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He also only has one unit that can fire without LOS, so make sure you're using sufficient terrain (ITC levels seem to be the best balanced in my experience, with the first floors of ruins always blocking LOS) so that you can avoid being gunned down too early. Deep Striking to get into good firing position should help as well, since almost nothing in his army can use Auspex Scan to repel your shooting. Dark Angels have Drop Pods, right?
flat terrain on only one tier buildings happen, on our tables. And we don't use ITC building rules. Am not sure if DA drop pods work like the marine, ones, but I will forward the advice. Thank you very much.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
He also only has one unit that can fire without LOS, so make sure you're using sufficient terrain (ITC levels seem to be the best balanced in my experience, with the first floors of ruins always blocking LOS) so that you can avoid being gunned down too early. Deep Striking to get into good firing position should help as well, since almost nothing in his army can use Auspex Scan to repel your shooting. Dark Angels have Drop Pods, right?
flat terrain on only one tier buildings happen, on our tables. And we don't use ITC building rules. Am not sure if DA drop pods work like the marine, ones, but I will forward the advice. Thank you very much.
I mean, that might be a big chunk of your problem. If you don't have enough terrain on your board, then gunlines are going to rule the day almost regardless of tactics. 8th edition pretty much requires decent LOS blocking terrain if you want movement and placement to mean anything.
BrianDavion wrote: in the same vein mind you, this is also something you WANT, ignroing iron hands for a moment (when everyone else gets 2 chapter traits and they get 3, there is no denying they're unbalanced) the space marine codex is a great codex. Whereas with Codex Adeptus Adepts I might be locked into 1 or 2 decent builds, Marines have a huge number of options that are solid. everyone focuses on Iron Hands, but IMHO Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are both really good too. (and IMHO make the the "top marines trinity" right now) And Raven Guard and Scars have their uses.
Absolutely this is what I want, for all codexes. You're 100% correct with that. GW have done a great job with the Marine dex and supplements, it's just a shame they look so strong compared to everything else. I really hope other codexes get this treatment sooner rather than later.
The game already has a problem with to much lethality, making everyone more powerful isn't good for the game.
BrianDavion wrote: in the same vein mind you, this is also something you WANT, ignroing iron hands for a moment (when everyone else gets 2 chapter traits and they get 3, there is no denying they're unbalanced) the space marine codex is a great codex. Whereas with Codex Adeptus Adepts I might be locked into 1 or 2 decent builds, Marines have a huge number of options that are solid. everyone focuses on Iron Hands, but IMHO Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are both really good too. (and IMHO make the the "top marines trinity" right now) And Raven Guard and Scars have their uses.
Absolutely this is what I want, for all codexes. You're 100% correct with that. GW have done a great job with the Marine dex and supplements, it's just a shame they look so strong compared to everything else. I really hope other codexes get this treatment sooner rather than later.
The game already has a problem with to much lethality, making everyone more powerful isn't good for the game.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. What I want for all codexes is for parity inter-codex. I don't want to have 1 or 2 builds and units that are far better than others.
It would be nice to take my Warbikes out without feeling like I should, without question, be taking something else if I want a hope in hell of winning.
IMHO the problem with IH is the quantity of extra rules they get:
- Overwatch on 5s and 6s (on 4s with a strat) -> better than T'au Sept Tenet, which requires a friendly unit to be within 6"
- FnP 6+ -> better than Tyr Leviathan Fleet Adaptation, which requires a friendly SYNAPSE unit to be within 6"
- Double remaining wounds on damage table
- Move and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty -> basically the Necron Sautekh Dynasty code (without the part on other weapons becoming Assault)
- Reroll 1s to hit with Heavy Weapons -> no requirement for standing still, just a flat reroll 1s.
And this is just the IH Chapter Tactic + Doctrine.
Other factions don't have a fifth of what the IH get just for existing, being on the board, not requiring a single support model nor an aura ability. We're talking about extra FREE rules, that don't cost any point.
Add to this the -1 Ap across the board with the Devastator Docrine, absurd healing potential, the Ironstone relic, Dreadnought-character strat and all others, psychic discipline and so forth.
Most importantly, add all this to the widest range of models in 40K which incidentally is also the most commonly owned by the playerbase.
If they gave all this insanity to Dark Eldars, for example, there would be way less outcry as DE players are mythological creatures more rare than bigfoot. But SM players are everywhere (myself included, as I have a few of them).
Considering that they can't nerf point for IH while not affecting other SM chapters, as the IH supplement stands alone, I have no idea on how they can address this. I just hope they intend to.
Other factions don't have a fifth of what the IH get just for existing, being on the board, not requiring a single support model nor an aura ability. We're talking about extra FREE rules, that don't cost any point.
No we're not. In order to get two of the abilities you listed you also need to cut off access to Battle Brothers and be in a specific gamestate, cutting off access to other tools that Space Marines have on hand. It doesn't cost points, but that doesn't make it free, because there's a significant opportunity cost.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Note though, there isn't a single Repulsor in those 6 or so Iron Hands lists that are in the BFS Top 10.
It'll all about Stormtalons, Stormhawks, sprinkled with maybe 1-2 Character-Mortis Dreads, etc.. Nick Rose has 3 Landspeeders, Incursors and 3 Invictor Suits. Jack Harpster has Iron Hand Assault Centurions and some IH Smash Captains.
They all take up lots of board-space and maximize the ability of Iron Hand units to be out alone, unsupported. And all have combat units, rather than just shooty castles.
This is because so much of the SM codex is strong that they are one of the few factions that is able to take a variety of units in a competitive list and still perform. Not only are the SM supplements at a higher level competitively than all others right now, but they are also incredibly well balanced internally.
Why am I raising this here? Because it comes incredibly hard to tailor against a specific faction when the faction has so many competitive options open to it. I think Stormtalons and Stormhawks are going to be very common, mind.
We must not be playing the same game, because everything in the Marine codex is still sinfully overcosted for the durability. They're kind of in the same place as Guardmen at the moment: not actually good on their own merits, but with enough buffs to become a problem. (Not IG tanks, those are really good for the points.) The difference is that it doesn't take much to make 4-point guardsmen into a problem, while Marines need ... the IH rules, basically. Most of the Marine codex is still garbage without three or four layers of buffs.
(And before you jump in to point out how Guard are doing on the tournament scene, they seem to still be the rock to Marine's scissors.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/13 23:00:18
Sunny Side Up wrote: Note though, there isn't a single Repulsor in those 6 or so Iron Hands lists that are in the BFS Top 10.
It'll all about Stormtalons, Stormhawks, sprinkled with maybe 1-2 Character-Mortis Dreads, etc.. Nick Rose has 3 Landspeeders, Incursors and 3 Invictor Suits. Jack Harpster has Iron Hand Assault Centurions and some IH Smash Captains.
They all take up lots of board-space and maximize the ability of Iron Hand units to be out alone, unsupported. And all have combat units, rather than just shooty castles.
This is because so much of the SM codex is strong that they are one of the few factions that is able to take a variety of units in a competitive list and still perform. Not only are the SM supplements at a higher level competitively than all others right now, but they are also incredibly well balanced internally.
Why am I raising this here? Because it comes incredibly hard to tailor against a specific faction when the faction has so many competitive options open to it. I think Stormtalons and Stormhawks are going to be very common, mind.
We must not be playing the same game, because everything in the Marine codex is still sinfully overcosted for the durability. They're kind of in the same place as Guardmen at the moment: not actually good on their own merits, but with enough buffs to become a problem. (Not IG tanks, those are really good for the points.) The difference is that it doesn't take much to make 4-point guardsmen into a problem, while Marines need ... the IH rules, basically. Most of the Marine codex is still garbage without three or four layers of buffs.
(And before you jump in to point out how Guard are doing on the tournament scene, they seem to still be the rock to Marine's scissors.)
I think you are quote wrong, other chapters are also super good, it was shown on London GT - atleast 5 undefeated lists, took part of atrleast other 2 Impirium undefeated list.
They were only beaten by the aeldar flyers spam, who will probably be addressed in CA and IH are already destroying that kind of army.
What people should stop repeating is SM die like space marines, most of the armies would dream that their troops die like SM. T4 2+ in cover is not easy thing to remove for most armies and usually you have to dedicate 2x more costly units.
The release of SM 2.0 was really big mistake that really can push alot of people out of the game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/14 06:29:59
greyknight12 wrote: Wow, so now we’re getting derailed with apologists instead. Sorry for trying.
You guys will laugh when you see the lists.
Not a single Levi or repulsor and only one iron father.
Not really a surprise.
Those that read the rumors accurately already knew that the IH parking lot was going to be a trap choice (and far from unbeatable), while the real OP stuff would have been a multiple small vehicle list.
The true strenght of IH armies lies in mobility, not in durability, and those lists with lots of flyers and land speeders goes to show exactly that.
But let them think that the parking lot is the end of the meta and anyone else who disagrees is just an apologist.
Dr. Mills wrote: Dreadnought Character Stratagem = One model per army only.
Just limit it to work only on codex dreadnoughts, like they did for the helbrute stratagem...
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
godardc wrote: Lots of people are complaining about the IH being so strong, some even spoke about not playing against them anymore. So I was curious to know of your victories against them, in order to prove they can be beaten / to reassure moral of the troops !
So guys, have you faces the new IH ? Did you beat them ? Let us the world know !
Get first turn, charge things, and 4-corner things. If something beefy goes into the dreadnought[s], followed by something with a lot of cheap models, they'll wind up tarpitted by like 4-point guardsmen. Same goes for most of their infantry. Give them a target they're bad at fighting in melee, and keep them in melee [which might also get them out of devastator doctrine], and you can neutralize a portion of the list.
The Repulsors are a toughie, though and the only think I can really think of is to assassinate Fierros, the Ironstone caddy, and then knock them down. That said, it's far easier said than done and I haven't thought of a way to assassinate 1 in a turn, much less both.
I've been considering massed Leman Russ Demolisher as an idea, since they can blast their way through the Ironstone to knock down the Repulsors and if you have a lot of them, they can't answer all of them. That said, in any capacity, you need first turn before they destroy your things in detail. Outflanking a thing that can kill a Repulsor, like a Shadowsword or Knight, might also be a valid idea, but it would only get to kill one before dying, you need to kill 3, and it only arrives on T2.
Going mass heavy infantry or mass T7 tanks is basically a death sentence, since they're most efficient at fighting other marine-type units. I would also avoid going knights, because the Repulsors have high spike damage that can knock them out very quickly. I don't know what they're least effective against, but masses of light infantry and masses of T8 are both good candidates, the former somewhat limiting the contribution of the Repulsors and the latter somewhat limiting the contribution of the Leviathan[s] and bolter men. Somewhat is the key word though, because it doesn't really limit it.
It's worth mention the other SM subtypes are also really good. The Iron Hands unkillable dreadnought and Repulsors makes headlines, but it's not the only really nasty space marine list out there. As for the Iron Hands, the best answer I can think of is either "if you can't beat them, join them", or "play something as far from marine-like as possible."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/14 06:02:05
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Other factions don't have a fifth of what the IH get just for existing, being on the board, not requiring a single support model nor an aura ability. We're talking about extra FREE rules, that don't cost any point.
No we're not. In order to get two of the abilities you listed you also need to cut off access to Battle Brothers and be in a specific gamestate, cutting off access to other tools that Space Marines have on hand. It doesn't cost points, but that doesn't make it free, because there's a significant opportunity cost.
You mean the only cost is the fact you dont soup your faction with other factions? Ohh yeah... the horror... thats almost like saying factions like orks and necrons pay this price by simply existing..
Please. This gak is broken. The eldar flier spam everyone keeps referencing is just that.. one trick pony list eldar have been forced into because everything else in the codex is not good enough. Now even more so than ever. So yeah...
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
greyknight12 wrote: Wow, so now we’re getting derailed with apologists instead. Sorry for trying.
So place 1-4 go to ih.
Question is, was the competition just bad or this a taste of the things to come?
No.
Final results were
1st IH successor
2nd IH 3rd Raven Guard
4th Aeldari
5th IH successor
There was another IH in the top 10. Just for completeness sake there were 3 Aeldari lists and 2 Ork lists filling out the top 10. Some top players there so the competition was not just bad, nor was it a Marine shut-out although Marines were clearly overperforming with 5 of the top 10 from something like 25-30% of the total entries to the tournament.
None of the IH lists were what the internet has been raging over, they were all far more aggressive and clearly not designed to castle up. Also the IH chapter tactic is clearly not really the issue when 2 of the top 3 IH lists did not even bother with it. The super-doctrine is clearly very powerful when applied to already aggressively costed units like the Invictor Warsuit and the stratagems are also powerful and give the IH a real toolbox to play with.
Going forwards I think what we need to theory-craft is how to beat mobile aggressive Iron Hands lists with lots of things like Flyers and Invictors. That looks more like the real threat, retaining their full efficiency while on the move is giving some already strong units a bit of extra oomph.
The funny thing is that the people saying that anchoring around a buff bubble with "unkillable" vehicles might not be a strategy that can actually win events, and people should play it out before whining about it... were entirely correct, based off these results.
Not a single Iron daddy, Leviathan, or Executioner in all those lists that placed high. Iron Hands are still very strong clearly, but not for any of the reasons you guys were complaining about, which is an excellent example of why we should wait to these things hit tournament before changing them, and why mathhammer and theorycrafting isn't equivalent to actual play experience. A the very least you get to know what to ask for changes to, if any, though I still say lets get a bit of a clearer picture first. And yeah, Iron Hands look very strong, but honestly Drukhari was putting up similar results after release and they have a playerbase the fraction of the size of marines.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/14 12:18:01
Nitro Zeus wrote: The funny thing is that the people saying that anchoring around a buff bubble with "unkillable" vehicles might not be a strategy that can actually win events, and people should play it out before whining about it... were entirely correct, based off these results.
Not a single Iron daddy, Leviathan, or Executioner in all those lists that placed high. Iron Hands are still very strong clearly, but not for any of the reasons you guys were complaining about, which is an excellent example of why we should wait to these things hit tournament before changing them, and why mathhammer and theorycrafting isn't equivalent to actual play experience. A the very least you get to know what to ask for changes to, if any, though I still say lets get a bit of a clearer picture first. And yeah, Iron Hands look very strong, but honestly Drukhari was putting up similar results after release and they have a playerbase the fraction of the size of marines.
There are a couple camps at play - those who hate ITC without playing it and those who don't play 40K who still come here to needle the game and IH was their best chance. I get that IH severely breaks single objective missions, which is exactly why you shouldn't use those competitively and IH still needs fixing, but a lot of these lists and nowhere near the hype. Remember when people said Chaincannons were going to wreck everything?
The winning list was this -- no 5+ overwatch; No 6+++; No bracket boost.
Basically he ran a bunch of 2+ vehicles. No 5++ from IFF. Good luck winning games with low AP weapons. Is this list unbeatable? No idea, but guess what he beat Round 1?
Round 1 - IFF, Levi, 2 Executioners
Round 2 - Basic Boyz mob w/ support
Round 3 - The ultimate in Eldar flyer spam
Round 4 - Haywire and Disintegrators
Round 5 - IFF, 2 Invictors, 5 Cents, Mortis
Round 6 - Smash cap; Smash chap; 6 Cents, 2 Mortis, 3 Stormtalons
Spoiler:
Iron Hands Successor -- Master Artisans (Salamanders single reroll to hit and wound); Stealthy (cover)
Captain on bike, SS Librarian, Jump
Librarian Phobos
Techmarine on Bike
I still find it quite amazing how fast IH show up on top tables after their Supplement.
I also will be awaiting the time when we see the really optimized lists for them.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Nitro Zeus wrote: The funny thing is that the people saying that anchoring around a buff bubble with "unkillable" vehicles might not be a strategy that can actually win events, and people should play it out before whining about it... were entirely correct, based off these results.
Not a single Iron daddy, Leviathan, or Executioner in all those lists that placed high. Iron Hands are still very strong clearly, but not for any of the reasons you guys were complaining about, which is an excellent example of why we should wait to these things hit tournament before changing them, and why mathhammer and theorycrafting isn't equivalent to actual play experience. A the very least you get to know what to ask for changes to, if any, though I still say lets get a bit of a clearer picture first. And yeah, Iron Hands look very strong, but honestly Drukhari was putting up similar results after release and they have a playerbase the fraction of the size of marines.
There are a couple camps at play - those who hate ITC without playing it and those who don't play 40K who still come here to needle the game and IH was their best chance. I get that IH severely breaks single objective missions, which is exactly why you shouldn't use those competitively and IH still needs fixing, but a lot of these lists and nowhere near the hype. Remember when people said Chaincannons were going to wreck everything?
The winning list was this -- no 5+ overwatch; No 6+++; No bracket boost.
Basically he ran a bunch of 2+ vehicles. No 5++ from IFF. Good luck winning games with low AP weapons. Is this list unbeatable? No idea, but guess what he beat Round 1?
Round 1 - IFF, Levi, 2 Executioners
Round 2 - Basic Boyz mob w/ support
Round 3 - The ultimate in Eldar flyer spam
Round 4 - Haywire and Disintegrators
Round 5 - IFF, 2 Invictors, 5 Cents, Mortis
Round 6 - Smash cap; Smash chap; 6 Cents, 2 Mortis, 3 Stormtalons
Spoiler:
Iron Hands Successor -- Master Artisans (Salamanders single reroll to hit and wound); Stealthy (cover)
Captain on bike, SS Librarian, Jump
Librarian Phobos
Techmarine on Bike
Would love to know if he used the iron stone relic as successors can use the relics for CP and with a brigade of CP 1CP wasn't going to break the bank.
Some of those choices make sence, though combining master artisans, stealthy and the ironhands super doctrines is just filthy especially when your building around single model units
BrianDavion wrote: man if 5+s to hit where a huuge deal you'd think we'd be hearing more complaints about OP Ork gunnery.
They will be rerolling all those 5+ too...Use brain. They have chapter masters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's a dice game boys and girls. Even and extremely broken army can lose just as an extremely UP armies like last years marines could win a game too. As long as everyone is trying to win some with go both ways.
There is no excuse for the power disparity in the game right now though. Rules should come out for all armies at the same time if we are to have "competitive" games. You quite literally should not be playing marines against non marines right now. Tournaments I guess have no choice but to allow 8.5 armies to play 8.0 armies but just expect a lot of iron hands.
Also - if you are losing with Ironhands - you really need to learn to make a list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 13:26:37
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Not Online!!! wrote: I still find it quite amazing how fast IH show up on top tables after their Supplement.
I also will be awaiting the time when we see the really optimized lists for them.
Because they are marines, and everyone has a marine army lying around or knows someone they can borrow it from.
Lot easier to jump on a new OP army when its so common.
Not Online!!! wrote: I still find it quite amazing how fast IH show up on top tables after their Supplement.
I also will be awaiting the time when we see the really optimized lists for them.
Because they are marines, and everyone has a marine army lying around or knows someone they can borrow it from.
Lot easier to jump on a new OP army when its so common.
Yes but normally the first attempts for such lists would show up in the midfield if the army was good.
Now they get from the get go more or less top places.
And we haven't even seen real optimization yet, that is what amazes me.
BrianDavion wrote: man if 5+s to hit where a huuge deal you'd think we'd be hearing more complaints about OP Ork gunnery.
They will be rerolling all those 5+ too...Use brain. They have chapter masters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's a dice game boys and girls. Even and extremely broken army can lose just as an extremely UP armies like last years marines could win a game too. As long as everyone is trying to win some with go both ways.
There is no excuse for the power disparity in the game right now though. Rules should come out for all armies at the same time if we are to have "competitive" games. You quite literally should not be playing marines against non marines right now. Tournaments I guess have no choice but to allow 8.5 armies to play 8.0 armies but just expect a lot of iron hands.
Also - if you are losing with Ironhands - you really need to learn to make a list.
Which iron hands we are talking about. The deathblob can be clogged up like any meatgrinder.
The mobile lists though.That's a whole other can of worms imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 13:34:54
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: I still find it quite amazing how fast IH show up on top tables after their Supplement.
I also will be awaiting the time when we see the really optimized lists for them.
Because they are marines, and everyone has a marine army lying around or knows someone they can borrow it from.
Lot easier to jump on a new OP army when its so common.
Yes but normally the first attempts for such lists would show up in the midfield if the army was good.
Now they get from the get go more or less top places.
And we haven't even seen real optimization yet, that is what amazes me.
BrianDavion wrote: man if 5+s to hit where a huuge deal you'd think we'd be hearing more complaints about OP Ork gunnery.
They will be rerolling all those 5+ too...Use brain. They have chapter masters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's a dice game boys and girls. Even and extremely broken army can lose just as an extremely UP armies like last years marines could win a game too. As long as everyone is trying to win some with go both ways.
There is no excuse for the power disparity in the game right now though. Rules should come out for all armies at the same time if we are to have "competitive" games. You quite literally should not be playing marines against non marines right now. Tournaments I guess have no choice but to allow 8.5 armies to play 8.0 armies but just expect a lot of iron hands.
Also - if you are losing with Ironhands - you really need to learn to make a list.
Which iron hands we are talking about. The deathblob can be clogged up like any meatgrinder.
The mobile lists though.That's a whole other can of worms imo.
Fair points there...I really have no idea which will be best. I know they way I'd want to run it would be double executioner and levi dread with lots of intercessors. You only run deathblob if you need to - everything in this army can spread out and reroll 1's while on the move with no move penalties. Objectively - it plays objective game better than anyone gives it credit for.
In my mind I see Mass character dreads as probably being the strongest. Also Ironstone + Mass landspeeders and flyers seems pretty broken too.
Really - the thing no one is being honest about is how much iron hands benefits basically every unit better than any other chapter - or at least some build with that unit is superior. Regardless of what the powerlevel on this next wave of codex this needs to be addressed. Ether by buffing the weaker chapter aspects to be on par with the field or nerfing iron hands to be on par with the feild (also likely nerfing IF as well).
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Would love to know if he used the iron stone relic as successors can use the relics for CP and with a brigade of CP 1CP wasn't going to break the bank.
Some of those choices make sence, though combining master artisans, stealthy and the ironhands super doctrines is just filthy especially when your building around single model units
Yes, just the one relic though.
There are enough elements that would be out of the bubble and "safe" to shoot. I would bet that the TM on Bike was zipping around with the stone and doing double repairs where needed. Just another reason to take those old models out back and shoot them.
Would love to know if he used the iron stone relic as successors can use the relics for CP and with a brigade of CP 1CP wasn't going to break the bank.
Some of those choices make sence, though combining master artisans, stealthy and the ironhands super doctrines is just filthy especially when your building around single model units
Yes, just the one relic though.
There are enough elements that would be out of the bubble and "safe" to shoot. I would bet that the TM on Bike was zipping around with the stone and doing double repairs where needed. Just another reason to take those old models out back and shoot them.
IMHO that relic needs to be inserted into the designer responsible for that idea at speed.
Though it appears that people have already decied that ironhands super doctrine is the best and combines well with a few other choice traits for something truely disgustingly off meta.
Like seriously does GW not understand why no-one uses D6 damage single shot weapons of suck yet? As this makes the passable miltishot d2 weapons bad but still more reliable than d6 single shot weapons.
Nitro Zeus wrote: The funny thing is that the people saying that anchoring around a buff bubble with "unkillable" vehicles might not be a strategy that can actually win events, and people should play it out before whining about it... were entirely correct, based off these results.
Not a single Iron daddy, Leviathan, or Executioner in all those lists that placed high. Iron Hands are still very strong clearly, but not for any of the reasons you guys were complaining about, which is an excellent example of why we should wait to these things hit tournament before changing them, and why mathhammer and theorycrafting isn't equivalent to actual play experience. A the very least you get to know what to ask for changes to, if any, though I still say lets get a bit of a clearer picture first. And yeah, Iron Hands look very strong, but honestly Drukhari was putting up similar results after release and they have a playerbase the fraction of the size of marines.
There are a couple camps at play - those who hate ITC without playing it and those who don't play 40K who still come here to needle the game and IH was their best chance. I get that IH severely breaks single objective missions, which is exactly why you shouldn't use those competitively and IH still needs fixing, but a lot of these lists and nowhere near the hype. Remember when people said Chaincannons were going to wreck everything?
The winning list was this -- no 5+ overwatch; No 6+++; No bracket boost.
Basically he ran a bunch of 2+ vehicles. No 5++ from IFF. Good luck winning games with low AP weapons. Is this list unbeatable? No idea, but guess what he beat Round 1?
Round 1 - IFF, Levi, 2 Executioners
Round 2 - Basic Boyz mob w/ support
Round 3 - The ultimate in Eldar flyer spam
Round 4 - Haywire and Disintegrators
Round 5 - IFF, 2 Invictors, 5 Cents, Mortis
Round 6 - Smash cap; Smash chap; 6 Cents, 2 Mortis, 3 Stormtalons
Spoiler:
Iron Hands Successor -- Master Artisans (Salamanders single reroll to hit and wound); Stealthy (cover)
Captain on bike, SS Librarian, Jump
Librarian Phobos
Techmarine on Bike
Would love to know if he used the iron stone relic as successors can use the relics for CP and with a brigade of CP 1CP wasn't going to break the bank.
Some of those choices make sence, though combining master artisans, stealthy and the ironhands super doctrines is just filthy especially when your building around single model units
Master Artisans seems like an odd choice here, given that he's spamming multi-shot weapons for the most part. Not sure what I'd replace with though and free rerolls are always good. Cool list though
IMHO that relic needs to be inserted into the designer responsible for that idea at speed.
Though it appears that people have already decied that ironhands super doctrine is the best and combines well with a few other choice traits for something truely disgustingly off meta.
Like seriously does GW not understand why no-one uses D6 damage single shot weapons of suck yet? As this makes the passable miltishot d2 weapons bad but still more reliable than d6 single shot weapons.
Relic should have been maybe a single selected model chosen at the start of each round.
Super-doctrine does appear to be the major impetus though. It makes landspeeders pretty awesome. And as Rose figured out when you get them a 2+ save they become reasonably durable since they can hang out on the edges already.
Snipers are also quite a big issue these days. I have to shift to less open character support, because they're just dying too easily.
Fair points there...I really have no idea which will be best. I know they way I'd want to run it would be double executioner and levi dread with lots of intercessors. You only run deathblob if you need to - everything in this army can spread out and reroll 1's while on the move with no move penalties. Objectively - it plays objective game better than anyone gives it credit for.
In my mind I see Mass character dreads as probably being the strongest. Also Ironstone + Mass landspeeders and flyers seems pretty broken too.
Really - the thing no one is being honest about is how much iron hands benefits basically every unit better than any other chapter - or at least some build with that unit is superior. Regardless of what the powerlevel on this next wave of codex this needs to be addressed. Ether by buffing the weaker chapter aspects to be on par with the field or nerfing iron hands to be on par with the feild (also likely nerfing IF as well).
The deathblob is relatively easy beatable if you have a lot off chaff.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Eldar- 4436 pts
