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How do you imagine Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and Warp Spiders defend themselves in close combat? Just put their ranged weapons at their backs and use martial arts and their sweet puny fists?

I know Aspect Warriors are speciealists at what they do, but doesn't it seem strange, that they have no close combat weapon whatsoever? Even guardsmen have knives and bayonets.

If you could make up some lore, would you give them some kind of close combat weapon? If yes, what weapon would you give them?

I would imagine them carrying a shuriken pistol as a sidearm. Although Warp Spiders probably defend themselves by jumping away as quickly as possible.

All models as per the rules are assumed to have a default close combat weapon at their S and 0 AP, probably representing martial arts and/or a knife of some sort.

The new Fire Dragon Exarch power gives its close combat weapons increased AP and Damage...except the Fire Dragon Exarch has no close combat weapons except this default. So as the power name suggests, the Fire Dragon Exarch is using its power to give its punches supernatural penetration and power.

You've got to Remember that the aspects aren't "the temple of rocket launchers" or the "temple of sneaking and stabbing".

They are conceptual aspects of khaine.

Dark reapers represent him as the destroyer and manifest it at range with heavy weaponry. But there are many ways to interpret the destroyer, and rockets is only one very narrow one.

So their fighting in melee will also be in the same destroyer concept, which may mean concentrated heavy strikes with thick bladed cleavers or something.

If youve seen avatar the last air bender, they based each bending style on a real martial art to evoke the theme of the element.

Every part of an aspect's fighting style will be emulation of the concept of khaine they follow.

I imagine that scorpions shoot their pistols entirely differently to banshees for example.

Hellebore wrote:
You've got to Remember that the aspects aren't "the temple of rocket launchers" or the "temple of sneaking and stabbing".

They are conceptual aspects of khaine.

Dark reapers represent him as the destroyer and manifest it at range with heavy weaponry. But there are many ways to interpret the destroyer, and rockets is only one very narrow one.

So their fighting in melee will also be in the same destroyer concept, which may mean concentrated heavy strikes with thick bladed cleavers or something.

If youve seen avatar the last air bender, they based each bending style on a real martial art to evoke the theme of the element.

Every part of an aspect's fighting style will be emulation of the concept of khaine they follow.

I imagine that scorpions shoot their pistols entirely differently to banshees for example.

I completely agree. So I'd prefer that they got aspect-specific close combat weapons like the Howling Banshees. I'd very much listen if you have further suggestions to which close combat weapons they might have. Also, a shame that they don't update Striking Scorpions to have an alien Aeldari close combat weapon instead of the human weapon from 2nd edition...

I don't think there are several ways to shoot a pistol, at least not efficiently

 godardc wrote:
I don't think there are several ways to shoot a pistol, at least not efficiently

John wick disagrees.... But sure, in a game with chainsaw swords, shooting pistols gangster style is not efficient :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chaospling wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
You've got to Remember that the aspects aren't "the temple of rocket launchers" or the "temple of sneaking and stabbing".

They are conceptual aspects of khaine.

Dark reapers represent him as the destroyer and manifest it at range with heavy weaponry. But there are many ways to interpret the destroyer, and rockets is only one very narrow one.

So their fighting in melee will also be in the same destroyer concept, which may mean concentrated heavy strikes with thick bladed cleavers or something.

If youve seen avatar the last air bender, they based each bending style on a real martial art to evoke the theme of the element.

Every part of an aspect's fighting style will be emulation of the concept of khaine they follow.

I imagine that scorpions shoot their pistols entirely differently to banshees for example.

I completely agree. So I'd prefer that they got aspect-specific close combat weapons like the Howling Banshees. I'd very much listen if you have further suggestions to which close combat weapons they might have. Also, a shame that they don't update Striking Scorpions to have an alien Aeldari close combat weapon instead of the human weapon from 2nd edition...

Well I know it has been mentioned in canon sources that Avengers carry shuriken on them selves to use in melee. That would be a very interesting melee fighting style.


Scorpion chainswords are still pretty different as they must be pretty silent to be usable by a stealth unit. I imagine they use sonic dampers so they make no noise.

Here are non Canon ideas:

Reapers: heavy khopesh blades, evoking the maugetar's blade, methodical powerful blows, head and shoulder focused
Dragons: iron fist style unarmed fighting, using reinforced gauntlets and Ki channeling to punch super hard (this is actually historically how dragon exarchs could fight - burning first), mighty rib shattering strikes
Warp spiders: short curved punch daggers designed for fast multi strikes (inspired by the power blades of the exarch), striking like a spider bite
Swooping hawks: sabre/scimitar style in line with baharoth. Used in fly by slashes, hobbling the enemy as they fly by

Banshee pistols: suppressing fire, wide spraying like a scream of blades
Scorpion pistols: controlled burst fire, pinpoint head shots, close range sniper, back of the head from the shadows John wick style

And that is how your pistol fighting styles can differ

I recall in previous editions WS exarch could take hand to hand blades. So I'd assume he'd fight a bit in melee as the rest of the squad jump to safety.

IIRC the Avengers carrying shurikens thing is on the Craftworld. Based on art I'd say they have actual swords for close combat which makes sense to me.

Thanks Hellebore and others, this is really useful. Please share if you have additional ideas for close combat weapons which would fit these Aspect Warriors.

I hope it's okay that I use your ideas in alternative ruleset.

One key thing to keep in mind it's that the Aspects are just Martial arts or Gung Fu 40k equivalent.

According to lore ( from novels mostly) they train first the poses/stances then with the armour and finally with their weapons and it's in this third step when they come to learn the whole meaning and purpouse of everything as it suddenly bring meaning to those moves as the way to reload the weapon faster adn properly, hit with a melee weapon and follow with a pistol shooting when you are being attacked from behind (Striking scorpions or Banshees as example).

So i believe the shooting aspects have this kind of moves built in their training Dark reapers can make a sweaping blow with the launcher to push back the enemy followed with a quick reposition to finish it with a point blank shoot or Swooping Hawks can do a backward kick powered with their wings to answer with a laser fusilade (similar to how Falco in marvel movies fight)

In the tabletop this kind of moves aren't properly represented with rules but that's how i imagine them resolving some of those situations.

I don't understand. What do you mean by things like "A rocket launcher isn't a close combat weapon"? Have you tried rocket jumping to get in a better shooting position?

The aspect of khaine each warrior Shrine represents is a perfect opportunity to create variation amongst the aspect units.

Some dark reaper shrines might consider shuriken Cannons to be the best type of destroyer representative.

Some may decide that new recruits start with A grenade launcher, experienced students go to a rocket launcher and only masters use shuriken cannons (in emulation of maugan ra clearly deciding that the shuriken cannon is the best destroyer weapon).

There is so much potential diversity WITHIN shrines, before you ever have to invent wholly new ones.

Butt of their weapon, applied at speed to vital parts of their opponent. Ugly, desperate, up close fighting.

Each of them would fight very, very differently. But the results of their combat prowess boils down to the same: S:user AP0.

Fire Dragons will probably unleash their fury in savage blows in hand-to-hand. Think 'Fire Nation' fighting styles from Avatar.

Dark Reapers will probably fight with cold, deliberate strikes. None of the fury, but no less deadly. Dispasionate doesn't mean half-hearted.

Warp Spiders are likely to be a more "Air Nation"-like. Flowing attacks, with the opponent never knowing whether they're coming and going.

Mostly, they probably have at least knives. They're Aspects of Khaine, not Aspects of Specific Weapons. But regardless of weapon, even if they each had the same H2H weapons, they'd probably each fight quite differently.

It would be neat if the various Aspects had a choice of weaponry like their Exarchs.

I'd love to see all-ShurikenCannon Reaper squads, and all-powerglave Banshees, but indiviudal Banshees taking an Executioner feels wrong. And one Reaper taking a Cannon and another taking a Launcher from the same shrine also feels wrong to me.

Bharring wrote:
I'd love to see all-ShurikenCannon Reaper squads, and all-powerglave Banshees, but indiviudal Banshees taking an Executioner feels wrong. And one Reaper taking a Cannon and another taking a Launcher from the same shrine also feels wrong to me.

It comes down to what a shrine looks like. Gav Thorpe seems to think a shrine is 1 exarch and their student squad.

Originally a shrine was a massive training and barracks complex, with many students, gear and vehicles. Multiple exarchs. They were more akin to a fortress monastery than anything else.

This is How I see shrines. I'm sure there are small dinky ones around, but most are Shaolin temple sized, hundreds/thousands of students all training in unison.

Each shrine holds all the equipment they need and allows them to conduct war independently if they wish.

There are many exarchs, each with their own slightly different take on what their means. Each teaches their own school of thought and their students train in the fighting and equipment of that school.

Therw will be shrine lords, the oldest exarchs who have tried the path for hundreds or thousands of years. They will be the holders of the sacred rites, and leaders of the Shrine.

They will join the councils of war to contribute their vast expertise to war strategy.

Within such a shrine you would have many different expressions of the aspect all vetted and approved by the shrine lords. Any exarch whose school is unforgivablly divergent would be expelled by the shrine lords, left to travel the galaxy shrineless or start their own. It is this way that new aspects are created.

Example shrine composition

Shrine of Altath's Epiphany (striking scorpions)

Command structure
Shrine lords {3 in a triumvirate) ancient and powerful. These are Phoenix Lord lite

Associated warlocks (those who return to this shrine for their helmets - they are honoured alumni)


Menshad korum - visiting professor positions that are only temporary as the menshad moves through their endless hunt

Exarchs of the self - devoted to improving their own embodiment of the striking scorpions

Exarchs of the blade - armoury specialists, equipping and maintaining the ritual gear of the shrine

Exarchs orlf the way - teaching exarchs, squad leaders


Aspect initiates - newly joined, less skilled in the esoteric styles of the shrine (basic weapons, no special rulesl

Aspect.warriors - have reached a level of mastery within the aspect, fully competent

Aspect veterans - those who return to the path, but have yet to be lost in it (in danger of being trapped, very skilled, lots of abilities, don't go to battle with an exarch to avoid temptation)

Schools
Each member of the Shrine subscribes to a school or Way of the scorpion. The teaching streams are split based on those Ways the shrine endorses. The endorsement can change as leadership changes.

School of stalking death
Better infiltrators, rely on modified potent mandilblasters

School of the decisive strike
Carry chainklaives, train in heavy blows for maximum Lethality

School of the thousand stings
Emphasises fast strikes and gun Fu - dual chainblades and shuriken gauntlets


Armoury

Falcons
Waveserpents
Autonomous weapon pods
Lightblades (venom)

The honoured dead
Those souls who yearn to fight even in death

Wraith blades
Ghost assassin's
Ghost destroyers

Elder exarchs h wraithlorda
Equipped with massive shrine weapons

Remember that the first "Shrine" and "Exarch" had "students" that *vastly* differred from eachother.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for wage war on it's own, I'm not with you on that. Shrines are about absurd specialization. Fire Dragons are about bringing the heat and fury of Khaine to bring down even the sturdiest foes. A powerful, useful role and kit. But not one intended to win wars on it's own. Each Shrine is specialized to the point that they *shouldn't* be able to wage war on their own. They should ride to war seperately, in that they decide whether to join a Warhost independent of what any "higher ups" say - but that's not the same as forming their own Warhost.

There are no Aspects such that, even with substantial variation, they could handle a reasonable engagement against a reasonably-threatening foe. Dire Avengers lack the heavy support or speed. Swooping Hawks, lack the weight and punch. Fire Dragons lack the speed and weight. They are each an aspect of Khaine, walking *a* Path of War. No one aspect - or path - would be whole without the others.

I could see Shrines owning vehciles and such. But Wraiths? No chance. First, what do the Wraiths have to do with a Shrine? Second, where do the bonesingers and spirit seers come from? Third, the Honored Dead belong to the Craftworld and/or noble houses - not to Shrines.

Aspects aren't cultures unto themselves. They're extreme obsession with a single aspect or path. They're a focus on one thing to the exclusion of all else. It's not simply a seperate sub-craftworld culture; the Eldar reside there specificly to eschew all such things.

Yeah, gotta say Hellebore's version is....so far off the Eldar lore mark I can't agree with anything said there.

Thank goodness it's not just me.

While I don't see the Shrines having wraith constructs of their own or vehicles of their own (unless a vehicular Aspect like the Crimson Hunters or Shining Spears), I also don't see them as Gav Thorpe's small scale Cobra Kai neighborhood dojo. I see them more like Shaolin temple or like the ancient Egyptian temple complexes.

 Elbows wrote:
Yeah, gotta say Hellebore's version is....so far off the Eldar lore mark I can't agree with anything said there.

pm713 wrote:
Thank goodness it's not just me.

If you go back and read the original 1st and 2nd background, you'll find shrines described far more like I describe, although no wraith constructs were mentioned iirc. Specifically armouries and vehicles.

@bharring, your first line about varied students is at odds with your later comment about being too specialised to do anything by themselves.

Also, aspects are specifically NOT obsessed with their path, exarchs are. Aspect warriors are focused on a path in the same way any other Eldar is focused on their path, only extracts and equivalents like farseers are obsessed.


As for not being able to wage war on their own - GW spent decades specialising their marine armies to be like this and don't seem to have a problem. Harlequins are only marginally more varied than aspect warriors.and they get their own codex.

Remembering that aspects get wave.seprents and falcons as standard, which come with all the anti tank options you need.


And I'm not claiming they would wage ANY war on their own, in the same way catachans don't, or Elysian drop troopers don't.

There is plenty of background of Phoenix lords leading armies of their students to fight secret wars, and not so secret wars.


Everything I wrote is simply connecting existing information together.

If I were to take the current Eldar army list and construct an army around one aspect, I'd have justification for including the following:

Striking scorpions
Autarch (still connected to the Shrine through ritual gear)
Karandras
Warlocks (return to their shrine to partake in the ritual and claim their helmets) background says they are still connected to their shrines
Wave serpents
Falcons
Wraithlords (many instances of background describing them with exarch souls within)
Wraithguard (many souls of Eldar dying whilst in their aspect is not a stretch at all and see above) they used to ONLY be inhabited by aspect warriors, making the kinship connection to their original shrine logically stronger
Also, the original Eldar robots are stealth ghost etc, so I thought it only sensible that, specifically for this example using scorpions, it made sense that they were part of the contingent

That's not a huge army, but its not much different to the Harlequins

Plus, even without making up new fighting styles, the scorpion aspect already includes training for biting blades, claws and dual chainblades. That's potentially 4 different types of aspect squad built from the weapons their exarchs already possess.

As for the "schools" concept, that was simply a way to more clearly describe how an aspect is a philosophical concept, not a weapon choice. That truth has been around since 1st ed and hasn't changed and is amply highlighted by the differences in equipment between lords, exarchs and warriors, despite onstensibly representing the same aspect of.khaine.


So, basically, I don t see anything i said that is a retcon or wrong, it's all just connecting the background components together that already exist.

My one real speculation is the creation of new aspects. We know they happen, but not how. My supposition is that they evolve out of existing ones where an exarchs personal interpretation is a little too off their original aspect and their continued presence creates disharmony. Ritual expulsion being the way that is solved.

Under that supposition, I could see the warp.spiders evolving out of the swooping hawks quite easily, given that they were not one of the original asuryata.

Anyway, this wasn't to start a fight or anything. Hopefully the logic behind why I assembled the pieces of background together this way makes sense.


EDIT: the Shrine lords were also an invention based on giving the shrine some semblance of structure. Otherwise you'd have all these exarchs running around doing their own thing with no structure at all.i can imagine that the eldest exarchs of a Shrine may even have been taught by their Phoenix lord

Having read the background myself, going all the way back, I still have to disagree with your idea of the shrines (they are described as large - but so are Craftworlds, and shrines are described as waxing/waning, occasionally going dormant, with certain shrines producing vast numbers of Aspect Warriors, while others may only generate a handful at a time). They're not really described like any of what you said - so I must be missing your fluff. 1st edition they were more or less Space Elves and pirates, with the "official" Eldar only coming into being in 2nd edition where they stamped them into what they are (more or less) today.

While you've assembled some interesting "ideas" they're nothing more than fan fiction essentially. Not saying you couldn't try to justify that stuff, but you seem to be presenting it as "this is how it is", and that's not really showcased anywhere.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, I just happen to disagree with your ideas.

Fairly sure being smacked upside the head with a Missile Launcher is still gonna knack? As would having the redhot barrel of a meltagun jabbed into the general facial region.

@bharring, your first line about varied students is at odds with your later comment about being too specialised to do anything by themselves.

Well, the first students each founded their own *aspect*. There's no fluff of a single modern shrine diverging nearly that much from their teachers/exarchs.

Also, aspects are specifically NOT obsessed with their path, exarchs are. Aspect warriors are focused on a path in the same way any other Eldar is focused on their path, only extracts and equivalents like farseers are obsessed.

Only Exarchs are *irreemably* obsessed. But the Path system itself is predicated on obsession. The Path of the Basket Weaver, for instance, would be obsessed with basket weaving. Where the Path saves the Eldar is that, once they master that Path, they break away from their obsession and get obsessed with something else.

Regardless, Aspects have, since the first students founded their shrines, obsessed over a certain aspect of Khaine and warfare. There's no fluff of individual Shrines having subsets of students of different Paths/Aspects.

Now, I'd certainly expect there to be Warhosts founded by Phoenix Lords. Perhaps even predominately of their Aspect. Like a mostly-Scorpion Warhost lead by Karrandras. But that Warhost is almost certain to have some support - perhaps transports, perhaps tech support, perhaps seer support. And that support is, necessarily, not on the Path of the Scorpion.

Then we get to Wraithlords being the souls of Exarchs. That's nearly as bad as Autarchs being Exarchs that took up multiple paths; it's just not compatible with the core "rebirth" form of the Aspect system. Exarchs that "die" remain fused to their armor. Their souls, even before their "death" has been lost to the Craftworld - it will never not walk that Path.

While many Wraithguard (and likely Wraithlords) are likely souls who have walked - possibly even were walking at time of death - a path of Khaine, there's no fluff of Shrines having seperate Infinity Circuits for those who walked their Path at time of death. That would run counter to the central concept of the Infinity Circuit, and also counter to the horror of being Lost on the Path - as an Aspect that dies isn't Lost on the Path, it's soul/being isn't lost to the Craftworld.

Then we get to support. Wraithguard still need Bonesingers to build and maintian them. SpiritSeers to guide them. It needs someone on some seer path to talk to them. None of the above are walking the Path of the Scorpoin. Any that have previously, have put that path aside to walk the Path of the Scorpion. So there's no viable support for a Shrine to retain it's own Wraithguard.

Finally, there is fluff that the Eldar prefer to use the souls of former Aspect Warriors to animate the Wraithguard chasises. How would a House animate their Wraithguard with Aspect souls if the Shrine "owned" said souls? How could they prefer Aspects over others if they didn't have both available to them? The fluff of former Aspects being preferred for Wraithguard requires that the Shrine doesn't keep the Aspect souls.

Now, when Karrandras puts together a Warhost, he's likely to find sympathisers amongst current and former Scorpions. And those that sympathize with him are likely to send him more Scorpion-sympathetic Eldar and Wraiths. So a warhost like what you detailed is entirely reasonable. But the vehicle pilots (and other support) arent' active Scorpions. They might be former or future ones. And the Wraith constructs might be legendary former Scorpion aspect warriors. But they're "owned" and sent by non-Scorpions.

Chaospling wrote:
How do you imagine Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and Warp Spiders defend themselves in close combat? Just put their ranged weapons at their backs and use martial arts and their sweet puny fists?

I know Aspect Warriors are speciealists at what they do, but doesn't it seem strange, that they have no close combat weapon whatsoever? Even guardsmen have knives and bayonets.

If you could make up some lore, would you give them some kind of close combat weapon? If yes, what weapon would you give them?

Smashing your head with the butt of their rifle / launcher seems pretty effective historically....

Look up some gameplay of the original Dawn of War games and that shows how Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons fight.

Not the best representation but at least it's something.

On a related note, why isn't it practical to used ranged weapons in melee?
I mean, obviously you don't want to use a rocket launcher that close b/c you'll kill yourself, but Fusion guns and Death Spinners are small enough not to be too unwieldy up close.

The damage output it could cause compared to their puny fists seems worth trying to use them up close.
I know if I were a Fire Dragon and some crazed Ork or Gorilla in Power armour was charging me, I'd keep shooting at it until it was dead. It would never make sense to strap my gun to my back and start punching.

-

 Frazzled wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
How do you imagine Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and Warp Spiders defend themselves in close combat? Just put their ranged weapons at their backs and use martial arts and their sweet puny fists?

I know Aspect Warriors are speciealists at what they do, but doesn't it seem strange, that they have no close combat weapon whatsoever? Even guardsmen have knives and bayonets.

If you could make up some lore, would you give them some kind of close combat weapon? If yes, what weapon would you give them?

Smashing your head with the butt of their rifle / launcher seems pretty effective historically....

Shape of Eldar Missile Launchers.....spesh the tip....that’s...quite the thrill if you’re caught with your pants down.

Same as Fire Dragon Meltas.

Wait a minute.....