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We have an IW beating thread and an IW imbalance thread.
But nobody has talked about RG in a separate thread.
SpikeyBits reported recently how good RG Eliminators are, see
https://spikeybits.com/2019/10/40k-competitive-are-raven-guard-eliminators-too-good.html
I'll try to play RG next time. Any thoughts?

Have you actually run the numbers on this? They really aren’t that scary. Notice how the don’t show average damage in the article, only the theoretical max

C4790M wrote:
Have you actually run the numbers on this? They really aren’t that scary. Notice how the don’t show average damage in the article, only the theoretical max

Classic spikey bits lol

Probably about the same level as IH and IF eliminators. RG are better at killing characters turn 2+ but the others are a bit more versatile.

IH stay in Devastator so have better AP and they can move for better positioning and have rerolls to hit. Probably better allround.

IF gets exploding 6s and ignores cover and will also stay in devastator doctrine and have more ap. Also better against vehicles than RG. IF eliminators arent bad point for point against vehicles if there are no characters to be sniped.

Successors/Salamanderw with MA also works well with the eliminators.

Its just that some options like RG with eliminators look more obviously good even though there are many other good options but you have to think an extra step or 2 why they are good.

Probably only WS that dont have any bonus for eliminators worth mentioning. All the others have some nice buffs. Feels like RG have a lot of that. Some really good combos and they will win games turn 1 in certain matchups but they arent as reliable as the other chapters with their buffs. RG going first or second has a larger impact than any of the other chapters and probably why we wont see it dominating. You cant always get that nasty first turn with all your infiltrators charging t1

 fraser1191 wrote:

C4790M wrote:
Have you actually run the numbers on this? They really aren’t that scary. Notice how the don’t show average damage in the article, only the theoretical max

Classic spikey bits lol

DAE think quadlas preds OP can do 24 damage to an IK!!!!

RG Eliminators are good for sure it I agree they aren't necessarily better than IF or IH versions though, plenty of scenarios where they are actually worse. Still very good at picking of lieutenants, farseers, librarians and what have you though.

From my (admittedly limited) experience the main strength of the Raven guard doesn't come from the super doctrine, or their chapter tactics, or their relics... it comes from the sheer number of shenanigans they can pull:
Master of Ambush means assault centurions with chaplain support in your face turn 1 for example.
Or strike from the shadows allowing infantry to appear when and where needed ( been on the receiving end of 10 auto bolt intercessors appearing in your back line, that'll mess up your plans let me tell you... Kiss goodbye to your objective holders).

Raven guard seem a lot less straight forward to use than IH or IF forces but on the upside in the hands of an experienced player you get a mobile, hard hitting force that can apply pressure where it needs to be and who can make themselves almost impossible to predict...

C4790M wrote:
Have you actually run the numbers on this? They really aren’t that scary. Notice how the don’t show average damage in the article, only the theoretical max

I feel like the community has been chasing paper tigers recently. Only looking at the most theoretically broken something can be but not at what is a more realistic output of damage that could be expected for given units, while ignoring tactics, terrain and generally any of the real world stuff that can get in the way (except when they're trying to show off why something is basically unkillable, then all that stuff suddenly matters again).

It's been pretty draining and I feel like the community is reenacting Chicken Little too much because it gets clicks on sites like Spikey Bits, rather than actually playing the game and seeing what does and doesn't actually work.

the_scotsman wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

C4790M wrote:
Have you actually run the numbers on this? They really aren’t that scary. Notice how the don’t show average damage in the article, only the theoretical max

Classic spikey bits lol

DAE think quadlas preds OP can do 24 damage to an IK!!!!

Preds are OP and need to be nerfed! A 175 point model can take down my 400+point model?! This game is so unbalanced!

I still refuse to use Eliminators simply because of the unit size being locked to the box itself. None of the other Primaris units have to deal with that.

That article hurt my brain, and I'm running Raven Guard Eliminators.

I agree that Raven Guard's strength is their deployment and movement options. Many of these don't kick in until after the seize roll is made, so you can be 100% certain that you're going first or choose to go second and fade back out of LOS.

A lot of their strategims favor jump pack infantry, so Vanguard Veterans are my favorite unit for RG. They seem to be better than Assault Marines in just about every respect.

One of the things that I think will be strongest against Raven Guard are forward-deployed units that push the RG player back further from your deployment zone. I suspect with the popularity of marine armies, scouts will be fighting for places in the middle of the board.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I still refuse to use Eliminators simply because of the unit size being locked to the box itself. None of the other Primaris units have to deal with that.

Or having a fixed unit size stops scaling issues with the Sergeant's 'Guided Aim' ability?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I still refuse to use Eliminators simply because of the unit size being locked to the box itself. None of the other Primaris units have to deal with that.

Suppressors do.

Also worth noting that the Incursors have the weirdness of no scaling on the Haywire Mines. It's one of the reasons I'm running MSUs instead of Combat Squadding like I do with Infiltrators and Reivers.

beast_gts wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I still refuse to use Eliminators simply because of the unit size being locked to the box itself. None of the other Primaris units have to deal with that.

Or having a fixed unit size stops scaling issues with the Sergeant's 'Guided Aim' ability?

I agree, could you imagine a 10 man squad with guided aim?

Raven Guard have some pretty neat stuff, but it's a thinking man's force, not a one-click easy-button win force like Iron Hands. Instead of getting a bunch of rules for free, you need to use your army appropriately, or else it'll die just like space marines died before they got these supplements.

Use your deployment shenanigans and character targetting skills wisely and you'll do great

beast_gts wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I still refuse to use Eliminators simply because of the unit size being locked to the box itself. None of the other Primaris units have to deal with that.

Or having a fixed unit size stops scaling issues with the Sergeant's 'Guided Aim' ability?

OR perhaps since there's really other ways to get more wounds on a target and they're already 30 points a wound it isn't an issue, or maybe they shouldn't HAVE that ability in the first place?

Or maybe they work fine as they are...

 Sentineil wrote:
Or maybe they work fine as they are...

Impossible. If that were true then people would be wasting their time being mad on the internet and we know they'd never do that.

Dont discount RG defensive buffs on an already annoyingly defensive unit.

For some, like guard, it will be super annoying to remove.

You might have some complaints if the RG doctrine activated from T1 but it does so in T2 with no AP bonus. Its pretty fair.

There is no Ravenguard issue


...slowly skulks back into the shadows....

 ClockworkZion wrote:

C4790M wrote:
Have you actually run the numbers on this? They really aren’t that scary. Notice how the don’t show average damage in the article, only the theoretical max

I feel like the community has been chasing paper tigers recently. Only looking at the most theoretically broken something can be but not at what is a more realistic output of damage that could be expected for given units, while ignoring tactics, terrain and generally any of the real world stuff that can get in the way (except when they're trying to show off why something is basically unkillable, then all that stuff suddenly matters again).

It's been pretty draining and I feel like the community is reenacting Chicken Little too much because it gets clicks on sites like Spikey Bits, rather than actually playing the game and seeing what does and doesn't actually work.

/thread

Nbolo wrote:
RG Eliminators are good for sure it I agree they aren't necessarily better than IF or IH versions though, plenty of scenarios where they are actually worse. Still very good at picking of lieutenants, farseers, librarians and what have you though.

From my (admittedly limited) experience the main strength of the Raven guard doesn't come from the super doctrine, or their chapter tactics, or their relics... it comes from the sheer number of shenanigans they can pull:
Master of Ambush means assault centurions with chaplain support in your face turn 1 for example.
Or strike from the shadows allowing infantry to appear when and where needed ( been on the receiving end of 10 auto bolt intercessors appearing in your back line, that'll mess up your plans let me tell you... Kiss goodbye to your objective holders).

Raven guard seem a lot less straight forward to use than IH or IF forces but on the upside in the hands of an experienced player you get a mobile, hard hitting force that can apply pressure where it needs to be and who can make themselves almost impossible to predict...

Master of Ambush and Strike from the Shadow is a way to bring units forward.
Coupled with say three Warsuits this can be quite deadly.
What units would you prefer here?

Wait.

Are people seriously saying that Raven Guard are too strong? Apparently being able to hurt a Knight CHARACTER by hitting it on 2+ and wounding it on 5+ with bolters is too much.

Raven Guard have a 57% win-rate, definitely on the high end of acceptable there and a tonne of factions have tanked in win-rate because of the improved rules for Space Marines. Ultramarines technically have a 49% win-rate so if you nerfed all Marines you might have to buff Ultras in some way or just nerf the best sub-factions even more, I doubt UM have a worse than 50% win-rate against non-SM. Ideally GW would fix all the balance issues in one fell swoop with a perfect CA19, but it'll probably take a couple more years of Errata and CA before things are ironed out.

Lists that don't have a focus on characters or that can put them in DS or into Transports should do well against RG. I don't think RG will have enough of a meta presence that it's something you'll have the luxury of worrying about, up your chances against IF and IH as much as you can at the cost of everything else if you want to do well in competitive environments. RG, IH and IF combined I might start looking for units other than Tank Commanders if I played AM or at least run them as Tallarn to avoid some of the shooting from IF.

Don't take Relics or WL traits for your Knights against RG if you have other things to spend CP on in your list or at least don't spread around the love to give all your Knight the ability to heroically intervene, the improvement you get is probably washed out by the +1 to hit/wound and you'll have less CP.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Nbolo wrote:
RG Eliminators are good for sure it I agree they aren't necessarily better than IF or IH versions though, plenty of scenarios where they are actually worse. Still very good at picking of lieutenants, farseers, librarians and what have you though.

From my (admittedly limited) experience the main strength of the Raven guard doesn't come from the super doctrine, or their chapter tactics, or their relics... it comes from the sheer number of shenanigans they can pull:
Master of Ambush means assault centurions with chaplain support in your face turn 1 for example.
Or strike from the shadows allowing infantry to appear when and where needed ( been on the receiving end of 10 auto bolt intercessors appearing in your back line, that'll mess up your plans let me tell you... Kiss goodbye to your objective holders).

Raven guard seem a lot less straight forward to use than IH or IF forces but on the upside in the hands of an experienced player you get a mobile, hard hitting force that can apply pressure where it needs to be and who can make themselves almost impossible to predict...

Master of Ambush and Strike from the Shadow is a way to bring units forward.
Coupled with say three Warsuits this can be quite deadly.
What units would you prefer here?

Totally agree, my current plan involves a chaplain, a squad of assault centurions using master of ambush and 2 - 3 warsuits set up in as threatening a way as possible, likely backed up on the second turn by a smash captain, inceptors and a strike from the shadows intercessor squad arriving from deep strike. Back this up with Intercessors, eliminators and some dreadnoughts for fire support. If there's room i'd like to add some jump infantry to (maybe a vanguard squad to take advantage of the infiltrators start).
It's a bit all in and maybe a bit risky, but honestly it's a lot of threats that need to be dealt with and fast.

Not sure it's competitive but personally i'm an aggressive player that likes to be proactive rather than reactive and always be on the offensive so it suits my play style...

 vict0988 wrote:
Raven Guard have a 57% win-rate, definitely on the high end of acceptable there and a tonne of factions have tanked in win-rate because of the improved rules for Space Marines. Ultramarines technically have a 49% win-rate so if you nerfed all Marines you might have to buff Ultras in some way or just nerf the best sub-factions even more, I doubt UM have a worse than 50% win-rate against non-SM. Ideally GW would fix all the balance issues in one fell swoop with a perfect CA19, but it'll probably take a couple more years of Errata and CA before things are ironed out.

Lists that don't have a focus on characters or that can put them in DS or into Transports should do well against RG. I don't think RG will have enough of a meta presence that it's something you'll have the luxury of worrying about, up your chances against IF and IH as much as you can at the cost of everything else if you want to do well in competitive environments. RG, IH and IF combined I might start looking for units other than Tank Commanders if I played AM or at least run them as Tallarn to avoid some of the shooting from IF.

Don't take Relics or WL traits for your Knights against RG if you have other things to spend CP on in your list or at least don't spread around the love to give all your Knight the ability to heroically intervene, the improvement you get is probably washed out by the +1 to hit/wound and you'll have less CP.

before the raven guard supplement came out a lot of army lists tended to be very character reliant, using captains for re-roll auras etc. Raven Guard counter this pretty hard. I expect we'll see lists adapting though.

I've played against RG once so my experience is limited, but their +1 to wound against characters doctrine and not needing LOS to snipe characters is a hard counter to my Craftworlds, where I need LOS to cast my psychic powers and even if I hide them, the high AP and damage from their weapons is enough to kill a Warlock a turn.

It's a very cool board control mechanic but it feels a little much when you take ignoring LOS into account.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I've played against RG once so my experience is limited, but their +1 to wound against characters doctrine and not needing LOS to snipe characters is a hard counter to my Craftworlds, where I need LOS to cast my psychic powers and even if I hide them, the high AP and damage from their weapons is enough to kill a Warlock a turn.

It's a very cool board control mechanic but it feels a little much when you take ignoring LOS into account.

Warlocks, IG commanders and other T3, <5 wound characters will be demolished by Eliminators - the fact Raven Guard do it well is a bonus. These characters are the preferred target unfortunately. S5 shots means that the target has to be T7 before the eliminators lose effect, which is only for big characters anyway.

Also, on a side note, Chaplains can give an additional +1 to wound rolls from a litany, so not only will the eliminator RG squad hit on 2+, but wound T8/9 on 3+ causing mortal wounds on 4+ with the mortis round to characters.

But isn't that a problem only for non marine players? non marine players already had their time this edition, when they armies were good. Maybe GW decided that it is time for marines to be good, and other armies to be bad. Maybe next edition the eldar and IG are going to be good again.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I've played against RG once so my experience is limited, but their +1 to wound against characters doctrine and not needing LOS to snipe characters is a hard counter to my Craftworlds, where I need LOS to cast my psychic powers and even if I hide them, the high AP and damage from their weapons is enough to kill a Warlock a turn.

It's a very cool board control mechanic but it feels a little much when you take ignoring LOS into account.

Warlocks, IG commanders and other T3, <5 wound characters will be demolished by Eliminators - the fact Raven Guard do it well is a bonus. These characters are the preferred target unfortunately. S5 shots means that the target has to be T7 before the eliminators lose effect, which is only for big characters anyway.

Also, on a side note, Chaplains can give an additional +1 to wound rolls from a litany, so not only will the eliminator RG squad hit on 2+, but wound T8/9 on 3+ causing mortal wounds on 4+ with the mortis round to characters.

Chaplains only work on the closest target though.

Then why not just drop a bit unit of centurions turn 2, alongside a chaplain, get them buffed by bolter drill, buffed by the chaplain, buffed from the RG trait and the doctrine, and then just unload 15 hits on avarge in to any character 12" away from the centurions?