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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/19 18:04:49
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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After watching X-Men: Apocalypse, Charles Xavier tells Apocalypse that he is just another false god, using the powers of others to ascend to a "god-like" status, which brings me to my next point: Isn't the Emperor just another false god, since he gained/stole/made a deal with the Chaos Gods on Molech? Thoughts?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/19 18:50:08
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Heretic! Automatically Appended Next Post: All jokes aside, this was literally the premise of the Horus Heresy.
I guess it very much depends on which side you're on and what you mean by 'false' god.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/19 18:51:55
For the Emperor and Sanguinius!
40K Blood Angels ; 1,500pts / Kill Team: Valhallan Veteran Guardsmen / Aeronautica Imperialis Adeptus Astartes; 176pts / AoS Soulblight Gravelords; 1,120pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/19 19:18:44
Subject: Re:"Just Another False God"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I guess by "false god" I mean that their powers aren't of their own, taken or given by someone or something else, not of their own abilities.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/19 19:28:01
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Fixture of Dakka
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No he had plenty of godly power of his own before that. At a certain point you're just arguing what level of god power someone has.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/19 19:34:02
Subject: Re:"Just Another False God"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Psionara wrote:I guess by "false god" I mean that their powers aren't of their own, taken or given by someone or something else, not of their own abilities.
I can't see how they're not his own abilities. His psychic prowess, his brilliant strategy and his force of will accomplished everything he achieved. Whether he deceived the gods of Chaos is a matter of opinion, but the very fact that he was able to best them and challenge them in their own domain (the Warp) testifies to his power.
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For the Emperor and Sanguinius!
40K Blood Angels ; 1,500pts / Kill Team: Valhallan Veteran Guardsmen / Aeronautica Imperialis Adeptus Astartes; 176pts / AoS Soulblight Gravelords; 1,120pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/19 21:23:03
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Courageous Beastmaster
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"The difference between gods and demons depends entirely upon where one is standing"
Lorgar in the opening quotes of Horus Rising.
Be carefull when you quote Molech tough we only have very unreliable scources (chaos demons leading Horus on) to tell what happened behind the gates.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/19 21:25:19
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Earth127 wrote:"The difference between gods and demons depends entirely upon where one is standing"
Lorgar in the opening quotes of Horus Rising.
Be carefull when you quote Molech tough we only have very unreliable scources (chaos demons leading Horus on) to tell what happened behind the gates.
And despite Horus claiming he got the same gifts the Emperor did, it's becoming VERY VERY VERY clear he did not.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/20 01:40:54
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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BrianDavion wrote: Earth127 wrote:"The difference between gods and demons depends entirely upon where one is standing"
Lorgar in the opening quotes of Horus Rising.
Be carefull when you quote Molech tough we only have very unreliable scources (chaos demons leading Horus on) to tell what happened behind the gates.
And despite Horus claiming he got the same gifts the Emperor did, it's becoming VERY VERY VERY clear he did not.
I think BiggiE out foxed(tzeentch), bested(Khorne), beguiled(Slannesh) & Cured(Nurgle) the "gods". Horus was tricked by them into thinking he had, whereas BiggiE actually did. BiggiE most likely made a "deal"(fingers n toes crossed)with them that saw the 4 turn on each other when they realized they're the ones who were tricked.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/20 03:45:50
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Fixture of Dakka
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Darian Aarush wrote:Heretic!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
All jokes aside, this was literally the premise of the Horus Heresy.
I guess it very much depends on which side you're on and what you mean by 'false' god.
Psionara wrote:I guess by "false god" I mean that their powers aren't of their own, taken or given by someone or something else, not of their own abilities.
It's just a matter of definition. If your definition of a "real god" is that your powers are your own, not given by someone or something else, then any old psyker imperial guardsman is a "god." Heck, I'm arguably a god by that definition if you ignore all the financial support I've received from my family over the years!
The emprah has psychic powers that appear to at least partiallyl (if not entirely) NOT stem from the chaos gods. He can do some neat stuff with those powers. Whether or not that qualifies as a "god" is up to you. There are real-world traditions that involve "gods" whose only supernatural powers are things like purifying drinking water, so make of that what you will. Pretty sure the emprah could beat Loki or Anansi at arm wrestling.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 03:46:27
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/20 06:35:37
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Been Around the Block
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The emperor never wanted to be a god and wanted to raise humanity to a higher level.
Ironically to protect mankind from the dangers of of the universe he had to basically act like a god.
You guys know the whole ecclisiarchy is based on lorgar's work which the emperor tried to crush, right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/20 15:50:12
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I'm of the opinion that the "power" the Emperor received from the chaos gods was the power to A) create warp spirits, and B) bund these spirits into physical form. These two gifts were the only things he lacked the ability to do in order to create the primarchs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/20 18:07:33
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sobekta wrote:You guys know the whole ecclisiarchy is based on lorgar's work which the emperor tried to crush, right?
Actually no, it's not. The Lectio Divinatus isn't the creed of the Ecclesiarchy which was built after the ascention of the God Emperor to the Golden Throne. The Lectio Divinatus is basically the equivalent of Arianism in Christianity vs Catholicism for the Ecclesiarchy.
PS: by the OP definition of Gods, the Chaos Gods themselves are false gods as they draw their power from mortal worship and emotion. They are only as strong as they are revered. The only true gods are thus the C'Tan whose power are godlike and don't depend on others.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 18:09:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/20 19:27:37
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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epronovost wrote: Sobekta wrote:You guys know the whole ecclisiarchy is based on lorgar's work which the emperor tried to crush, right?
Actually no, it's not. The Lectio Divinatus isn't the creed of the Ecclesiarchy which was built after the ascention of the God Emperor to the Golden Throne. The Lectio Divinatus is basically the equivalent of Arianism in Christianity vs Catholicism for the Ecclesiarchy.
PS: by the OP definition of Gods, the Chaos Gods themselves are false gods as they draw their power from mortal worship and emotion. They are only as strong as they are revered. The only true gods are thus the C'Tan whose power are godlike and don't depend on others.
Good point. What about the Eldar gods? And the Old Ones?
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For the Emperor and Sanguinius!
40K Blood Angels ; 1,500pts / Kill Team: Valhallan Veteran Guardsmen / Aeronautica Imperialis Adeptus Astartes; 176pts / AoS Soulblight Gravelords; 1,120pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/20 19:54:41
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I think Eldar gods work by the same rules as Chaos gods and there are several bits of fluff to support this. Slaanesh killed most of the old Eldar pantheon in The Fall and consumed their power, that suggests they were the same order of being in order for the Dark Prince to eat them. Also the ritual to awaken the Avatar seems suspiciously similar to summoning/binding a great daemon.
The Old Ones are a bit more ambiguous as there is less fluff about them. To be fair, I don't think they were warp entities at all. They were described cold and unemotional. In spite of their mastery of the warp, I think that they were simply biological beings who had developed extremely advanced magic/technology (Clarke's law.
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I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/21 10:30:37
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Psionara wrote:After watching X-Men: Apocalypse, Charles Xavier tells Apocalypse that he is just another false god, using the powers of others to ascend to a "god-like" status, which brings me to my next point: Isn't the Emperor just another false god, since he gained/stole/made a deal with the Chaos Gods on Molech? Thoughts?
There are two words you need to define.
How do you define god?
How do you define your usage of false in that context?
Here is a lost of proposed deities by category if you need inspiration:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities_by_classification
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/21 10:33:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/21 12:27:00
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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Niiai wrote: Psionara wrote:After watching X-Men: Apocalypse, Charles Xavier tells Apocalypse that he is just another false god, using the powers of others to ascend to a "god-like" status, which brings me to my next point: Isn't the Emperor just another false god, since he gained/stole/made a deal with the Chaos Gods on Molech? Thoughts?
There are two words you need to define.
How do you define god?
How do you define your usage of false in that context?
Here is a lost of proposed deities by category if you need inspiration:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities_by_classification
The term god is applied loosely enough outside of Christianity that we can accept the chaos gods as gods, small g.
A warp god in 40k is a specific type of warp entity- primal, created by human emotion and fuelled by worship.
The Emperor falls outside that because he was born a man, lived a human life before his ascension to the throne. He was already using his powers and influencing the real world long before he was worshipped.
Assuming claims that he stole/bartered power from the chaos gods are true- consider the competence/power it would require to be capable of taking power from warp gods- who are his enemies. He-Man taking power away from Skeletor while insisting no-one worship him does not make He-Man a false god.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/21 13:12:12
Subject: Re:"Just Another False God"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Psionara wrote:I guess by "false god" I mean that their powers aren't of their own, taken or given by someone or something else, not of their own abilities.
By that definition the Chaos Gods are "false gods" as well, since their entire power is siphoned from the Materium.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/21 13:27:20
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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Yeah, this conversation kind of hinges on what criteria could make for a "true god" so we could identify a "false" one.
The thing is, I don't know that there really is, or would be, anything like a "true" divinity in 40k. The closest are probably the Chaos gods, or the C'Tan. But really none of them are really "transcendental" or even akin to a Demiurge.
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"Wir sehen hiermit wieder die Sprache als das Dasein des Geistes." - The Phenomenology of Spirit |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/21 14:38:33
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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If we went with definitions of "God," we could use the following from google as it seems pretty accurate
1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
Clearly the Emperor is not the creator of the universe in 40k, but he is ruler of the known universe given than the only "state" is the Imperium plus insurgent Xenos and heretics. he is also the source of all moral authority for Imperials and the supreme being in the material world, possibly the Immaterium too. He comes pretty close to hitting this definition.
2.
(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
This deifnition is more concrete. Firstly, supernatural being he most definitely is, with power over both human and nature, and he is indeed worshipped. Thereby, he is a god by this second definition. As are Genestealer Patriarchs, Ork Warlords, and various other faction leaders.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/22 07:35:23
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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Deadshot wrote:
2.
(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
This deifnition is more concrete. Firstly, supernatural being he most definitely is, with power over both human and nature, and he is indeed worshipped. Thereby, he is a god by this second definition. As are Genestealer Patriarchs, Ork Warlords, and various other faction leaders.
That's for humans. An Ork warlord is 'superhuman' in the sense that he is above human ability. He's not 'Super-Orkoid' any more than an adult man is superhuman when surrounded by women and children. He's just the strongest guy in the room.
Thraka is considered a prophet of his gods- he's not an object of worship.
Genestealer cults engage in ancestor worship with the patriarch- specifically because they are conditioned to view him as a divine prophet of the stargods/four armed emperor etc. His dna/blood is divine in their estimation because it demonstrably gives them superhuman abilities.
I don't think we can apply the standard that worship makes something a god in 40k- not when we have real chaos beings with deamons and afterlife and everything. Humans might worship marines, custodes, inquisitors, but they are definitely not gods.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/22 09:07:59
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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In their own domains, top chaos lords ARE gods, though. Thanks to warp/reality overlap they can will entire planets into a forms that please them.
No wonder they are so grumpy when they leave the eye. Once they leave their lair they go from godly being that can manifest whatever it wants through sheer willpower to a space marine with a few tentacles.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/22 14:35:25
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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nareik wrote:In their own domains, top chaos lords ARE gods, though. Thanks to warp/reality overlap they can will entire planets into a forms that please them.
No wonder they are so grumpy when they leave the eye. Once they leave their lair they go from godly being that can manifest whatever it wants through sheer willpower to a space marine with a few tentacles.
I know the sorcerers of the thousand sons can directly shape their world, but I've never seen anything suggesting that chaos commaders can do that. Abaddon hasn't, to my knowledge- and Khayon's musings on the subject suggest that the warp changes the physical appearance of the marine/armour to reflect his true nature- growing horns to reflect a bestial nature, forked tongues for liars etc.
Regardless, what a mortal can do in the warp or a holodeck is not valid for determining whether they are a god for beings in the material universe.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/22 14:44:17
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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=Angel= wrote:...Khayon's musings on the subject suggest that the warp changes the physical appearance of the marine/armour to reflect his true nature- growing horns to reflect a bestial nature, forked tongues for liars etc
So where are the chaos marines with massive codpieces?
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/22 14:47:59
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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A Town Called Malus wrote: =Angel= wrote:...Khayon's musings on the subject suggest that the warp changes the physical appearance of the marine/armour to reflect his true nature- growing horns to reflect a bestial nature, forked tongues for liars etc
So where are the chaos marines with massive codpieces?
Your question contains your answer, he said "true nature" not imagined,
I kid, I kid, or maybe not, but still, death to the false emperor.
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"Wir sehen hiermit wieder die Sprache als das Dasein des Geistes." - The Phenomenology of Spirit |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/23 05:26:31
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Unbalanced Fanatic
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Carlovonsexron wrote:I'm of the opinion that the "power" the Emperor received from the chaos gods was the power to A) create warp spirits, and B) bund these spirits into physical form. These two gifts were the only things he lacked the ability to do in order to create the primarchs.
So are the Primarch basically daemons made physical? Does that mean Sangunius and Ferrus are still alive in the warp somewhere, in their daemonic form?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/23 11:08:26
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Fixture of Dakka
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Eipi10 wrote:Carlovonsexron wrote:I'm of the opinion that the "power" the Emperor received from the chaos gods was the power to A) create warp spirits, and B) bund these spirits into physical form. These two gifts were the only things he lacked the ability to do in order to create the primarchs.
So are the Primarch basically daemons made physical? Does that mean Sangunius and Ferrus are still alive in the warp somewhere, in their daemonic form?
Ferrus came back as a spirit in one of the heresy novels. Sangy might be properly dead though.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/23 11:37:59
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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H wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote: =Angel= wrote:...Khayon's musings on the subject suggest that the warp changes the physical appearance of the marine/armour to reflect his true nature- growing horns to reflect a bestial nature, forked tongues for liars etc
So where are the chaos marines with massive codpieces?
Your question contains your answer, he said "true nature" not imagined,
If you imagine being a Randy Marine long enough and hard enough then who's to say it does not become your true nature?
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/23 12:52:54
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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A Town Called Malus wrote:If you imagine being a Randy Marine long enough and hard enough then who's to say it does not become your true nature?
Well, I was mostly just joking.
However, I guess there is a real essentialist vs. existentialist sort of case to be made here. Just what is a true nature? In 40k we don't have those things because of aesthetics, most probably. If 40k were not fiction though, what would we have? Well, probably a whole bunch more really crazy, bizzare, deranged and weird things.
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"Wir sehen hiermit wieder die Sprache als das Dasein des Geistes." - The Phenomenology of Spirit |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 06:12:35
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Unbalanced Fanatic
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I think this debate will be settled when new noise marine models get released, unless GW decides they don't want to go that route.
But I don't think your average CSM cares about that stuff. Their still marines after all; pre/early-pubescent boys whose natural development is hijacked to turn them into autistic supersoldiers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/24 13:43:36
Subject: "Just Another False God"
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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A Town Called Malus wrote: H wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote: =Angel= wrote:...Khayon's musings on the subject suggest that the warp changes the physical appearance of the marine/armour to reflect his true nature- growing horns to reflect a bestial nature, forked tongues for liars etc
So where are the chaos marines with massive codpieces?
Your question contains your answer, he said "true nature" not imagined,
If you imagine being a Randy Marine long enough and hard enough then who's to say it does not become your true nature?
Avatar checks out. Randy marines would be atypical, even amongst the emperors children. Marines are conditioned to be violent and loyal, and traitors only generally break the last conditioning. When the Maraviglia concert happened in the HH, the emperors children had their first real slaaneshi experience (since corruption in the xenos temple) complete with daemonettes and they responded with violence to the stimulation. Marines generally do not have any interest in sexual couplings- though there's plenty of room for this after corruption etc.
Because its atypical, the marines with extended codpieces do not have model support. Arts and crafts is more common in the Blood Angels and he haven't been given any models for that extracurricular activuty yet either. Thats where conversions come in- and 3rd party models naturally.
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