knowhow about painting models.
Yes - literally all those sources will tell you bayonets are a bad idea and aren't even used lol.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/11 14:37:02
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/10/11 14:43:49
Subject: Re:Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
BrianDavion wrote: I'm just going to note yes Bayonets aren't used often, although they are still trained (and the military does train soldiers in techniques that likely won't have an application on the modern battlefield, every sailor is trained to sail a sailing ship, for example somethings are just taught out of tradtion)
but here's the thing.. Bayonets are used a HELL of a lot more then SWORDS ARE. In the military an officer will still have a sword as part of his dress uniform, but they don't carry them into battle.
But, we have tons of sword equipped guys in 40k. Bayonets are a lot more realistic then guys with jet packs jumping around into eneimies with a pistol and sword.
(Supressors are proably how a real military would employ jet pack troops. highly mobile fire teams providing pin point fire support where needed)
More than a combat blade? I highly doubt it. A hand held blade has a real application of being able to take down an enemy silently without expenditure of ammunition. I am certain knives are used a lot more than bayonets.
Although, to be fair, the Torygraph is little more than thinly-veiled agitprop.
Read the article - this wasn't a bayonet charge. This was a unit that got ambushed and employed the correct tactics to take away an ambush position (by using a grenade) turns out the dudes inside the building ran away...likely around the same time their other position was destroyed by a rocket.
Are you guys serious? 260 feet of open ground? Against accurate fire?
Soldier runs up a building with grenade but decides not to use it and then realizes the enemies inside ran away...Man...those friggin bayonets dude. So scary. Lets just ignore the fact they took out the previous position with a rocket. This is what we call click bait gentleman. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even actually have bayonets. This is propaganda.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also use your brain...what is easier to control and 8 lb rifle? or a 10 lb rifle? That is where the loss of accuracy comes from.
Maybe someone who knows more about actual firearms can comment, but in my experience with paintball guns (limited) more weight meant more accuracy (from stability) not less. If it was so much weight you couldn't operate it effectively, that'd be different - but that's not the weight level we're talking about.
So does anyone have a good source on weight's impact on accuracy for firearms?
I know a ton about firearms - I have quite an arsenal and I shoot a lot. Don't be foolish. This bayonet debate is already over. Anyone claiming that adding additional weight to your rifle to add a useless knife on the end of it just has some real bad ideas about warfare and how it works.
I'm going to have to trust Wikipedia, USMC, Quora, Reddit, current and former military members, competitive shooters, and more over someone who apparently owns a lot of guns. I own a lot of Warhammer paints, but that doesn't mean I have any skill or knowhow about painting models.
Yes - literally all those sources will tell you bayonets are a bad idea and aren't even used lol
None of this matters and is quite off the topic that I started. We cannot begin to speculate how giant super humans clad in tank armour firing mini-rocket launchers would be affected but a knife at the end of said launcher.
My original intention for this thread was to ask why anyone thought GW didn't design bayonets on Marine weapons more often. I mean, they put brass knuckles on the powerfist of the new Imperial Fist Primaris character after all.
Are you guys serious? 260 feet of open ground? Against accurate fire?
Soldier runs up a building with grenade but decides not to use it and then realizes the enemies inside ran away...Man...those friggin bayonets dude. So scary. Lets just ignore the fact they took out the previous position with a rocket. This is what we call click bait gentleman. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even actually have bayonets. This is propaganda.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also use your brain...what is easier to control and 8 lb rifle? or a 10 lb rifle? That is where the loss of accuracy comes from.
Maybe someone who knows more about actual firearms can comment, but in my experience with paintball guns (limited) more weight meant more accuracy (from stability) not less. If it was so much weight you couldn't operate it effectively, that'd be different - but that's not the weight level we're talking about.
So does anyone have a good source on weight's impact on accuracy for firearms?
I know a ton about firearms - I have quite an arsenal and I shoot a lot. Don't be foolish. This bayonet debate is already over. Anyone claiming that adding additional weight to your rifle to add a useless knife on the end of it just has some real bad ideas about warfare and how it works.
Well we know who has the bad ideas here...
2019/10/11 14:50:01
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
I always assumed the boltgun itself was so comically bulky because it had been designed as a bludgeon; if your gun is already a melee weapon you don't necessarily need to make it more of a melee weapon. There's also the question of how much attaching a bayonet to the end of something so short actually helps. I know Primaris bolt rifles are longer but even then compare the proportional length of a boltgun to the proportional length of a musket back when bayonets were meaningful weapons of war, it doesn't look like adding a bayonet would actually extend the Marine's reach a whole lot.
Are you guys serious? 260 feet of open ground? Against accurate fire?
Soldier runs up a building with grenade but decides not to use it and then realizes the enemies inside ran away...Man...those friggin bayonets dude. So scary. Lets just ignore the fact they took out the previous position with a rocket. This is what we call click bait gentleman. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even actually have bayonets. This is propaganda.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also use your brain...what is easier to control and 8 lb rifle? or a 10 lb rifle? That is where the loss of accuracy comes from.
Maybe someone who knows more about actual firearms can comment, but in my experience with paintball guns (limited) more weight meant more accuracy (from stability) not less. If it was so much weight you couldn't operate it effectively, that'd be different - but that's not the weight level we're talking about.
So does anyone have a good source on weight's impact on accuracy for firearms?
I know a ton about firearms - I have quite an arsenal and I shoot a lot. Don't be foolish. This bayonet debate is already over. Anyone claiming that adding additional weight to your rifle to add a useless knife on the end of it just has some real bad ideas about warfare and how it works.
I'm going to have to trust Wikipedia, USMC, Quora, Reddit, current and former military members, competitive shooters, and more over someone who apparently owns a lot of guns. I own a lot of Warhammer paints, but that doesn't mean I have any skill or knowhow about painting models.
Yes - literally all those sources will tell you bayonets are a bad idea and aren't even used lol.
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonet "Despite its limitations, many modern assault rifles (including bullpup designs) retain a bayonet lug and the bayonet is still issued by many armies."
USMC: Issues Bayonets
Quora: https://www.quora.com/Do-bayonets-decrease-the-accuracy-of-rifles Reddit, posters in this thread, vets in forums: Weight of bayonets don't impact accuracy of rifle
Competitive shooters: Often add weight to their weapons for increased accuracy
No-one is saying bayonets are frequently used as a primary weapon in modern warfare. We're just calling bull on the "Bayonets got dropped entirely immediately when we learned it hurt accuracy". Both the idea that bayonets actually were dropped, or that bayonets necessarily hurt accuracy. We've produced plenty of sources. If you wish to continue the debate, please either introduce a novel argument, provide a novel refutation to the counterarguments, or produce an authoritative source to such an effect. "I play with guns" does not make an authoritative source, even when compared to Wikipedia or Reddit.
2019/10/11 14:55:08
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
So to steer this train wreck back on course: Can anyone identify the purpose of the loop under the Bolt Rifle's muzzle? Sure looks like a bayonet lug to me.
So why aren't there any Primaris models with bayonets? Surely at least one of the many LTs would have one modeled?
Galef wrote: So to steer this train wreck back on course: Can anyone identify the purpose of the loop under the Bolt Rifle's muzzle? Sure looks like a bayonet lug to me.
So why aren't there any Primaris models with bayonets? Surely at least one of the many LTs would have one modeled?
-
for PM there are chainsword and normal bajoneets. seems that the doctrine of the unit depends on chapter/ legion and so does use.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/10/11 15:47:32
Subject: Bolter Bayonets - why are these not more common?
I think bayonets look really appropriate on guardsmen because they're trying to keeping things like Nids or demons at more than arm's reach - even just the effect of having a bayonet might improve morale for dug in humans in a brutal scifi world.
I still don't think a SM would be more effective stabbing his bolter over using a big combat knife, a marine would probably have greater efficiency in H2H by using a knife and his offhand. That said it certainly looks cool, especially on something like IW or 30k WE.
) is to fight at a range around 300 m
