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Mmmpi wrote:

Sgt_Smdge wrote:Tell me why it would be less flavourful.

Tell my why it would be just as flavorful.

Okay, I'll bite.
I'm going to work on the assumption that the actually flavourful parts of the Deathwing Terminators are that they have the Watchers in the Dark, and Inner Circle (because having extra plasma makes sense for any First Founding or well supplied Chapter, such as the Minotaurs, and mixable squad weaponry is something that any Chapter should have, and has been demonstrated in non-DA Chapters in the fluff too, such as the Blood Angel Terminators in Space Hulk). So if the important part is that Deathwing have a one-use Watcher ability and a unique keyword passive ability, why can't I apply the latter via the use of a faction-wide rule written in the supplement (ie, 'all Dark Angels units with the <Terminator> keyword gain the <Deathwing> keyword. Units with the <Deathwing> keyword gain the "Inner Circle" ability.')

Then make the Watcher a stratagem*, and more than one use (aka, "use this stratagem if a friendly <Deathwing> unit is the target of a psychic power. On a 3+, this power has no effect on the unit.")

There you go, the exact same rules, only you need a command point for one of them (but when paired with my proposed boost to all <Deathwing> detachments. Now, answer my question: why is this less flavourful?

*For what it's worth, things like armorium cherubs and haywire mines should also use these rules, just like how Cluster Mines have been made into a stratagem.

I've already explained it. Again, just because you don't like that explanation doesn't mean it's not there.

No, you haven't explained anything beyond screaming "bUt iT WOULD have lEss FLAvOur".

Detail, depth, and actual reasoning, beyond just saying what amounts to a glorified "no u".

Then I suggest you actually read my posts.

I have, and found them lacking anything that resembled an answer to that question.
What happens when you take a regular unit of Terminators, and give them the same rules that Deathwing Termies have? Oh, wait, they become the same as Deathwing Termies. My proposed rules do this.

Again, what about Chapter Masters and Chief Librarians? Hellfire shells and hunter killer missiles? What should they be? How about the "flavour" of my Ultramarines to be able to have overlapping Overwatch? Should that be automatic too?

I already flat out said both CM and CL should be their own data sheets.

Perhaps they should be - but, as you demonstrate in this thread "That's not the case, and I'll have to live with it until GW changes it's mind." So, if GW have decided that's how they'd rather do things, maybe we should be ensuring that everything with that kind of effect should be equal?

Basically, everyone should work under the same logic. If my Chapter Masters can't be guaranteed, and my Veteran Intercessors can just be denied, why shouldn't yours? Sounds a bit like you just want a double standard that favours you.

More room than every single generic datasheet? Ridiculous.

I've already gone over this in length about how adding them to Codex:Space Marines takes up tons of space.

No, you haven't done that either. You've claimed that "the number of rules wouldn't change", and that "25% of DA units are unique" (which isn't really true, I counted about 13 distinctly unique units that wouldn't easily translate to a simple keyword swap and a faction rule tacked onto them, out of a Codex of what would be roughly 86 units, which is just over 15%). That's not a ton of space at all. 13 unique things, 7 of which are characters (two of those basically being the same one!) isn't unreasonable, especially because you're not "adding them to Codex:Space Marines". You're adding them to a supplement book.

You know what is taking up tons of space? The other 85% of generic datasheets in Codex: Dark Angels, which already exist in another book! That's the waste of space here.

Let's make a compromise, shall we?

No. Not anymore.

Cute, but I'll continue.

Let's say you get all your unique datasheets, and we include a single page (because that's all it would take) saying what units you can't take in a DA army (so anything with the <Terminator> keyword, etc etc). You still think that would be longer than a whole Codex filled with the same generic stratagems and units that make up the main Codex? Absolutely not. You'd have a slightly larger supplement, that's for sure, but it wouldn't even come close to the size of the generic Codex, not even by a long shot. And, because I'm so generous, I wouldn't charge you any more for it than any other supplement.

So, answer me - what's wrong with that?

Nope. The current system is better.

And there we go again - just a statement, no actual reasoning, no explanation, just "no u". If you want to convey your point in a more sensible option, you may want to consider explaining why that is the case, beyond "nuh uh!"

I've explained my logic - the units that have easily comparable datasheets get folded into one because a small section using keyword shenanigans to grant special rules is easier than reprinting a whole datasheet and explaining how you can't use the other one, and because ~85% of the DA Codex is just generic units which don't need reprinting, and because it ensures that all Space Marines are working from the same baseline, which they already were in all but name - now, explain what's faulty with it, if you have such a problem with my proposal.

I rest my case.

Besides that, you're already forcing people to buy another book.

Just like how every other First Founding Chapter was? Double standards much?

Just because you wouldn't, doesn't mean GW wouldn't charge more.

But we're talking about a hypothetical here, not GW's proposal. In *my* proposal, that's not a problem. So, to say again, what problem do you have with *my* proposal?

Ah, I see what it is. You haven't got a problem with everyone else having to pay for their extra flavour and special characters ("yeah, I mean, screw the Iron Hands, if they want to take a single unique character, I guess they need to by a supplement!"), but if that were asked of you, that's completely out of line! /s

You need to work on your sarcasm.

You need to work on your arguments. Right now, they don't exist.

Should we release an Iron Hands Codex too? All the generic units, plus their Iron Hands flavour aspects? Ultramarines too? Every Chapter with any kind of unique rules? Or are they not "special" enough?

Yes. Any chapter with enough unique rules and units stretching back for over two decades should have it's own codex.

Sorry, did you think I was going to be taken aback and declare you a genius for posting this?

No, but now I know that you're just unconcerned about reprinting the same rules over and over again because having to carry two books is unreasonable for you. Personally, I can't understand this logic at all, because I don't see what's so sacrosanct about having all your rules in one place and having the vaunted title of "Codex" instead of "supplement" on your book, but hey, that's just me.

Again, according to your "GW would charge people anyways!" logic, if GW are happy to charge UM players more for having their two books right now, why would it matter if they were both put in one? Surely, by your logic, GW would be forcing the non-DA/BA/SW Chapters to pay more regardless.

You clearly have enough interest to keep discussing this. I'm not asking you to keep typing out "each unit's change to equipment and rules" - I'm asking you to do it to the Deathwing alone, beyond just saying "they're different!!!1!". So you say, but you're not saying why.

I have said why. Read my posts. And no, I'm not going to do it for deathwing now either.

No, you haven't, I've already have read them. They're just as shallow as the difference between regular Terminators and Deathwing.

But, because I got bored of waiting for you, I looked myself. And yeah, I can see why you didn't want to answer that question: there is literally nothing "special" about them. You get a one-use ability (easily replaceable by a stratagem, like so many other units have had their abilities translated to), and a faction-wide keyword ability, which is exactly what I advocated for.

Unless there's something I'm missing, I cannot see why on earth they can't have all of that and more if they were moved into a supplement.

I suggest you start doing your reading.

I have. I suggest you stop hiding behind this obtuse facade, and actually back up your points beyond shallow nonsense.

By all means, continue just saying "they'd be different because they'd be different", but I'm sure it's pretty clear to anyone reading that it's a facade of an argument.

Sure it's a facade of an argument when you ignore 90% of the words I used.

If only you had used any words to flesh out your argument at all.

Let me pose to you a maths question: 2+2=5. Now, let me ask you another: "why is this sum wrong". At the moment, your answer is "it's wrong because it's not correct". That's not an answer, that's telling me absolutely nothing new or what I want to know.

I hate to break it to you, but "It's not correct" actually is an answer, and one that accurately describes the issue.

Good luck passing a mathematics test by doing that.
That's not an answer at all, it's a pithy smart-ass remark. It doesn't resolve the question, it doesn't present a solution, it just repeats the question to me without any new context.

"Why was this man shot?" "Someone shot him."
"Where are my shoes?" "Somewhere."
"What is your dog's name?" "The name I gave it."

As you are (might) be able to see, these are non-answers.

But as to my posts, read them. I gave you actual answers. Again, you just don't like them. You can stop begging the question.

No, you haven't. I've scoured your posts for meaning, for something beyond "they have flavour because they have flavour" and "you can't do that, it would get rid of flavour", but no kind of elaboration on any other them.

The closest you've come to elaborate is "[Deathwing have]...Different rules, different equipment choices." However, when I've argued why putting these rules in another place (via stratagem for the WitD and Inner Circle granted via keywords) and how critical the different equipment actually is to the identity of the Deathwing Terminators (yayyyy a plasma cannon that honestly all First Founding Chapters should have? that's totally worth a whole new datasheet for! maybe we should make a whole new datasheet for Salamanders Tactical Marines because they should have heavy flamers!), you've been unable to argue against that, and just repeated the ol' "I ALREAdy tOld YoU" line.

I'm asking you to clearly point out to me *exactly* why the Deathwing Terminators datasheet is different to normal Codex Terminators, beyond "they're different". Why are they different, in what way are they different? At the moment, you're getting no marks - no passing the exam: because you're not answering the question.

I suggest reading my answers then. Because I did say why. I didn't type out every single difference, but I have no incentive to do that. I just said what differences there are. Again, I'm fairly sure you don't know how to constructively read.

No, you simply haven't.

If you want to show me where you actually do elaborate, I'll be happy to see, but so far, I can't see it anywhere. But as far as I can see, you've said nothing of the sort.

Turning rules units had in to stratagems that can be used only on one unit, one time per turn is a very bad idea. I am speaking here from personal expiriance, so maybe it ain't worth much.

Also double standards in rules aren't anything new as far as GW goes.

Karol wrote:
Turning rules units had in to stratagems that can be used only on one unit, one time per turn is a very bad idea. I am speaking here from personal expiriance, so maybe it ain't worth much.

Fair point, but in the same respect, at least my option can be used multiple times per game, as opposed to the one per game that the normal WitD has. I'd probably only be charging 1CP for it anyways. I still want that flavour of the Deathwing (even if the upgrade is completely optional!), but I just don't want a whole datasheet tied to it when so much of it is just a copypaste of a regular Terminator Squad.

Plus, I don't think I'd mind if it were an automatic effect (ie, no 3+, you play the stratagem, and the psychic power has no effect). But then, there's a great many stratagems where I wish it was an automatic effect instead of a "on a X+, you do Y" (contenders for this are orbital bombardment and similar stratagems - paying Command Points for no guarantee of any damage at all ain't exactly great).

Also double standards in rules aren't anything new as far as GW goes.

True, but that doesn't mean I can't at least want to change that.

Well I am skewed. to me a basic stratagem cost 2CP. not against fixing double standards, but saying that just because something would be one, doesn't mean GW would not do it. Again not against. I would want all codex to have good rules.

Karol wrote:
Well I am skewed. to me a basic stratagem cost 2CP. not against fixing double standards, but saying that just because something would be one, doesn't mean GW would not do it. Again not against. I would want all codex to have good rules.

Agreed. I'd want GK stratagems to require less cost, because them getting CP in the first place is difficult as is, without Guardsmen batteries. Of course, I'm also of the opinion that CP earned by one faction shouldn't be usable by another.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
He also just described most of the difference between eldar and IG as well. A stat or two and equipment. If he was really interested in consolidation, why not make Space marines, and IG. If you want Tau Crisis suites, just use space marine devastators with jump packs? Banshees? Use stormtroopers with powerswords and x special rules.

The disingenuity here is magical!

Not really. It's just the same argument taken a level higher.

If you speed by 1 MPH, you're unlikely to even get pulled over.

If you speed by 20 MPH, you'll get a ticket if you get caught.

If you speed by 100 MPH, that's a gorram felony.

Degree matters-taking something to its extreme is not accurately representing it.

It's not the argument's fault that cops are lazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Karol

"and if you have a car doing that, the police will fear that you are either mob, politicians, both "

In most of the US, and much of Europe, cops will still chase you down for doing it, and usually give you a ticket/arrest you when they do catch you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
No, you haven't explained anything beyond screaming "bUt iT WOULD have lEss FLAvOur".

I stopped reading your post at this point.

You can't be bothered to actually read what I post, I'm just going to say you're wrong as a reply from now on, and move on. Other people actually want to have adult conversations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Turning rules units had in to stratagems that can be used only on one unit, one time per turn is a very bad idea. I am speaking here from personal expiriance, so maybe it ain't worth much.

This is a very good point on why they should stay rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Fair point, but in the same respect, at least my option can be used multiple times per game, as opposed to the one per game that the normal WitD has. I'd probably only be charging 1CP for it anyways. I still want that flavour of the Deathwing (even if the upgrade is completely optional!), but I just don't want a whole datasheet tied to it when so much of it is just a copypaste of a regular Terminator Squad.

You're wrong.

Granted, the 1 use per phase restriction is a Matched Plsy rule.

Narritive doesn't have that limit, and also has lots of interesting rules.

I just think they can be part of the Faction traits. Not a fan of Stratagems that give you units that should be free with a Faction (like Skarboyz), but don't necessarily think it requires a whole new datasheet to represent those units. For example, Skarboyz could literally just be:

Goff: exploding 6s in CC and all ORK units with this Kultur use the Strength value on their Datasheet, or gain a Strength Value of 5, whichever is higher.

Could work just as well with all the special units in DA or whatever.

"[Unit name] with the Dark Angels Keyword gain [Ability or bonus]."

Easy peasy.

Mmmpi wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
No, you haven't explained anything beyond screaming "bUt iT WOULD have lEss FLAvOur".

I stopped reading your post at this point.

You can't be bothered to actually read what I post, I'm just going to say you're wrong as a reply from now on, and move on.

I mean, I *have* looked through your comments on this thread, and there is absolutely nothing. You can say all you like about how you've explained your point, but it just ain't there. Now, if you have actually done so, if yourself or anyone else could just show me where, I can move on, but I've been going back and there's actually nothing that tells me why. My only assumption at this point is that you're arguing in bad faith.

Other people actually want to have adult conversations.

And you don't seem to be one of them.

Karol wrote:
Turning rules units had in to stratagems that can be used only on one unit, one time per turn is a very bad idea. I am speaking here from personal expiriance, so maybe it ain't worth much.

This is a very good point on why they should stay rules.

But is it a good enough point on why it should become a whole new datasheet? I don't think so. Perhaps there could be a "Chapter upgrades" list within the supplement, not attached to any datasheets, which allows for <Deathwing> units to buy a Watcher for X points, but a whole new datasheet? That's wasteful.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Fair point, but in the same respect, at least my option can be used multiple times per game, as opposed to the one per game that the normal WitD has. I'd probably only be charging 1CP for it anyways. I still want that flavour of the Deathwing (even if the upgrade is completely optional!), but I just don't want a whole datasheet tied to it when so much of it is just a copypaste of a regular Terminator Squad.

You're wrong.

Why?
Go on, tell me why, because you still haven't explained what is a genuine difference between the two, barring the Watcher in the Dark, and the Inner Circle rule.

Blndmage wrote:Granted, the 1 use per phase restriction is a Matched Plsy rule.

Narritive doesn't have that limit, and also has lots of interesting rules.

Ooh, forgot about that. Good catch!

flandarz wrote:I just think they can be part of the Faction traits. Not a fan of Stratagems that give you units that should be free with a Faction (like Skarboyz), but don't necessarily think it requires a whole new datasheet to represent those units. For example, Skarboyz could literally just be:

Goff: exploding 6s in CC and all ORK units with this Kultur use the Strength value on their Datasheet, or gain a Strength Value of 5, whichever is higher.

Could work just as well with all the special units in DA or whatever.

"[Unit name] with the Dark Angels Keyword gain [Ability or bonus]."

Easy peasy.

Also true!

Why?
Go on, tell me why, because you still haven't explained what is a genuine difference between the two, barring the Watcher in the Dark, and the Inner Circle rule.

dont the DW termintors have separate rules and load outs right now, that other termintors can not use. If they were to use the same core unit as the base of a termintor unit, then either the gear and unit set up options would have to be removed, or be given to other marines too. I could imagine that a DA player does not want to be forced to buy 2 books, while at the same time suddenly see either his stuff removed or given to other armies.

My army doesn't share much with 1ksons besides being magical marines. But it irks me a lot that 1ksons get special bolter ammo and normal smite on their dudes, while my do not. And as I said we aren't even the same grand faction.

people are willing to give up something, to get something other won't get. They may not be always happy about it, but it is a thing. But give up stuff to get higher costs on stuff, and everyone can use it? To stuff like that people say no.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I mean, I *have* looked through your comments on this thread

Evidence shows this to be untrue.

Next!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Why?
Go on, tell me why, because you still haven't explained what is a genuine difference between the two, barring the Watcher in the Dark, and the Inner Circle rule.

dont the DW termintors have separate rules and load outs right now, that other termintors can not use. If they were to use the same core unit as the base of a termintor unit, then either the gear and unit set up options would have to be removed, or be given to other marines too. I could imagine that a DA player does not want to be forced to buy 2 books, while at the same time suddenly see either his stuff removed or given to other armies.

My army doesn't share much with 1ksons besides being magical marines. But it irks me a lot that 1ksons get special bolter ammo and normal smite on their dudes, while my do not. And as I said we aren't even the same grand faction.

people are willing to give up something, to get something other won't get. They may not be always happy about it, but it is a thing. But give up stuff to get higher costs on stuff, and everyone can use it? To stuff like that people say no.

Yes they do. It's a more limited equipment list than WG if I remember correctly, but not as limited as tactical or assault terminators.

Except that "flexible loadout" is never used. Nobody is gonna throw 1 of each Terminator in a squad just because they can, as it wouldn't do anything but get on the table and do jack gak.

So if the argument really does boil down to that, you don't have an argument.

Rather than let DA have a mix and match terminator squad everyone should have. The 4 terminator datasheets shouöd just be a single one for everyone.

Scouts can be CC weapon, 2 kinds of mid range shooty, snipers with or without camo cloaks and/or have heavy bolter/missile launcher. All in a single datasheet and work fine if you want to mix and match, never seen anyone do it though. Why not terminators?

Karol wrote:

Why?
Go on, tell me why, because you still haven't explained what is a genuine difference between the two, barring the Watcher in the Dark, and the Inner Circle rule.

dont the DW termintors have separate rules and load outs right now, that other termintors can not use.

No, not really.
Deathwing Terminators can mix and match having the standard ranged Terminator loadouts (ie, storm bolter/power fist) and melee loadouts (ie, thunder hammer/storm shield) within the same squad, although there is no reason why every other Chapter cannot also do that - especially seeing as we have lore about other Chapters doing just this.
Deathwing Terminators have access to a plasma cannon, as part of their Terminator Heavy Weapons. Again, why is this not available to other Chapters who are just as established? It's not like it's a totally unique plasma weapon like a plasma talon. Basically, well supplied and well connected Chapters should certainly have at least one on hand, such as any First Founding Chapter.
Deathwing Terminators have access to a Watcher in the Dark (which I've demonstrated could be reflected via a stratagem or purchasable via an entry on the page outlining the Chapter's special rules and suchlike), and have the Inner Circle rule (which I've also shown can be implemented without a whole unique datasheet!).

Basically, the Deathwing only have two truly unique and flavourful things, which can easily be represented without a datasheet, which is my whole point.

If they were to use the same core unit as the base of a termintor unit, then either the gear and unit set up options would have to be removed, or be given to other marines too. I could imagine that a DA player does not want to be forced to buy 2 books, while at the same time suddenly see either his stuff removed or given to other armies.

But that's the thing - none of their stuff is being removed - at least, the stuff that's truly unique.
Why should having combined Terminator Squads be unique? Nothing justifies that in lore, so why shouldn't it be so for every Chapter (regardless of if people would take advantage of it or not)?

And again, regarding the "forced to buy two books" - tell that to people who play any other First Founding Chapter. Why should DA be any different?

My army doesn't share much with 1ksons besides being magical marines. But it irks me a lot that 1ksons get special bolter ammo and normal smite on their dudes, while my do not. And as I said we aren't even the same grand faction.

Thousand Sons have always had special bolter ammo, and is explained in the lore why they're the only CSM to have it. But I do agree with you on why GK get a nerfed Smite but Thousand Sons don't. I'm not excusing that, and I would support Grey Knights having proper Smite.

Mmmpi wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I mean, I *have* looked through your comments on this thread

Evidence shows this to be untrue.

What evidence? You're the one who hasn't produced any supporting your notion that you "explained" why Deathwing were unique.
If you want this silly charade over, just show me your "evidence", and I'll proceed to discuss that, but in absence of your supposed "explanations", I'm going to continue presuming that you are arguing in poor faith.

Yes they do. It's a more limited equipment list than WG if I remember correctly, but not as limited as tactical or assault terminators.

That's because they just combined the two datasheets, like every other Chapter should - where's the "unique Dark Angels flavour" in that?. That's not unique. Unique is the Inner Circle rule, and the Watcher in the Dark.

Klickor wrote:Rather than let DA have a mix and match terminator squad everyone should have. The 4 terminator datasheets shouöd just be a single one for everyone.

Kinda agreed: all Terminators (except Grey Knights, obviously) should be put in one datasheet, and embedded in that datasheet should be a rule allowing for the entire squad to wear a different kind of Terminator Armour (Cataphractii reduces speed, but increases Invuln save, etc etc). Obviously, no "only Tartaros Terminators can have autocannons!" - open it up to the whole squad, and add autocannons and plasma cannons into the standard arsenal.

Scouts can be CC weapon, 2 kinds of mid range shooty, snipers with or without camo cloaks and/or have heavy bolter/missile launcher. All in a single datasheet and work fine if you want to mix and match, never seen anyone do it though. Why not terminators?

Exactly. What lore/flavour reason do DA have for having a mixed weapon squad instead of every other Chapter?

Sgt - you are being to logical, accurate and making too much sense - its not going to work.....

 Mr Morden wrote:
Sgt - you are being to logical, accurate and making too much sense - its not going to work.....

Yeah. People can have disagreements on whether or not Codecs should be unified, and how to go about it, even if they agree they should be unified.

But what Mmmpi is doing is not a valid, reasonable debate about disagreements in the direction they think 40k should go. It's blatant rejection of arguments without any support of their own.

Let's go through this shall we. Sticking to Deathwing terminators as an example for why the DA (and BA, SW, etc) are separate:

Differences:
Lore - outside of the Unforgiven no other chapters deploy there 1st company exclusively (as in - only and never any other way) as Terminators. This then impacts in how they're used in the lore.
Lore - before a certain BA expansion in 7th, the general rule was Terminator armour is a rarity even amongst the Astartes. Except for the Unforgiven who had it in seemingly abundance (see previous lore point).
Lore - the Unforgiven have access to technologies from the Crusade, back when the 1st legion had access to technology no other Legion had access to. Experimental weaponry, Warp-tech, etc that was not shared acorss the other. At the end of the Heresy/Caliban incident the 1st Legion (and subsequent chapters) still had access to a LT more tech than there counterparts in the other Legions.

Rules - for multiple editions the Deathwing have had a mixed single unit to emphasise the lore aspect of how they deploy. They're treat as a swiss army knife or toolbox in the lore, and as such train in that approach. No Other Chapter Trains Like This! So the datasheets reflect this on both sides (Deathwing being mixed, everyone else's being specialised).
Rules - Deathwing Terminators have access to a couple of weapon/wargear options that no-one else gets. This is also based on the Lore for them (see above).
Rules - 8th Deathwing have stratagems that are focussed on the shock/teleport assault they're known for. 7th (and other editions) had similar rules baked into the units rules. This again represents an element of the lore (see above).
Rules - the DA do not get Combat Doctrines, a decision made when the 8th edition codex was released.

So that's a small list of differences, but the important ones. This is why the unit has not been condensed into a 'generic' option. Notice how much of the units rules are based on the lore, or trying to put that lore onto the tabletop. And this is the same idea for things like the Ravenwing, there flyers, skimmers, characters. And for the unique units for the BA and SW. That's what makes them different from Ultramarines/'vanilla' Marines.

--

Okay so if you don't like that these differences exist and your argument is 'but, but why can't my special snowflake marines have that stuff' the answer is: check the lore, because that's what it boils down to. Then check the rules, because these are clear differences and the reasons why they exist. Granted that's a lot harder in 8th with the blandification of Marine factions but there was a greater mechanical difference not so long ago.

And I can already hear you saying 'but those reasons don't justify why Terminators can't be mixed, or why the DA get Plasma Cannons. It's not different, so everyone should get it!' at which point you are being intentionally obtuse or you're ignoring all the writing out there (of which I just gave you a very brief summary above). So let's do a little thought exercise and condense the Deathwing into the generic Terminators -

Pro's: Same rules for everyone
Con's: No need to have different models available for DA/BA/SW/Generic Terminators

Oh.. oh why is that a con? Because there's not a 'generic' plasma cannon available. So that falls into the 'no model, no rules' traps doesn't it. And then oh look, no more Deathwing terminator models. So of course you remove it as a wargear option for 'everyone', even though only 1 faction actually had the option originally. See, generic terminators everyone can have now.

And once you start applying that approach to one unit whilst condensing the DA into the generic list, you have to apply it to all. So you start cutting models. And your reason for that is what... rules parity? That's not a good reason to start removing model options considering how much noise this forum has generated on the loss of DE characters getting bikes, or bits for Orks, etc.

Now could they put the DA out as a supplement in the same way as Iron Hands? Sure, they could. But they could have given them Doctrines in the big update when the codex came out, they decided not to do that for a reason that is currently unclear outside of 'The DA operate differently to a 'codex' chapter to a more significant degree than say the White Scars'. It's all about design decisions and which route they want to go for. They DA could end up as a supplement with a list of core units that are not allowed to be 'DA' or they could just remake the codex (again).

Now I hope that clears up why the not-Codex-compliant chapters are different (reason 1: lore, reason 2: wargear options based on the lore). If that's not a good enough reason for you then I have no idea what will be now.

So only look at the lore which supports your own argument for why your "special snowflake marines can have that stuff' - gotcha.

"No model, no rules" is GW's design philosophy. That doesn't make it the best-of-all-worlds greatest possible way to design the game. If you go with the theory that the rules should be written only to include bits that are in the kits you're buying why are Deathwing Terminators not limited to one TH/SS model per squad? There's only one thunderhammer in the kit, isn't there? Why is shield/storm bolter not a loadout? The shields are on the left arm the storm bolters are on the right, isn't that how they're supposed to go together?

The other problem with the argument that BA/DA/SW should get unique Codexes because their rules are too different is that options get taken away from generic Marines to make them more special. In 4e/5e all Tactical Marines either had or had the option to have bolter/chainsword/pistol, but in 6e they took that away because they were stepping on the Grey Hunters' toes. In 4e any Space Marines could have two special weapons instead of special/heavy in their Tactical squads, they took that away in 5e because that was stepping on the Grey Hunters' toes. Is the only reason Terminators are assault or tactical to avoid stepping on the Dark Angels' toes? Or is it just because GW makes only assault terminators/tactical terminators boxes? You can mix lightning claws and bolter/fist when you're taking Tartaros or Cataphractii armour but Indomitus armour limits the tactical flexibility of the wearers?

BroodSpawn wrote:Let's go through this shall we. Sticking to Deathwing terminators as an example for why the DA (and BA, SW, etc) are separate:

Differences:
Lore - outside of the Unforgiven no other chapters deploy there 1st company exclusively (as in - only and never any other way) as Terminators. This then impacts in how they're used in the lore.

Accepted. This could be represented via an ability wherein a <Deathwing> Vanguard detachment gains extra CP. Does not need a full Codex to show this.

Lore - before a certain BA expansion in 7th, the general rule was Terminator armour is a rarity even amongst the Astartes. Except for the Unforgiven who had it in seemingly abundance (see previous lore point).

As above - although any First Founding Chapter should have more Terminator Armour than their successors, and that's including even Unforgiven ones. But, yes, this can be represented via giving <Deathwing> (aka, Terminator) detachments a boost in CP to actually encourage taking all Terminator armies. This can be done via supplement.

Lore - the Unforgiven have access to technologies from the Crusade, back when the 1st legion had access to technology no other Legion had access to. Experimental weaponry, Warp-tech, etc that was not shared acorss the other. At the end of the Heresy/Caliban incident the 1st Legion (and subsequent chapters) still had access to a LT more tech than there counterparts in the other Legions.

But all First Founders have lots of resources and political clout. Yes, the Dark Angels have some unique technologies (such as their more ready access to old school grav-vehicles and unique plasma talons), but things like plasma cannons on Terminators? That's not exactly something that should be "unique" any more so than Ultramarines having an Honour Guard (which I fully think should be made generic). Again, is that really enough to justify having a Codex where 85% of the units are exactly the same as their Codex brethren?

Rules - for multiple editions the Deathwing have had a mixed single unit to emphasise the lore aspect of how they deploy. They're treat as a swiss army knife or toolbox in the lore, and as such train in that approach. No Other Chapter Trains Like This! So the datasheets reflect this on both sides (Deathwing being mixed, everyone else's being specialised).

And the "no other Chapter trains like this" is both already reflected (Inner Circle rules), and also not exactly true in regards to mixed unit deployment. We also see that Blood Angels in the Space Hulk game and novel have mixed unit Terminators. The Space Marine Heroes line features this too. The Cataphractii and Tartaros datasheets feature this too.

It's literally only a feature of the Tactical and Assault Terminator rules, and with no reason for why. It's time to get rid of that.

Rules - Deathwing Terminators have access to a couple of weapon/wargear options that no-one else gets. This is also based on the Lore for them (see above).

Rules and lore that could easily be represented in the other ways I have described. No reason for a whole new datasheet and Codex.

Rules - 8th Deathwing have stratagems that are focussed on the shock/teleport assault they're known for. 7th (and other editions) had similar rules baked into the units rules. This again represents an element of the lore (see above).

I wouldn't want to get rid of those Stratagems, because just like everyone else's unique supplements, you'd have your own. They would obviously be part of your supplement, just like everyone else.

Rules - the DA do not get Combat Doctrines, a decision made when the 8th edition codex was released.

Do not get Combat Doctrine yet. And, from a lore perspective, why not? They should have Combat Doctrines just as rightly as Iron Hands (who flaunt the Codex even more than the DA do).

So that's a small list of differences, but the important ones. This is why the unit has not been condensed into a 'generic' option. Notice how much of the units rules are based on the lore, or trying to put that lore onto the tabletop.

Notice how all of my suggestions and proposals acknowledge the core features of this lore, and implement them in a way that, in some cases, is even more reflective of the Dark Angels methodology than what you already have?

You don't need a full Codex and unique datasheet to have flavour. The supplement I propose would have all of that.

And this is the same idea for things like the Ravenwing, there flyers, skimmers, characters. And for the unique units for the BA and SW. That's what makes them different from Ultramarines/'vanilla' Marines.

But it really doesn't, because, as I've pointed out, most of those traits you've listed don't reflect on how they're used in game.

My prime example: you say the Deathwing deploy en masse, and that's how they're specially trained to operate, but nothing about their mechanical rules supports mass deployment of Deathwing units! Mine does.

--

Okay so if you don't like that these differences exist and your argument is 'but, but why can't my special snowflake marines have that stuff' the answer is: check the lore, because that's what it boils down to. Then check the rules, because these are clear differences and the reasons why they exist. Granted that's a lot harder in 8th with the blandification of Marine factions but there was a greater mechanical difference not so long ago.

You've cited the lore and reasons why, which is more than some bad faith debaters here, but the problem is that the lore you've given doesn't really do any favours.

What part of their lore says they are the only Chapter to have plasma cannons on Terminators that none of the other First Founders shouldn't have had access to over 10,000 years? I mean, we literally have an Ultramarines Terminator Captain who carried a plasma blaster into battle - which is rarer than any plasma cannon. What part of their lore says they're the only Chapter smart enough to mix squad weapons, even when we have plenty of other sources saying the exact opposite?

The only parts of the lore that define the Deathwing apart is how they're deployed and their culture within the Chapter (oh, and the Watchers). My proposals address all these points, and arguably improve (especially on deployment).

And I can already hear you saying 'but those reasons don't justify why Terminators can't be mixed, or why the DA get Plasma Cannons. It's not different, so everyone should get it!' at which point you are being intentionally obtuse or you're ignoring all the writing out there (of which I just gave you a very brief summary above). So let's do a little thought exercise and condense the Deathwing into the generic Terminators -

Pro's: Same rules for everyone
Con's: No need to have different models available for DA/BA/SW/Generic Terminators

Oh.. oh why is that a con? Because there's not a 'generic' plasma cannon available. So that falls into the 'no model, no rules' traps doesn't it. And then oh look, no more Deathwing terminator models. So of course you remove it as a wargear option for 'everyone', even though only 1 faction actually had the option originally. See, generic terminators everyone can have now.

I didn't say anywhere about getting rid of models for DA/BA/SW. I would love for them to still be around, but I don't see why you need a unique datasheet for it. The models look rad, don't get rid of them, but there's no real need for them to be anything more than the same Terminators everyone else gets (obviously excepting for things like Deathwing Knights, who have entirely unique weapon options).

And, for what it's worth, I don't believe in "no model, no rules".

So, what's your problem with plasma cannons for everyone? You're telling me that no other Chapter either had, or was able to otherwise procure, a plasma cannon weapon for their Terminators?

And once you start applying that approach to one unit whilst condensing the DA into the generic list, you have to apply it to all. So you start cutting models. And your reason for that is what... rules parity? That's not a good reason to start removing model options considering how much noise this forum has generated on the loss of DE characters getting bikes, or bits for Orks, etc.

Yeah, now that's where things move away from what I was arguing. I didn't advocate or support getting rid of models of units that had no easy direct equivalent. I'm asking what would you lose from simply folding Deathwing Terminators into the same datasheet as normal ones, and saving your Codex from 85% of the generic units that have already been printed elsewhere, and adding all your genuinely unique and flavourful stuff into a supplement.

Now could they put the DA out as a supplement in the same way as Iron Hands? Sure, they could. But they could have given them Doctrines in the big update when the codex came out, they decided not to do that for a reason that is currently unclear outside of 'The DA operate differently to a 'codex' chapter to a more significant degree than say the White Scars'.

Even though the Iron Hands have historically resisted the Codex for longer than either the Dark Angels or Blood Angels? And they got Doctrines?
Mark my words, DA, if they get a Codex (which, let's be honest, they will, if I like it or not), they will have a form of Combat Doctrines in it. The reason GW haven't done that is simple - they don't update all the Space Marine factions at once, and only really update (beyond giving everyone a basic PDF of the generic units they all share - which make up ~85 of the Dark Angels) armies when they have a Codex!
Did all factions get stratagems at the same time? Do they all have stratagems now?

Now I hope that clears up why the not-Codex-compliant chapters are different (reason 1: lore, reason 2: wargear options based on the lore). If that's not a good enough reason for you then I have no idea what will be now.

The problem is that your lore and options based on the lore don't explain why they shouldn't have a supplement.

Let's say I'm wrong, and Deathwing Terminators are genuinely unique. Lovely. Why shouldn't we still strip out the ~85% of generic units and put them in a supplement?
That's the core of my argument. You share so many units in common, and so many of your "unique" units (not all, obviously) are just reskins of existing ones. Now all First Founding Chapters have their own stratagems and warlord traits and psychic power tables - what makes DA/BA/SW special any more to warrant a full Codex and not just a slightly larger supplement?

What's so bad about being a supplement, if it actually did include all your unique units (including Deathwing)?

If the lore difference you really want to go with is "oh Deathwing are deployed in mass", then you should have a minimum you have to take the moment you want to use them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If the lore difference you really want to go with is "oh Deathwing are deployed in mass", then you should have a minimum you have to take the moment you want to use them.

I'd also add a limit to non Deathwing Terminators honestly. A big problem with the Chapters is how much GW blurs the line between them like with Scouts.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If the lore difference you really want to go with is "oh Deathwing are deployed in mass", then you should have a minimum you have to take the moment you want to use them.

I'd also add a limit to non Deathwing Terminators honestly. A big problem with the Chapters is how much GW blurs the line between them like with Scouts.

I don't see the need for a limit for any Terminators. We just really need a consolidated entry for them. I already have one I finalized on for homebrew stuff, but I'm bad at creating codex layout and nobody uses the stuff anyway.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If the lore difference you really want to go with is "oh Deathwing are deployed in mass", then you should have a minimum you have to take the moment you want to use them.

I'd also add a limit to non Deathwing Terminators honestly. A big problem with the Chapters is how much GW blurs the line between them like with Scouts.

Whilst I can see what you mean, what if you want to play a game where you're actually taking the full 1st Company? I could be wrong, but don't most First Founders (barring Dropsite Massacre survivors) have a full compliment of Terminator Armour, but they just don't advocate deploying them all like the Dark Angels do?

 Mr Morden wrote:
So only look at the lore which supports your own argument for why your "special snowflake marines can have that stuff' - gotcha.

Sure, let's go with that obtuse take on it. You want everything to be the same and are willing to re-write parts you don't like to have it that way. The 'but other chapters could have this stuff too' argument only works if GW had written that they had it. Which, I would like to point out quite explicitly here, they didn't. Ultarmarines don't have Deathwing style terminators because they 'wrote the book*' on how terminators should e used and follow it. DA ignore that part of the book*. Thus differences, thus why Deathwing exists as the toolbox specialist styled variant to terminators that they are. There's really nothing else beyond that reason at the core of it.

I understand you don't like that the answer 'because they wrote it that way', but there's no other fundamental reason for why things are different. I'm trying to present to you that side of it, in as clear a manner as I can. Without those differences there would only be 1 Space Marine army list. And now I think I get your side of the argument, you only want there to be 1 army list for ALL Marines no matter any pre-existing stories, lore, models or differences.


*Codex Astartes, as writting by Guilliman, y'know that special lore thing that sets out how Marines operate(d).

The other problem with the argument that BA/DA/SW should get unique Codexes because their rules are too different is that options get taken away from generic Marines to make them more special. In 4e/5e all Tactical Marines either had or had the option to have bolter/chainsword/pistol, but in 6e they took that away because they were stepping on the Grey Hunters' toes. In 4e any Space Marines could have two special weapons instead of special/heavy in their Tactical squads, they took that away in 5e because that was stepping on the Grey Hunters' toes.

I guess the answer is yes, they removed options from the generics to make the more unique variants stand-out as being a variant. They forced a situation of 'this is why Grey Hunters are different to Tactical marines'. Note I'm not saying that was a good or bad decision, just what that decision has done.

"No model, no rules" is GW's design philosophy. That doesn't make it the best-of-all-worlds greatest possible way to design the game. If you go with the theory that the rules should be written only to include bits that are in the kits you're buying why are Deathwing Terminators not limited to one TH/SS model per squad? There's only one thunderhammer in the kit, isn't there? Why is shield/storm bolter not a loadout? The shields are on the left arm the storm bolters are on the right, isn't that how they're supposed to go together?

First off I'm neither a model designer nor a rules writer, so the specifics on exactly why you can't have a storm shield/storm bolter option are.. honestly I have no idea. But if your counterpoint to 'no model, no rules' is they put a single weapon in a box then.. I dunno, can you show me that generic Plasma Cannon somewhere? Because that's my point when going down that thought experiment, there isn't one. So GW has 2 options: sculpt a new non-Primaris kit for a unit that probably wont sell well enough (there's 5? 7? Terminator kits out there as is) with options to cover everything or remove the options from the rules, remove the models from sale. Since it's a non-Primaris kit I'd be erring on them removing kits from the range instead of sculpting a kit to replace the rest.

Is the only reason Terminators are assault or tactical to avoid stepping on the Dark Angels' toes? Or is it just because GW makes only assault terminators/tactical terminators boxes? You can mix lightning claws and bolter/fist when you're taking Tartaros or Cataphractii armour but Indomitus armour limits the tactical flexibility of the wearers?

Really it's probably down to model designs and why they decided to have Deathwing mix 'n' match and regular terminator kits not. I'd argue that it's not step on toes but down to when they made the actual kits and so they've stuck with that approach, which also has a narrative backing to it (see Deathwing = toolbox, Ultramarines Terminators = specialise in a role for example).

Cataphractii and Tartaros kits were aimed at the Heresy crowd first, and so had options based on the Heresy options (and resin kits they replaced). They're also a lot newer than the other Termintor kits. Why the tactical flexibility in 40k then - because they had to make 40k rules otherwise people would have been very, very angry about it and just went with a 'okay let's give them options based on what's in the kit and not split them up like before'. Frankly Heresy related models should not exist in 40k rules, but that's another issue and just a personal opinion. There's probably no good answer for that one. Anyway I'd put it down to model designs/kit release dates inferring into the rules on this one. Which is also how GW works funnily enough.

The thing I don't really understand about the whole "Deathwing Terminators should be versatile, but normal ones are specialised" is that it actually makes no sense from an organisational perspective.

Think about it - the "normal" Chapters deploy Terminators sparingly, mostly as a supplement to larger forces (exceptions include Space Hulks and things like the Ultramarines' Deliverance of Thrax) - so with less Terminators available, surely they'd want them to be more versatile?

Compare and contrast to the Deathwing, who deploy en mass, and overwhelm targets with a wave of Terminator armoured bodies and the stench of ozone - surely, with more units at their disposal, they could afford to specialise and work at a macro level instead of a micro one?

Basically, surely it makes more sense for the Dark Angels to have the specialised specific squads, and the "normal" Chapters to need to cover more bases with mixed-weapon units? Not that I'd advocate for DA to have fixed squads, I just think we should get rid of the notion of fixed squads altogether.

Just drop this idea of consolidating the datasheets of snowflake units, you can't. Just putting the DW datasheet inside the regular terminator datasheet would make it really messy and unreadable.

Discussing the possibility that the DA should become an SM supplement has a merit, since it does have many units which are just vanilla, but we should do that with the idea that it would be a supplement with a lot of unique datasheets.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The thing I don't really understand about the whole "Deathwing Terminators should be versatile, but normal ones are specialised" is that it actually makes no sense from an organisational perspective.

Think about it - the "normal" Chapters deploy Terminators sparingly, mostly as a supplement to larger forces (exceptions include Space Hulks and things like the Ultramarines' Deliverance of Thrax) - so with less Terminators available, surely they'd want them to be more versatile?

Compare and contrast to the Deathwing, who deploy en mass, and overwhelm targets with a wave of Terminator armoured bodies and the stench of ozone - surely, with more units at their disposal, they could afford to specialise and work at a macro level instead of a micro one?

Basically, surely it makes more sense for the Dark Angels to have the specialised specific squads, and the "normal" Chapters to need to cover more bases with mixed-weapon units? Not that I'd advocate for DA to have fixed squads, I just think we should get rid of the notion of fixed squads altogether.

I can see the argument for this, but this is where you and I are gonna disagree. Because I'll look at something like 'Guilliman decreed Tactical Terminators will shoot, and Assault terminators will hammer' (which was always low-key the in-universe reason for the units being split) and the DA saying 'yeah sod that, our Terminators do our own thing' as being a good enough reason for the units (rules and in-lore) to be operating in the different manners that they do. It's a very 40k thing, a decision made thousands of years ago that is followed to the letter, 'because that's what space-book says to do/they're more guidelines than actual rules' (in-lore).

Deathwing deploy on-mass, so each squad should be a toolbox. Ultramarine terminators are sent to do a specific job, thus they have a specific loadout. That's the difference I'm seeing, and that's why I think those units are separated as they are.

Now again, I can see your side on this. I don't think it's a good one because I can honestly see them removing options for everyone (including and especially models) instead of giving more options to everyone.

And as for the thing earlier where you pulled apart my answers with 'but they could do something like 'x' instead'. Yes they could. My answers are based on what is currently known, what they have currently done and shown to be done. I am making some educated guesses on 'why' these are the way they are, but if you want to rewrite the units to be more a 'this is how I'd have done it' fine. That's not how GW have done it, and right now it's not something I'm expecting them to do.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If the lore difference you really want to go with is "oh Deathwing are deployed in mass", then you should have a minimum you have to take the moment you want to use them.

I'd also add a limit to non Deathwing Terminators honestly. A big problem with the Chapters is how much GW blurs the line between them like with Scouts.

Whilst I can see what you mean, what if you want to play a game where you're actually taking the full 1st Company? I could be wrong, but don't most First Founders (barring Dropsite Massacre survivors) have a full compliment of Terminator Armour, but they just don't advocate deploying them all like the Dark Angels do?

Then you play with some stern/vanguard as well as Terminators. It's called a tradeoff.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Deathwing deploy on-mass, so each squad should be a toolbox. Ultramarine terminators are sent to do a specific job, thus they have a specific loadout. That's the difference I'm seeing, and that's why I think those units are separated as they are.

And for me, that's why it makes more sense for the DA to be specific (because they have multiple units), and the UM to be mixed (because they have to make their unit flexible).
But, that's probably just our perceptions on it.

Now again, I can see your side on this. I don't think it's a good one because I can honestly see them removing options for everyone (including and especially models) instead of giving more options to everyone.

Oh, if GW did go down the route of just removing kits and things, I wouldn't like that. Thing is, I don't think I'm arguing from a position of "what would GW do", more from a "what I'd like GW to do", which is, I suppose, the whole point of a personal proposal. In reality, I'm sure GW are fine how things are, but in my own magical make believe world, I'd like to hope my proposal could work too.

And as for the thing earlier where you pulled apart my answers with 'but they could do something like 'x' instead'. Yes they could. My answers are based on what is currently known, what they have currently done and shown to be done. I am making some educated guesses on 'why' these are the way they are, but if you want to rewrite the units to be more a 'this is how I'd have done it' fine. That's not how GW have done it, and right now it's not something I'm expecting them to do.

True - which is worth me reiterating, my viewpoint isn't from a "what GW have done and will likely do", it's a "let's assume I had full creative control to a certain degree - what would I do" kind of hypothetical. Obviously, I wouldn't want units getting deleted with no appropriate support, and just questioning "why" it's so essential that DA have a Codex when so many of their things are done in the core SM books.