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 AnomanderRake wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Yeah Marine shooting has to be more efficient because there's a lot less of it on the board.

You can get 8 Leman Russ tanks and hordes of troops in an AM list for example, as opposed to 2-3 tanks in an Astartes list.

Right? A leman russ battletank with lascannon that does 4.04 unsaved wounds to standard T7 vehicles costs only 164 points, while a las/autocannon predator that does 4.6 unsaved wounds costs an outrageous 180!

wait, that's really similar. Hang on...

So T8 and the extra Wound are free under your math?

I mean, no, but what I'm debunking here is "For the cost of 8 leman russ tanks you get 2-3 astartes tanks". That's clearly horsegak, you get MAYBE 8 leman russes for 7 astartes tanks at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I will say that Leman Russes ('specially the Commanders) are out of whack relative to Predators.

Whether Predators should be made cheaper or Russes more expensive, one of those need to happen.

I just don't like bad math.

Tank Commander w/ Catachan 184.

with 8.5 battlecannon shots and 1 lascannon shot, rerolling 1s with 3s to hit he gets 7.36 unsaved wounds. He's T8, W12, 3+.

Predator Iron hands in Devastator Doctrine with 4 lascannons, 190.

4 lascannon shots rerolling 1s to hit with 3s to hit, he gets 7.26 unsaved wounds. He's T7, W11, 3+ 6+++ and halves the result on the damage table, meaning he needs to be at 2 or 1 wound to suffer any penalty. FWIW he also overwatches on 5s.

The 6+++ makes the predator 1/12 more durable vs S9+, and 1/12 less durable vs S8/S7 since the T8 gives a 1/6 shift at those values.

If Leman Russ Commanders with Catachan are OP, then IH predators are pretty much exactly equivalently OP. I dunno what to say, they just seem VERY equivalent at this point if you want to factor in all the best buffs.

But it's weird, when people attack things, like say the TC's they always seem to want to consider everyone as playing catachans. But then when they defend things they generally say, for example, "Well I don't play IH so we shouldn't balance around IH." Catachan gives a SIGNIFICANT buff versus any other IG trait - 18% more damage on the battlecannon, a bigger shift than getting +1 to hit or wound for free. Since Cadians doesn't stack with Kill On Sight IIRC, only "Take Aim", no other trait gives any offensive bonus, and to get either the IH overwatch on 5s or the IH halved damage table, you need to take a separate trait for that.

Because other. armies. Don't. Get. Triple. Chapter. Tactics.

Ishagu should probably be ignored most of the time. He is just a troll. More than 4 tank commanders is just bad.

His example is wack since you can get the same amount of tanks as Marines. AM have better vehicles(except IH) though.

Sure you have more troops in a guard list but you can get a respectable number of models even as marines. Whirlwinds and stalkers are quite cheap after all and so are scouts.

 JNAProductions wrote:

The Newman wrote:
You've either done your math wrong or started with the wrong buffs. Leman Russes played correctly average 9 Battlecannon shots per turn with the order/trait/whatever that lets them reroll the number of Grinding Advance shots, that's 8.36 unsaved wounds on a standard T7 target.

How do you get 9?

Even rerolling both number of shots, 4.25 is the average of shots per d6, meaning you get 8.5 shots.
Hitting on a 3+ RR1s gets you 6.61 hits.
Wounding on 3+ gets you 4.41 wounds.
Saving on a 5+ gets you 2.94 unsaved.
D3 damage gets you 5.88 damage.

The local guy who plays guard said it should average to about 9 after a game where his average shot-count roll was 10.5, I took his word for it instead of doing the math. Also; I made an order-of-operations error figuring hitting on 4+ rerolling 1s and I figured damage on a LR Demolisher instead of the standard Battlecannon, because why wouldn't an IG player be using the better gun that's also cheaper?

On that note comparing to the Lascannon Predator is also silly when the Vindicator is a lot better for the points.

the_scotsman wrote:
...I mean, no, but what I'm debunking here is "For the cost of 8 leman russ tanks you get 2-3 astartes tanks". That's clearly horsegak, you get MAYBE 8 leman russes for 7 astartes tanks at this point...

So why are 8 Leman Russes fine and dandy under the Rule of Three but seven Predators aren't?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
...I mean, no, but what I'm debunking here is "For the cost of 8 leman russ tanks you get 2-3 astartes tanks". That's clearly horsegak, you get MAYBE 8 leman russes for 7 astartes tanks at this point...

So why are 8 Leman Russes fine and dandy under the Rule of Three but seven Predators aren't?

Probably because no one cares about it. Not really a good option so it is already self limited. Dont thibk people would care about 7 predators either. Rule of 3 isnt there to stop bad choices, its there to limit good ones running away.

Even if you couldnt take squadrons you could still take 7 as Cadian. BA can already take 6 without FW predators. I dont know how many UM can take but it should be a few as well.

the_scotsman wrote:

The Newman wrote:
You've either done your math wrong or started with the wrong buffs. Leman Russes played correctly average 9 Battlecannon shots per turn with the order/trait/whatever that lets them reroll the number of Grinding Advance shots, that's 8.36 unsaved wounds on a standard T7 target.

Because I knew if I included IH, RRs of 1, AP-4 lascannons in the comparison the marine player would cry foul and be like "b-but there's no guarantee he's IH and in Devastator!!!"

I just...took the unit being claimed by the person, and calculated the damage it would do and the points it would cost.

The claim that you can get like 8-9 tanks for guard and 2-3 for astartes is clearly just bunk.

No it isn't, Marine tanks don't come in vehicle squadrons so you can't legally take more than three of the one that's actually points efficient and damages T8+ on a resonable roll under the rules practically everyone uses. Between tank squadrons, command tanks, and Pask, Guard run out of points before they run out of slots to put Russes into.

The Newman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

The Newman wrote:
You've either done your math wrong or started with the wrong buffs. Leman Russes played correctly average 9 Battlecannon shots per turn with the order/trait/whatever that lets them reroll the number of Grinding Advance shots, that's 8.36 unsaved wounds on a standard T7 target.

Because I knew if I included IH, RRs of 1, AP-4 lascannons in the comparison the marine player would cry foul and be like "b-but there's no guarantee he's IH and in Devastator!!!"

I just...took the unit being claimed by the person, and calculated the damage it would do and the points it would cost.

The claim that you can get like 8-9 tanks for guard and 2-3 for astartes is clearly just bunk.

No it isn't, Marine tanks don't come in vehicle squadrons so you can't legally take more than three of the one that's actually points efficient and damages T8+ on a resonable roll under the rules practically everyone uses. Between tank squadrons, command tanks, and Pask, Guard run out of points before they run out of slots to put Russes into.

Clearly the claim here in dispute is "given infinite points, you can have more guard tanks than marine tanks."

Clearly the claim was not "Guard tanks are much cheaper than marine tanks, such that you can have 7 or 8 for the cost of 2-3 astartes vehicles."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

The Newman wrote:
You've either done your math wrong or started with the wrong buffs. Leman Russes played correctly average 9 Battlecannon shots per turn with the order/trait/whatever that lets them reroll the number of Grinding Advance shots, that's 8.36 unsaved wounds on a standard T7 target.

How do you get 9?

Even rerolling both number of shots, 4.25 is the average of shots per d6, meaning you get 8.5 shots.
Hitting on a 3+ RR1s gets you 6.61 hits.
Wounding on 3+ gets you 4.41 wounds.
Saving on a 5+ gets you 2.94 unsaved.
D3 damage gets you 5.88 damage.

The local guy who plays guard said it should average to about 9 after a game where his average shot-count roll was 10.5, I took his word for it instead of doing the math. Also; I made an order-of-operations error figuring hitting on 4+ rerolling 1s and I figured damage on a LR Demolisher instead of the standard Battlecannon, because why wouldn't an IG player be using the better gun that's also cheaper?

On that note comparing to the Lascannon Predator is also silly when the Vindicator is a lot better for the points.

As they should be, given that they are non-Fly tanks and there's a 12" (or a lot more in the case of the battlecannon, but boards are only so big) range gap.

Every inch of range is huge on a non-fly tank. there are a lot of fast chaff units that would love to tie up a tank trying to operate at 24" range.

The Newman wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
I'm gonna go with SM Lieutenants and captains. Stacking their auras is insane. Especially with the new wording of the Captains aura.

You say that, but do you play Marines? I always take the Master of the Chapter upgrade because Marine shooting has been garbage for all of 8th even with rerolling 1s to-hit and to-wound. You can't put enough quality guns in a list for the points to be able to afford to miss with any of them, that hasn't really changed.

Smash-captains though, that's another story. Particularly Raven Guard Smash-captains, even though they're hideously dependent on getting the first turn. They did go up quite a bit with the Thunder Hammer points increase, not sure yet if it's enough.

I play CSM. IW and WE specifically. So I get a little bit salty when SM get better rules than me. Lol. I can see where you're at though. That makes sense.

the_scotsman wrote:

The Newman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

The Newman wrote:
You've either done your math wrong or started with the wrong buffs. Leman Russes played correctly average 9 Battlecannon shots per turn with the order/trait/whatever that lets them reroll the number of Grinding Advance shots, that's 8.36 unsaved wounds on a standard T7 target.

Because I knew if I included IH, RRs of 1, AP-4 lascannons in the comparison the marine player would cry foul and be like "b-but there's no guarantee he's IH and in Devastator!!!"

I just...took the unit being claimed by the person, and calculated the damage it would do and the points it would cost.

The claim that you can get like 8-9 tanks for guard and 2-3 for astartes is clearly just bunk.

No it isn't, Marine tanks don't come in vehicle squadrons so you can't legally take more than three of the one that's actually points efficient and damages T8+ on a resonable roll under the rules practically everyone uses. Between tank squadrons, command tanks, and Pask, Guard run out of points before they run out of slots to put Russes into.

Clearly the claim here in dispute is "given infinite points, you can have more guard tanks than marine tanks."

Clearly the claim was not "Guard tanks are much cheaper than marine tanks, such that you can have 7 or 8 for the cost of 2-3 astartes vehicles."

"Guard run out of points before they run out of slots"

"Clearly the claim here in dispute is 'given infinite points'"

Somebody deserves a facepalm here, but I don't think it's me.

Ohh look at that the SM players state nothing is underpriced and all is well...in the world... Surprise surprise... *Looks at CSM costing 1 PPM and fewer rules.. shakes head laughs and moves on*

From an Eldar perspective -

CHE Needs an increase for sure.
Eldrad might be 5-10 points too cheap.

I think the WS is reasonably priced considering I usualy kit mine out so it clocks in higher than bare bones..

Tactical Marines are hardly undercosted just because CSM are in a bad position.

Riptides. If the were fifty more I'd still take them.

For the DA ......How dare you even ask we are awful. Deathwing should e 3w . But if I had to point out undercoated.... The Dark talon may be a little good maybe 10-15 pts max

totally misread the thread title...

 Argive wrote:
Ohh look at that the SM players state nothing is underpriced and all is well...in the world... Surprise surprise... *Looks at CSM costing 1 PPM and fewer rules.. shakes head laughs and moves on*

[Reviews thread]

[Sees Azriel, Shrike, Dante, Leviathin and Contemptor Mortis dreads, Aggressors, Centurions, and Vindicators submitted as possibly undercosted.]

Riiiiight.[/Dr. Evil]

Well it should be noted a lot of people seem to b putting overcoated units but that's my opinion

Draigo and the NDK GM seem criminaly costed comparing to other characters and special characters. A GM NDK , has better stats all around then a normal NDK, and the normal NDK costs more or less the same points.

 chimeara wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
I'm gonna go with SM Lieutenants and captains. Stacking their auras is insane. Especially with the new wording of the Captains aura.

You say that, but do you play Marines? I always take the Master of the Chapter upgrade because Marine shooting has been garbage for all of 8th even with rerolling 1s to-hit and to-wound. You can't put enough quality guns in a list for the points to be able to afford to miss with any of them, that hasn't really changed.

Smash-captains though, that's another story. Particularly Raven Guard Smash-captains, even though they're hideously dependent on getting the first turn. They did go up quite a bit with the Thunder Hammer points increase, not sure yet if it's enough.

I play CSM. IW and WE specifically. So I get a little bit salty when SM get better rules than me. Lol. I can see where you're at though. That makes sense.

So you do play Marines.

Pre-2.0-Codex I'd have said CSM made up for lacking Lieutenants with better strats and psychic powers and more efficient equipment. Post-2.0-Codex I can't say that anymore. Especially since the CSM 2.0 codex was a bad joke.

 captain collius wrote:
Riptides. If the were fifty more I'd still take them.

For the DA ......How dare you even ask we are awful. Deathwing should e 3w . But if I had to point out undercoated.... The Dark talon may be a little good maybe 10-15 pts max

I would agree if Alitoc flyers weren't a thing. Or railweapons worked at all.

I think Commanders without the 0-1 per detachment would be undercosted but given the harsh restrictions they are a PITA to leverage let alone become a problem.

Ice_can wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Riptides. If the were fifty more I'd still take them.

For the DA ......How dare you even ask we are awful. Deathwing should e 3w . But if I had to point out undercoated.... The Dark talon may be a little good maybe 10-15 pts max

I would agree if Alitoc flyers weren't a thing. Or railweapons worked at all.

I think Commanders without the 0-1 per detachment would be undercosted but given the harsh restrictions they are a PITA to leverage let alone become a problem.

To be fair the first Riptide should have a point increase. Only if you take more than one is the price appropriate.

Dahyak Grekh. He isn't flashy and is more or less a single use throw away unit, but I am yet to play a game without him earning his points back without firing a shot. Place him as a deep strike denial bubble or hold him in reserve it doesn't matter the traps will go off regardless, the traps go off at the end of your opponents movement phase so going second doesn't matter either, once his traps are spent he can either camp a backfield object or continue being a denial bubble. At 20 pts he is a bargain even if he kinda sucks at combat.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Of the stuff I use in my Eldar force and CSM I can't think of many units that need a price increase.

I don't play Ynnari, and I don't have any Eldar flyers, so I don't even know what they cost. There are loads of Eldar things which are a bit too pricey, but I can't think of any where I think "hell yeah, this is a bargain, it's too good not to take!". Reapers and Spears got points nerfed due to Ynnari and are still carrying that baggage.

On the CSM side of things, I'd argue that the Warp Smith is an absolute steal, but he doesn't do much...so just kinda flies under the radar as a solid character. I play Renegades w/ Nurgle trait. I'd say plaguebearers will get a bump which I'll suffer from (since I just summon them as simple demons with no characters/buffs/auras/abilities from the Death Guard or Daemons book). The CSM Leviathan isn't anywhere near the power of the loyalist one, so at 300+ points they're almost too expensive. CSM have a 5+ invuln to shooting, no ability to heal it other than eating infantry, and we have none of the mega-aura or mega-discipline buffs to ours. Mine get shot off the table easily every time they show up. If anything I find the Leviathan to be too much to invest in for a CSM/Renegades army.

Again I don't own everything in the CSM book, but I have a hard time thinking of anything that's the mega-bargain when I choose it.

Daemon Prince with Wings maybe? TS and DG Princes are better I think but the vanilla one in CSM is a solid choice. Do you own any Lord Discordants on Helstalkers? They're very popular at tournaments and I feel like you always see 3 in any list with CSM that tops an event.

I think a Daemon Prince with Wings in the bog standard CSM book is about correct at 180 points. They don't have the superb addition of Death Guard or Thousand Sons, and don't have any relics that matter. However, it does highlight how horrific my Phoenix Lords are by comparison (with Asurmen being essentially garbage at around 8-9 points less than a winged Daemon Prince). I do think DG and TS Daemon Princes should pay a slight boost for their abilities because they're huge and make them into far stronger units.

If GW increased the points cost of impulsors 5-10 points or so I'd not object. they're price is downright cheap and the only reason I don't agree that they're a bit too cheap is they only can carry 6 troops and can't carry grav stuff so their utility is pretty situational.

Winged give tyrants: they are highly mobile, good at shooting, good at psy, vert good in assault and quite resilient. They should cost 20 more. They are a no brainier, why wouldn't you take some ?
I like the unit, but about 215 would be better suited I think.
They are basically good at excellent in every single phase of the game and give fearless to their troops.

Flying Hive Tyrants are still...borderline obnoxious. Those are a literal fun-sink every time I play against them. "Oh you're just...better at everything? In every phase? For cheaper? That's cool..."

Iron Father Feirros. He just came out and got a nerf immediately and I STILL think he needs to be boosted to 130 or 150 for what he brings to the army.

Well although I use the hellforged version the relic Cerberus should be dropped to the cost of the hellforged Cerberus. They both have basically the same stats except hellforged has bs 2 vs the relics bs 3. So why is the relic Cerberus 50 points higher? Actually both should cost less but be the same price.

Oh, that's easy.

If my opponent is using it, then it needs an increase.
If I'm using it, then no increase required (a decrease though might definitely be in order)

ccs wrote:
Oh, that's easy.

If my opponent is using it, then it needs an increase.
If I'm using it, then no increase required (a decrease though might definitely be in order)

DakkaDakka balance arguments in a nutshell

Plagueburst Crawlers are still insanely good for their price and one of the top tier choices for DG. They could raise the points by 20-30 and they would still be an excellent choice

Sternguard with a SI Bolter are probably a point light.