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The wraith knight needs to pay for its sins in 6th and 7th ed just like the Heldrake.

Never played those editions.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
The wraith knight needs to pay for its sins in 6th and 7th ed just like the Heldrake.

That's ridiculous.

pm713 wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
The wraith knight needs to pay for its sins in 6th and 7th ed just like the Heldrake.

That's ridiculous.

And he knows it's ridiculous, hence the Troll in his name and profile pic. But he has a point. WKs (and Windriders while we are at it) were WAAAAYYY over nerfed for 8E because of their OP-ness in 7E. I liked most of the changes, but the overcosting on top of it was too much, as was removing WRs as Troops
It was an over correction pure and simple and GW STILL hasn't fixed it despite several CA changes to both.

At this point, I feel the WK is at a fair price point, but needs some buffs. T9, 30Ws and Spirit stones would make the WK compare to IKs in the same manner as WLs compare to Dreadnoughts.

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as much as "higher thoughness than imperium equivalent" fits with the wraiths, i'd much rather make the WK more nimble than IKs.

Give it a 5++ "Dodge" save.
Shield makes it go to a 4++.
Give it 16" movement base.
Make the guns better.
If going Sword and Board, he gets +1 attack.
Make the normal vehicle upgrade buyable.

Thats what i'd like to see it become.

But ideally i'd like Wks to get the same stuff as IKs (relics, traits, stratagems).
The fact that a gallant can charge me turn one but a wraithknight cant is just stupid imo.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
as much as "higher thoughness than imperium equivalent" fits with the wraiths, i'd much rather make the WK more nimble than IKs.

Give it a 5++ "Dodge" save.
Shield makes it go to a 4++.
Give it 16" movement base.
Make the guns better.
If going Sword and Board, he gets +1 attack.
Make the normal vehicle upgrade buyable.

Thats what i'd like to see it become.

But ideally i'd like Wks to get the same stuff as IKs (relics, traits, stratagems).
The fact that a gallant can charge me turn one but a wraithknight cant is just stupid imo.

The increased Move, +1Atk for Sword and better guns are all great ideas. But I'll never agree that the WK should have a natural 5++. Even if you do that and make the Shield 4++, what is even the purpose of the shield at that point, unless you make the shield free and/or allow it to be taken with 2 HWCs.
Or rather, if you still can't take the shield with 2 HWCs, having a 4++ will always be preferable, especially if you make the Suncannon better. So...basically the same issue as now, just a smidge more durable.

That's why T9 and Spirit stones, IMO is the most appropriate option. It gives a marginal durability increase without being a carbon copy of other units, while still being compatible with the 5++ shield.
I could see it have a 6++ with Spirit Stones though.

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
as much as "higher thoughness than imperium equivalent" fits with the wraiths, i'd much rather make the WK more nimble than IKs.

Give it a 5++ "Dodge" save.
Shield makes it go to a 4++.
Give it 16" movement base.
Make the guns better.
If going Sword and Board, he gets +1 attack.
Make the normal vehicle upgrade buyable.

Thats what i'd like to see it become.

But ideally i'd like Wks to get the same stuff as IKs (relics, traits, stratagems).
The fact that a gallant can charge me turn one but a wraithknight cant is just stupid imo.

I think all those things would be too much. I dont want the WK to be anotger super efficient auto include CHE unit.

I do like the idea of giving him "thruster & vextored engines" even though he doesnt fly.. and bigger move... bit armored core ish. Thats awesome. Lol prlt up the board to dice some stuff or lumber back and dakka with fire twice. 2 volleys of hwc sounds potent...

 Galef wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Give the Wraithknight double shots from all ranged weapons and a built-in 5++ (scattershield upgrades it to a 4++) and it'd probably be more helpful than T9.

Shoot twice if it moves half or less isn't something I thought of and I think could be a good solution to it's damage output issue.
I still don't like the idea of it having a stock 5++. It's TOO much like it's trying to be an Imperial Knight. Which is why I think T9 and spirit stones are the way to go. They add something like shoot twice and the WK is back in business

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Have you considered shoot twice if it's got 2 ranged weapons and T9 5++ if it's got the sword and shield?

I thought I was suggesting changing the profile of the Wraithcannon and the Suncannon to 2x the shots rather than writing a special rule to give the unit double shots...

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I thought I was suggesting changing the profile of the Wraithcannon and the Suncannon to 2x the shots rather than writing a special rule to give the unit double shots...

I could get on board with that. It doesn't matter to me really as long as the effect is the same.

 Argive wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I thought I was suggesting changing the profile of the Wraithcannon and the Suncannon to 2x the shots rather than writing a special rule to give the unit double shots...

I could get on board with that. It doesn't matter to me really as long as the effect is the same.

Either way works. I was just thinking that an Errata to give them an ability to shoot twice would be easier than reprinting their Datasheet (although my original suggestion would require this anyway, so why not?)

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 Galef wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I thought I was suggesting changing the profile of the Wraithcannon and the Suncannon to 2x the shots rather than writing a special rule to give the unit double shots...

I could get on board with that. It doesn't matter to me really as long as the effect is the same.

Either way works. I was just thinking that an Errata to give them an ability to shoot twice would be easier than reprinting their Datasheet (although my original suggestion would require this anyway, so why not?)

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Wouldn't adding an ability to the datasheet require just as much reprinting of the datasheet (but with more ink)?

No, see the Bolter Discipline rule that was added long before the Codex added it to Marine datasheets.
You just say "X gains the following ability:..." in a FAQ/Errata

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The FAQ would read:

"change the weapon profile of this HWC to Assult 8 "
"change the weapon profile of Suncannon to Heavy 4D6"

Or

Add the following to the datasheet: "This model can fire HWC & Sun cannon twice in its shooting phase if it is equipped with them"

Alternatively: "This model can fire all of its weapons twice"

Everything achieve the same result. But the third means you can also fire its Star canons/scat lazors twice also so its an extra buff which im not opposed to..

 Argive wrote:
The FAQ would read:

"change the weapon profile of this HWC to Assult 8 "
"change the weapon profile of Suncannon to Heavy 4D6"

Or

Add the following to the datasheet: "This model can fire HWC & Sun cannon twice in its shooting phase if it is equipped with them"

Alternatively: "This model can fire all of its weapons twice"

Everything achieve the same result. But the third means you can also fire its Star canons/scat lazors twice also so its an extra buff which im not opposed to..

Agreed. There are so many ways to achieve a decent damage output for the WK, yet GW seems to not care.

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GW doesn't care about old popular models so they gave them no love this edition.
Heck they sold so many Space Marines in the past they just decided to slap new better Space Marines on top of them. So they could re-sell space marines to all the space marine players.

 Elbows wrote:
Not even referencing the Wraithknight, a lot more things should be Toughness, 9-10-11, etc. And a handful of weapons should be as well.

GW made a big deal about a limitless stat-line...and then didn't use it. If you want to make a melta or fusion gun not look like complete garbage vs, Plasma it's as simple as making it Strength 9, etc. There's a lot of room in the game, and GW oddly kind of stuck to its old stats for waaaaaay too many things without realizing what a poor impact it would have on the new evolution of the game.

Bump some things to Toughness 9, then move Lascannons and Melta to Strength 10 even, so they have an absolute place at the table vs. almost any vehicles/units. Plasma can stay at 7/8 and it would balance out, etc.

Back on topic, yeah the Wraithknight is still in a terrible spot despite a points reduction. Almost any help would be neat to see them on the table.

You hit the nail on the "design" head there. GW wanted an "unlimited" stat line but then didn't use. They altered the To-Wound chart.. then never used it.

Things like WK, Land Raider, the Super Heavies (Knights have jumped the shark these days to the point I don't even want to bring them up) should be in the 10+ T range. The Killer Weapons should have been adjusted UP. Space marines should have likely been T5 (would have been fluffy), light vehicles should have been T6/7. Carnifexes should have been upped as well to be the "tanks" of the nids and rather far tougher than a Tyrant because the Fexes are supposed to be utter tanks while the Tyrant is an HQ. Never understood the UBERALLES FLYRANTS as being rational design wise. A single fex is more than a match for several Leman Russ tanks.

GW got a great idea (unlimited statlines) and then did nothing except convert down (rounded down) the AV to T conversion and slapped some extra wounds here and there.

That lack of Unlimited Stat Line is perhaps one of the largest failure points of the 8th edition design as much of 8th works very well once you start adding in the unlimited stat line. I've never mentioned it before because I thought I was the only person in the world who noticed.

IMO they should be stretching the stat lines everywhere.

Marines should got to S T 5, humans stay at 3 and leave 4 for things in between (catachans, Orks etc).

The change to the damage comparison makes this easily possible.

Eldar Walkers should have better tough than imperial as wraithbone is considered one of the hardest substances in the galaxy.

In practical terms strength 35 seems to be the current upper limit.

I wouldn't mind a rule where it goes:

Sx2 vs tough = 2+ wound
Sx3 vs tough= automatic wound


Just to differentiate the uber weapons ( it still means a guardsman is only auto wounded by s9+).

If you wanted to go back to the old days of not being able to wound at all, you could say that

Tx3 vs str= can't wound


So t9 couldn't be hurt by s3.

You do realize according to gw going from t8 to t9 is worth about 390 points (the difference between base baneblade and fellblade as of ca19) right?

That's sarcasm btw.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
You do realize according to gw going from t8 to t9 is worth about 390 points (the difference between base baneblade and fellblade as of ca19) right?

That's sarcasm btw.

Indeed but I think it underlines a very valid point, even as sarcasm.

GW is point costing and developing based on the 3-7th statline. The devs are not even thinking properly in terms of the changes they made to 8th so points costs are ridiculous in both directions.

BTW the WK was NOT op in 6th and pre-codex in 7th. It was the change from Monstrous Creature to Gargantuan in the 7th codex that changed it into it's OP form. Monst could still be poisoned 4+ while gargantuan it is 6+. Gargantuan also got other bonuses such as FNP, etc. That added to the +1 toughness between 6th codex and 7th made a difference because under the old statline spread that +1 toughness really altered the dynamic. It meant that the most powerful weapons in the game were 50/50 to wound and now it had 2+ and FNP thanks to being gargantuan monst creature.

The sin of the windriders was also purely the 7th codex. They got 3+ armor which was WRONG and they got 3/3 heavy weapons which again is wrong as Troops. 3/3 Heavy = Heavy support. 3+ sv = elites. It was a broken design to sell windrider models and recoup the dev costs.

The nerf the other way is because they are trying to sell OTHER models. Like the dark reapers who were super suck for about 3 editions so they buffed the hell out of em to move FailCast Dark Reapers.


So the sarcarsm hides the truth. GW isn't even thinking and developing in terms of 8th editions CORE design concept changes. They are point costing based on 7th edition and nerfing buffing in the same way. They are mishandling all the good things about 8th and essentially screwing it up. It is already super crazy but it keeps getting crazier because they are ignoring the core design concepts of 8th. So nothing they do actually works as intended because they are not even in the right frame of mind for the edition. This goes for EVERYTHING including stratagems and the sundry new special rules being duct-taped onto the armies to "balance" them which is just throwing things off even more.

If they deleted all of 8th and started 8th over again and actually paid attention to the new design direction 8th actually would work. That means making rational Key-Wording, limited Strategems (they were supposed to be special), limited special rules, and use of the "unlimited-statline" to rebalance the entire game on a rational level and points costing things based on the CURRENT rules, not previous editions and performance there of.

I still play more 7th because it is MORE balanced than 8th in practical terms. It also requires fewer supplements to be CURRENT and PLAY. I mean right now you need a library on wheels to have it all covered and since they keep janking with points it is an ever moving target. Older books are obsoleted before they even reach shelves to sell at top dollar. 8th is usually faster to play so I play it at the FLGS because of time constraints but for GarageHammer with friends and family its 7th all the way. In fact we've back ported some of 8th's rational things into 7th and they work fine. Things like converting BS to a TO HIT Number... that was smart and backports just fine. For streamlining we tried the fixed WS rather than the comparative method and it also worked nicely for speeding up game play. It didn't largely impact balance at 7th edition rules and points levels.