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 Ordana wrote:
So clarification that you first divide damage by 2 and then apply -1 (aka the biggest possible reduction) and Character dread is changed to once only.

overal impact, practically 0.

So much for that rumor that GW is scrambling in the wake of a communication mishap. enjoy your IH supremacy.

Whelp...at least its consistent with the rules. Why they didn't nerf anything else after weeks of delays...feth if I know.

*sigh* time to settle into crazy town meta.

GK got nerfed just after their codex came out, with the razorback, storm raven point hike. So it is not like GW always waits for months to nerf an army.

Karol wrote:
GK got nerfed just after their codex came out, with the razorback, storm raven point hike. So it is not like GW always waits for months to nerf an army.

Well, GK was nerfed indirectly, because of Bobby and Asscans. Its entirely possibly that the meta is so warped by IH and friends that GW will be forced to respond like they did back then. It just isn't a good idea to bank on it since CA will likely go to print a little over a month from now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
GK got nerfed just after their codex came out, with the razorback, storm raven point hike. So it is not like GW always waits for months to nerf an army.

Well, GK was nerfed indirectly, because of Bobby and Asscans. Its entirely possibly that the meta is so warped by IH and friends that GW will be forced to respond like they did back then. It just isn't a good idea to bank on it since CA will likely go to print a little over a month from now.

go to print?
The book will have already gone to print

 Ordana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
GK got nerfed just after their codex came out, with the razorback, storm raven point hike. So it is not like GW always waits for months to nerf an army.

Well, GK was nerfed indirectly, because of Bobby and Asscans. Its entirely possibly that the meta is so warped by IH and friends that GW will be forced to respond like they did back then. It just isn't a good idea to bank on it since CA will likely go to print a little over a month from now.

go to print?
The book will have already gone to print

I think you re correct it will have gone to print a while ago.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
So clarification that you first divide damage by 2 and then apply -1 (aka the biggest possible reduction) and Character dread is changed to once only.

overal impact, practically 0.

So much for that rumor that GW is scrambling in the wake of a communication mishap. enjoy your IH supremacy.

Whelp...at least its consistent with the rules. Why they didn't nerf anything else after weeks of delays...feth if I know.

*sigh* time to settle into crazy town meta.

Weeks of delays? It's been 10 days since IH released I know it has felt like longer thanks to the dozens of hysterical threads.

This seems like the correct course of action by GW correct the error and clarify the unclear then take a step back and see what happens once people start working out counters to the new meta. If the meta solidifies then make changes or drop the next release the shakes the meta up.

So preliminary discussion predicted that IH would be OP, and named some particularly nasty units. IH did turn out to be OP, but the prediction of those specific units was wrong, so therefore the entire prediction was wrong? And not only that, but trying to predict things based on rules is unreliable as a whole? And not only that but it is OK that IH are OP because counters exist, and maybe something else just as bad will show up in the future?

Seems like business as usual

If white beat black 4/5 times in chess and the response was "well white still loses games so it's OK." People would raise an eyebrow.

SeanDrake 781287 10601486 wrote:

Weeks of delays? It's been 10 days since IH released I know it has felt like longer thanks to the dozens of hysterical threads.

This seems like the correct course of action by GW correct the error and clarify the unclear then take a step back and see what happens once people start working out counters to the new meta. If the meta solidifies then make changes or drop the next release the shakes the meta up.

well people on polish forums, had the rules from 4chan 3 weeks before the official premier. I am assuming that players that live in UK/US can get the rules faster and easier, I would say people knew that something was wrong with the rules for over a month now. And GW knew that the rules were iffy, at worse then the books went to print. So like 2-3 months ago.

only ork list I have had luck against IH with is SSAG, mek guns dakka jets, and the rest of the points in boyz a wiedboy and a couple warbosses (pretty much the ork netlist that with a good pilot can take tournaments). None of my fun liusts stood a chance but the tournament level list pulls off a close game, though the win rate is not great in the ork favor with me at the helm.

 Ordana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
GK got nerfed just after their codex came out, with the razorback, storm raven point hike. So it is not like GW always waits for months to nerf an army.

Well, GK was nerfed indirectly, because of Bobby and Asscans. Its entirely possibly that the meta is so warped by IH and friends that GW will be forced to respond like they did back then. It just isn't a good idea to bank on it since CA will likely go to print a little over a month from now.

go to print?
The book will have already gone to print

It's soft cover so they can print it in the UK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
So clarification that you first divide damage by 2 and then apply -1 (aka the biggest possible reduction) and Character dread is changed to once only.

overal impact, practically 0.

So much for that rumor that GW is scrambling in the wake of a communication mishap. enjoy your IH supremacy.

Whelp...at least its consistent with the rules. Why they didn't nerf anything else after weeks of delays...feth if I know.

*sigh* time to settle into crazy town meta.

Weeks of delays? It's been 10 days since IH released I know it has felt like longer thanks to the dozens of hysterical threads.

This seems like the correct course of action by GW correct the error and clarify the unclear then take a step back and see what happens once people start working out counters to the new meta. If the meta solidifies then make changes or drop the next release the shakes the meta up.

Hmm? The book was out Sep 21, which made the "official" FAQ Oct 5th. So, not weeks, but still...

I think, like others have said it seems pretty clear that IH are pretty strong and the FAQ did nothing to temper it. I'm sure we'll figure it out, but it might be a bit miserable until then.

The Iron Hands FAQ has been updated.

While we always strive to incorporate every scrap of
feedback we can into our rules, whilst working on Codex
Supplement: Iron Hands, we received some additional
feedback after we had gone to print. We have waited
before releasing this errata to see whether the feedback
received bore out – it is quite evident that it has and,
as a result, we felt it was important to implement that
feedback as part of this errata rather than wait for the
next online balance change. This is not something
we do lightly, but given the nature of the feedback, is
something we feel is important.
- The Warhammer 40,000 Rules Team

To be honest...IH are exceptionally busted. But Imperial fists are not far behind. Army wide +1 damage to vehicles should not exist. Just think if you had a stratagem for a unit to do +1 damage....kind of like the nids stratagem that does exactly that for a single unit. That costs 2 CP....Imperial fists get that every turn for every damn unit...NOT balanced.

The worst part of all this is that it's going to be even harder to get people to come to events.

On one half you have the people that don't want to just get steamrolled by marines and on the other half you have the people who wont show up if you ban the supplements.

There's literally no winning for event organizers until GW mans up and admits they made a huge mistake with these very obvious profit driven rules.

This whole release is a disaster for events and short of recalling all the supplements and either scrapping or redoing them wholesale they've just driven the game back into the dark days of 7th.

 Latro_ wrote:
best way to beat them:
- join them and run IH
- time travel to the faq nerf

As i said, hello and welcome to the future
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/warhammer_40000_iron_hands_en-1.pdf

the clever tourney players are not really effected by this as they didnt rely on any of it anyhoo whislt playing iron hands.

This is decent.

Page 58 – The Ironstone
Change this Relic to read:
‘At the start of each battle round, select one friendly
Iron Hands Vehicle unit within 3" of the bearer of this
Relic. Until the start of your next battle round, when
resolving an attack made against that Vehicle unit, if
the bearer of this Relic is within 3" of that Vehicle unit
you can reduce any damage suffered by 1, to a minimum
of 1.’


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No more double repiar.
Psychic Vect is 2 CP
4+ overwatch is 2 CP
Psykers can't heal a healed vehicle
Ironstone is one model
IFF 5++ is Infantry only

These are good changes.

 Crimson wrote:
These are good changes.

I think the repair nerfs and the invuln nerf may have been to much, otherwise good changes.

Okay...not bad changes.

I think everyone is going to completely forget about iron Hands when the Fists codex drops now. It was an unfortunate time in the sun for my cybernetic boys :(

Quasistellar wrote:
I think everyone is going to completely forget about iron Hands when the Fists codex drops now. It was an unfortunate time in the sun for my cybernetic boys :(

Why?

No penalty for moving and free reroll 1s is still going to be great damage and board control.
I mean in terms of this thread - its a major nerf for the IH castle build. Its not going to impact the "look for efficient heavy weapon platforms that are cheap due to that -1 for moving" builds to the same extent.

I like the changes.

It was a fun couple weeks for you IH players. I wonder if I can get some cheap executioners because without the father's 5++ and -1 damage executioners just went from OP to ??

IH flyer spam is still alive and well but suffers from the "if I go second I lose" problem. No HW penalty and re-rolls of 1s is still really strong but without double repair, -1 to damage and a 5++ IH parking lots have lost a lot, still good but don't seem so oppressively OMG I QUIT 40K FOREVER OP.


I wish GW was this quick in "fixing" alaitoc flyers...

Indeed, the fact that IH vehicles still basically all get 3 different Imperial Guard Doctrine traits, a Stratagem, and Warlord trait as standard always-on abilities on top of everything else means nobody is going to be forgetting about IH any time soon, it just means some of the most immediately broken combos/builds got curbed a bit.

That’s the thing though—because they didn’t touch the dev doctrine + calculated fury combo, I fully believe IH will receive future nerfs. A lot of the winningest lists took or used none of the stuff that got nerfed in this errata.

I don't know if it is a lot of winning lists that didn't use this stuff (seems to be just the outliers of that one early tournament). Some winning lists sure but it seems the majority (at least thus far) will be impacted by these changes.

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-man-with-the-iron-hands-understanding-the-current-40k-meta/

23 of 27 non-soup IH lists took the iron father for example.

The TFC should probably be up for the nerf-bat next but it's hard to tell if that unit is OP or just good at this point (it's used in a lot of SM lists across the board).

Quasistellar wrote:
That’s the thing though—because they didn’t touch the dev doctrine + calculated fury combo, I fully believe IH will receive future nerfs. A lot of the winningest lists took or used none of the stuff that got nerfed in this errata.

I was going to take back my statement, but it looks like this gentleman is correct.

They've still got another round of nerfs to go before this problem is significantly repaired.

bananathug wrote:
I don't know if it is a lot of winning lists that didn't use this stuff (seems to be just the outliers of that one early tournament). Some winning lists sure but it seems the majority (at least thus far) will be impacted by these changes.

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-man-with-the-iron-hands-understanding-the-current-40k-meta/

23 of 27 non-soup IH lists took the iron father for example.

The TFC should probably be up for the nerf-bat next but it's hard to tell if that unit is OP or just good at this point (it's used in a lot of SM lists across the board).

Well it’s used a lot mostly because it’s one of the only ways for marines to indirect fire and that is very important with the ITC ruins rule.

bananathug wrote:
I don't know if it is a lot of winning lists that didn't use this stuff (seems to be just the outliers of that one early tournament). Some winning lists sure but it seems the majority (at least thus far) will be impacted by these changes.

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-man-with-the-iron-hands-understanding-the-current-40k-meta/

23 of 27 non-soup IH lists took the iron father for example.

The TFC should probably be up for the nerf-bat next but it's hard to tell if that unit is OP or just good at this point (it's used in a lot of SM lists across the board).

Well it was a bit of hyperbole when I said “none” to be sure. And Feirros was slightly under costed before all the nerfs I’ll agree.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

bananathug wrote:
I don't know if it is a lot of winning lists that didn't use this stuff (seems to be just the outliers of that one early tournament). Some winning lists sure but it seems the majority (at least thus far) will be impacted by these changes.

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-man-with-the-iron-hands-understanding-the-current-40k-meta/

23 of 27 non-soup IH lists took the iron father for example.

The TFC should probably be up for the nerf-bat next but it's hard to tell if that unit is OP or just good at this point (it's used in a lot of SM lists across the board).

Well it’s used a lot mostly because it’s one of the only ways for marines to indirect fire and that is very important with the ITC ruins rule.

Also to blow out the mobility of 2 units of the player's choice every turn

Quasistellar wrote:
That’s the thing though—because they didn’t touch the dev doctrine + calculated fury combo, I fully believe IH will receive future nerfs. A lot of the winningest lists took or used none of the stuff that got nerfed in this errata.

The winning lists were most certainly making use of heal spam.

 Continuity wrote:

Also to blow out the mobility of 2 units of the player's choice every turn

Which is 3CP each time, sooo...maybe once per game.

Better changes, some of which were proposed by the community.

Not touching the super doctrine still makes me think we will get a LOT of IH/successor lists top tournaments in the coming weeks/months.