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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been over this multiple times.

And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.

Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.

So yeah I am right.

CSMs can be recently treasonous renegades, they can be long term raiders who've had to resort to piracy for equipment, they can be time-lost marines from a forgotten age, they can be marines who have fallen into the worship of the dark gods but aren't particularly outstanding and so don't climb the ranks, they can be listless and distracted and not keep up with their warrior skills, etc. CSMs who survive 10 years of disloyalty do not all suddenly become uber-veterans deserving of improved stats. It doesn't work like that.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Xenomancers: I understand you have your biases regarding the other books. But the UM feels like cheating, too.

It's not bias. It is objective truth. Ultramarines are terrible compared to ironhands or IF.

Ultramarines are competitive don't get me wrong...they are not competitive against ironhands or IF....Youve got to get real. For all the squaking about marines being OP it is really just the superdoctrines of ironhands and IF and over abundance of power on traits...

IH and IF have easy power-combos, so they're popular for tournaments. That doesn't preclude UM feeling like cheating against the rest of what's out there. Overall I am not a fan of the supplements.

But this is off-topic, so let's move on.

Like I said. Youve been playing the game on hard mode. You turn down the difficulty and it just feels easy.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't even want to think how this will affect the cost. I mean, is wounds really the answer that CSM need? I would much rather my Bezerkers be more Bezerkery. I would much rather the powers of the gods that I am paying money to toss around actually do something other than give one model +1 something.

CSM needs to be more glass cannon. They need to be easier to be able to rip apart anything they can lay their hands on. They should be the melee super focused army that can't be stopped. Instead they are getting out meleed by green cockney mushrooms and paper elves.

??? A single WE berzerker effectively gets 10 S5/S6 attacks on the charge (15 if you use the fight again strat), they are tailor-made to lawnmower through orks and elves. Berzerkers already do an obscene amount of damage and having shock assault has made it even better, their damage output was never the problem it has always been surviving their trip getting into combat

 Galef wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, is wounds really the answer that CSM need?

No, it isn't THE answer. Most would agree that THE answer is going to involve points drops and something equivalent to Doctrines.
But 2W Cult marines is AN answer, specifically to the question of "What is the Chaos equivalent to Primaris"

-

I really feel this is NOT the answer. This would be like Sterngaurd and Vangaurd getting 2 wounds each.

 Galef wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, is wounds really the answer that CSM need?

No, it isn't THE answer. Most would agree that THE answer is going to involve points drops and something equivalent to Doctrines.
But 2W Cult marines is AN answer, specifically to the question of "What is the Chaos equivalent to Primaris"

-

They still all need two attacks at base as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been over this multiple times.

And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.

Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.

So yeah I am right.

CSMs can be recently treasonous renegades, they can be long term raiders who've had to resort to piracy for equipment, they can be time-lost marines from a forgotten age, they can be marines who have fallen into the worship of the dark gods but aren't particularly outstanding and so don't climb the ranks, they can be listless and distracted and not keep up with their warrior skills, etc. CSMs who survive 10 years of disloyalty do not all suddenly become uber-veterans deserving of improved stats. It doesn't work like that.

And then they suddenly lose all their Speeders and Drop Pods and Assault Cannons and somehow abandoned ALL organization from before...
Yeah I roll my eyes at that. A page dedicated to how to switch keywords would've been a more accurate way to show what you're talking about.

TJ Lannigan mentioned this on the Tizcan podcast. Not sure if he was the original, but he mentioned a lot of the stuff swirling around.

 Continuity wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't even want to think how this will affect the cost. I mean, is wounds really the answer that CSM need? I would much rather my Bezerkers be more Bezerkery. I would much rather the powers of the gods that I am paying money to toss around actually do something other than give one model +1 something.

CSM needs to be more glass cannon. They need to be easier to be able to rip apart anything they can lay their hands on. They should be the melee super focused army that can't be stopped. Instead they are getting out meleed by green cockney mushrooms and paper elves.

??? A single WE berzerker effectively gets 10 S5/S6 attacks on the charge (15 if you use the fight again strat), they are tailor-made to lawnmower through orks and elves. Berzerkers already do an obscene amount of damage and having shock assault has made it even better, their damage output was never the problem it has always been surviving their trip getting into combat

Yup, Berzerkers get into melee and they kill anything..
Getting them into melee on the other hand.

There's a few different questions worth asking here:

1)
Is there any 1 wound infantry in the game that costs more than 9 or 10 pts that is good? (Excluding new SM). If so, what makes it good?

2)
If the current CSM infantry units had the current loyalist traits and doctrines, would they be good? If yes, then they probably don't need major stat changes. (Not suggesting that they get the same stuff, just suggesting that its a decent test.)

For example, possessed right now are nearly good and can benefit from a lot of buffs, but they don't quite work out due to various issues. But if they had an extra trait like new SM, and could get an extra AP, would they be worth it? If noise marines had another -1 AP and a defensive trait would they be worth it?

If CSM were 12 points and could get re-roll 1's to wound, -1 ap, and some super doctrine bonus, they would be doing okay. Give them a new 2 bonus trait and they could be solid.

I think the answer will mostly be yes. Some units like Oblits may be broken with the full traits.


3)
What are CSM units really supposed to be even? From the lore, the breakdown should be something more like:

- Renegade/New Marine: These should be equivalent to loyalist tac marines, but with less training/discipline. So without Doctrines, but probably cheaper. These represent Red Corsairs, or new marines made by Black Legion or Iron Warriors.

- Legionnaire: These are basic marines of the Traitor Legions. They are thousands of years old and very experienced. They should be stronger than basic loyalists. Probably equivalent to veteran SM. These represent full black legion, word bearers, and other undivided legions.

- Legion veterans, aka chosen: As above, but even more elite.

- Cult marines: Veterans AND super gifted by the gods. They belong to the 4 mono god cult legions. Those legions could also contain some of the other marines types to represent less gifted or newer recruits.

So that's what we should have. But currently, the vanilla CSM profile isn't properly representing the Renegade/New marine or the Legionnaire. Its somwhere in between. And Chosen aren't really representing Legionnaires or Legion vets. Its also somewhere in between. So how could this be solved without adding new unit types?

Make the basic CSM even cheaper, but let proper legions purchase upgrades on it for a point or two per model, 3.5 codex style, to represent Legionnaries. And then do the same for Chosen.
Then to get something equivalent to loyalist doctrines, make it possible to buy Marks or veteran skills for everybody to give stat buffs along the line of -1 ap to melee or shooting, +1 A, +1 T, etc.
CSM overall should be able to achieve a strong statline than loyalists in some areas, but at greater cost and less flexibility than the doctrine system. Or with more restrictions (like penalties for mixing Marks in the same detachment unless you're black legion or word bearers.)

For example, possessed right now are nearly good and can benefit from a lot of buffs, but they don't quite work out due to various issues. But if they had an extra trait like new SM, and could get an extra AP, would they be worth it? If noise marines had another -1 AP and a defensive trait would they be

Not really, no.
They are too unreliable, to brittle, to buff reliant and too cp intensive

Possessed have potential and fall flat because randumb.

Not Online!!! wrote:

For example, possessed right now are nearly good and can benefit from a lot of buffs, but they don't quite work out due to various issues. But if they had an extra trait like new SM, and could get an extra AP, would they be worth it? If noise marines had another -1 AP and a defensive trait would they be

Not really, no.
They are too unreliable, to brittle, to buff reliant and too cp intensive

I think that you'll find that pure melee units don't work out, but ranged ones mostly do. And that's the same thing for loyalists for the most part, but they don't have anything like possessed. A chaos equivalent set of special rules that was geared at melee units could make them viable I think. Of course, there's overall issues with melee in 8th too, so that will complicate matters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been over this multiple times.

And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.

Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.

So yeah I am right.

I have to agree with Insectum on this one. Unless I'm missing your point.

If say death Guard for example doesn't recruit new members from renegade warbands or however than there is a finite number of them and they would be killed off eventually.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been over this multiple times.

And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.

Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.

So yeah I am right.

I have to agree with Insectum on this one. Unless I'm missing your point.

If say death Guard for example doesn't recruit new members from renegade warbands or however than there is a finite number of them and they would be killed off eventually.

There ARE finite Death Guard. Any Renegades associated with Death Guard are just that, associated, and wouldn't have access to so many Daemon Engines or lost all their equipment. It's a stupid silly inconsistency and has been for a while.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Possessed have potential and fall flat because randumb.

It's hard to botch D3+2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been over this multiple times.

And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.

Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.

So yeah I am right.

CSMs can be recently treasonous renegades, they can be long term raiders who've had to resort to piracy for equipment, they can be time-lost marines from a forgotten age, they can be marines who have fallen into the worship of the dark gods but aren't particularly outstanding and so don't climb the ranks, they can be listless and distracted and not keep up with their warrior skills, etc. CSMs who survive 10 years of disloyalty do not all suddenly become uber-veterans deserving of improved stats. It doesn't work like that.

And then they suddenly lose all their Speeders and Drop Pods and Assault Cannons and somehow abandoned ALL organization from before...
Yeah I roll my eyes at that. A page dedicated to how to switch keywords would've been a more accurate way to show what you're talking about.

When you cut ties with the various partners and institutions that have previously supplied you with the spare parts, fuel and equipment necessary to maintain and use your technologically advanced weapons and vehicles, you are quickly no longer able to field said equipment.

You sure as **** can raid some PDF forces for Autocannons, though.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been over this multiple times.

And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.

Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.

So yeah I am right.

CSMs can be recently treasonous renegades, they can be long term raiders who've had to resort to piracy for equipment, they can be time-lost marines from a forgotten age, they can be marines who have fallen into the worship of the dark gods but aren't particularly outstanding and so don't climb the ranks, they can be listless and distracted and not keep up with their warrior skills, etc. CSMs who survive 10 years of disloyalty do not all suddenly become uber-veterans deserving of improved stats. It doesn't work like that.

And then they suddenly lose all their Speeders and Drop Pods and Assault Cannons and somehow abandoned ALL organization from before...
Yeah I roll my eyes at that. A page dedicated to how to switch keywords would've been a more accurate way to show what you're talking about.

When you cut ties with the various partners and institutions that have previously supplied you with the spare parts, fuel and equipment necessary to maintain and use your technologically advanced weapons and vehicles, you are quickly no longer able to field said equipment.

You sure as **** can raid some PDF forces for Autocannons, though.

Totally. It's amazing how, once you go Renegade, you suddenly can't stock up on ammo for your Assault Cannons (which are common from their Marine foes) or your Techmarines suddenly cannot maintain your Grav weapons or your Speeders, and you can all the sudden, surprise surprise, gain all these Maulerfiends and Heldrakes and even all these Reaper Autocannons on your Terminators! Your Techmarines can't maintain your stuff but they can sure know how to make a mean grip for your Terminators to use Autocannons! Yeah and suddenly your Assault Marines become super scurry too!

Give me a frickin break.

Codex CSM represents the various warbands (notice I didn't use the word Legion on purpose) that have fallen completely to Chaos.

Also CSM stuff is a way for GW to differentiate Chaos from regular SM. One of the main complain that existed for a very long time was that CSM were just "Marines with spikes" without having their own true identity.

If you wanna play renegades that recently went rogue (but have not yet fallen to Chaos), play Codex SM and make your own renegade chapter / company / squad / whatever.

Now stop derailing this thread.

the fact is if chaos got everything marines did AND their own stuff, who the feth would play loyalist marines?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Totally. It's amazing how, once you go Renegade, you suddenly can't stock up on ammo for your Assault Cannons (which are common from their Marine foes) or your Techmarines suddenly cannot maintain your Grav weapons or your Speeders, and you can all the sudden, surprise surprise, gain all these Maulerfiends and Heldrakes and even all these Reaper Autocannons on your Terminators! Your Techmarines can't maintain your stuff but they can sure know how to make a mean grip for your Terminators to use Autocannons! Yeah and suddenly your Assault Marines become super scurry too!

Give me a frickin break.

You're presenting it as some day 1 change and it just doesn't matter. If some renegades fell 30 years ago and have daemon engines now, so what? If int he fluff they don't have those changes yet, so what? We don't need rules to reflect all these facets.

I personally think it would be a good step in the right direction. I don't want marines to be cheap and horde-like. They should be tough!

Quasistellar wrote:
I personally think it would be a good step in the right direction. I don't want marines to be cheap and horde-like. They should be tough!

"Cheap and horde like"? We must be playing with different codexes.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
I personally think it would be a good step in the right direction. I don't want marines to be cheap and horde-like. They should be tough!

"Cheap and horde like"? We must be playing with different codexes.

what he's saying is there comes a point where "just lower the points" is a poor answer because the army is supposed to feel elite.

Quasistellar wrote:
I personally think it would be a good step in the right direction. I don't want marines to be cheap and horde-like. They should be tough!

Nothing against this step.
Cult Marines are elite and should be comparable to the new and shiny Primaris Marines.
Everything depends on the pt costs of the Culties.

Cultists need to go back to 4 points because the current cost is insulting if you look at Imperial Guard or even Pox Walkers.

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
I personally think it would be a good step in the right direction. I don't want marines to be cheap and horde-like. They should be tough!

"Cheap and horde like"? We must be playing with different codexes.

what he's saying is there comes a point where "just lower the points" is a poor answer because the army is supposed to feel elite.

Maybe GW thinks it shouldn't be elite, at least at its core.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

For example, possessed right now are nearly good and can benefit from a lot of buffs, but they don't quite work out due to various issues. But if they had an extra trait like new SM, and could get an extra AP, would they be worth it? If noise marines had another -1 AP and a defensive trait would they be

Not really, no.
They are too unreliable, to brittle, to buff reliant and too cp intensive

I think that you'll find that pure melee units don't work out, but ranged ones mostly do. And that's the same thing for loyalists for the most part, but they don't have anything like possessed. A chaos equivalent set of special rules that was geared at melee units could make them viable I think. Of course, there's overall issues with melee in 8th too, so that will complicate matters.

Don't think so.
Further possessed have nothing to offer to us beyond the daemontag, so why not field the significantly less support needing cheaper Berzerkers.
The story would go a bit diffrent if possesed would get movement shenanigans and their support aswell ( looking at MoP, gp etc that don't have a jumppack or bike option)

Can someone post the points costs and statline of the various Cult Marines so we can compare them against other models?

Doubling the durability of a unit for no cost seems like an extremely sloppy, ill conceived way to "fix" a unit.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Can someone post the points costs and statline of the various Cult Marines so we can compare them against other models?

Doubling the durability of a unit for no cost seems like an extremely sloppy, ill conceived way to "fix" a unit.

It's not really doubling the durability, only against D1 damage, but most guns good against marines in general are D2 allready.

Rubric: 4 Guardsmen ppm




Khorne Berzerkers:4 Guardsmen without chainaxe 1/4th guardsmen most commonly with chain axe.



Plague Marine: 4 Guardsmen




Noise Marine: 3.75 Guardsmen . 1 Guardsmen for Sonic blaster. ( the normal bolter just beeing better now thanks to bolter discipline.)




Possesed, Simply here due to the debate above 5 Guardsmen




Measurements in Guardsmen Infantry squads in order to not violate Dakkas rules.

It's not really doubling the durability, only against D1 damage, but most guns good against marines in general are D2 allready.

I've seen this claimed a bunch of times now and it doesn't really make any sense. Most weapons are good against marines point for point, except perhaps new SM with some of the defensive buff traits. Marines don't have any special extra durability against small arms (again, point for point.) The second wound makes a big difference between getting gunned down by lasguns or bolters.

A lot of D2 weapons are going to be low volume of shot heavy weapons needed vs vehicles. Plasma melts marines of course, but its not spammed as heavily these days.

Bolters and lasguns are too good at gunning down elite infantry though, which is the main reason why elite infantry with one wound sees next to no play unless it's massively benefiting from force multipliers and stratagems.
Four free bolters kill exactly as many marines as the 11 point overcharged plasma gun, which is supposed to be a hard-counter to marines and has a chance to kill its firer.

"most weapons are good against marines" is not something good, it's something bad. A unit that can be killed efficiently by all weapons is never worth taking.