Why do some people think the Imperium is morally better then the Tau?

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**flandarz**

Obviously, the morally superior race in the galaxy are the Orkz. Prove me wrong.:p

**Apple Peel**

flandarz wrote:
Obviously, the morally superior race in the galaxy are the Orkz. Prove me wrong.:p

Really just depends on what you believe about forces of nature being evil and perhaps what constitutes nature.

**agurus1**

I think people are forgetting that humanity did try the whole “play nice with Xenos” thing during their golden age, and it is implied that there was a sort of federation style alliance system they had going with a lot of the xeno species out there. However, one of the major reasons modern humanity in the setting is so anti-Xenos is because the moment that golden age humanity stumbled, due to their conflict with the men of iron and the loss of cohesion via the Warp storms after slaaneshs birth, their former xeno allies on a massive scale began attacking, massacring and enslaving human population across the galaxy. Perhaps not all formerly friendly Xenos were involved but many were and certainly for humanity it would have seemed to be a horrifying wake up call that they had to look out for themselves first.

**SamusDrake**

About the same, although the Tau are younger and maturing faster than the Imperium. And they do have those sweet japanese anime mechs...gotta give'em points for those.

But the Tyranid...I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse...or delusions of morality.

**Red Marine**

flandarz wrote:
Obviously, the morally superior race in the galaxy are the Orkz. Prove me wrong.:p

Orks are best. This is hard to dispute. But how good are they at football? Eh?

**Insectum7**

Life on an Imperial world does not have to be brutal. "The Imperium" does not dictate that it needs to be so. See Ultramar. Life on individual worlds can be happy or awful, and that's really just up to the local government or circumstances. The caveats are that you must worship the Emperor (or at least not worship something NOT the Emperor) and that the world must meet it's tithe.

It CAN be awful and oppressive. But it can also be the opposite. The Imperium as a whole doesn't care, as long as you pay your taxes.

**Iracundus**

Insectum7 wrote:
Life on an Imperial world does not have to be brutal. "The Imperium" does not dictate that it needs to be so. See Ultramar. Life on individual worlds can be happy or awful, and that's really just up to the local government or circumstances. The caveats are that you must worship the Emperor (or at least not worship something NOT the Emperor) and that the world must meet it's tithe.

It CAN be awful and oppressive. But it can also be the opposite. The Imperium as a whole doesn't care, as long as you pay your taxes.

The Imperium may not directly dictate certain things but it might effectively indirectly select for them. For example, it may set tithe rates at a level that only harsh oppressive governments can reliably meet, which in effect selects for harsh oppressive governments since any government that did not tighten the screws on the population would eventually fail to meet its tithe requirements and get replaced.

Similarly, if the Administratum notices a world seems to be having a good quality of life for all concerned, it might raise the tithe level, concluding the world has more to give and therefore should contribute more.

**flandarz**

Apple Peel wrote:Really just depends on what you believe about forces of nature being evil and perhaps what constitutes nature.

I believe that, for something to be "good" or "evil", it has to have an understanding of the difference between good and evil, and choose to do one or the other. My original statement was just a joke, but applying this logic to the various Races, I can make a list of "most evil" to "least evil".

1) a tie between the Drukhari and Chaos. I don't think I really need to explain this one.

2) Necrons. These guys are just the worst. Put God-like entities into robots to murder everyone else, and are still trying to do just that.

3) a tie between the Tau and the Imperium. Just because you're doing gakky things "for the greater good" doesn't make them any less gakky. But, on an individual level, you can see people choose the better path. Both Factions have a bad case of "mostly decent people who are part of a gakky collective".

4) Orkz. These guy don't really view what they're doing as bad. Even the most beaten Grot just understands that this is how things are done, even if they resent their "superiors" for it. Still not exactly paragons of virtue, but not necessarily "evil".

5) Eldar. They aren't "good guys" per se (their "standard" view on other sapients is, frankly, appalling), but their "evil" doesn't seem to be out of malice. Just indifference. They also seem to be trying to "mend their ways", so I can respect that.

Disqualified) Tyranids. Let's be real: these guys aren't good. They aren't evil. They're effectively just mindless beasts, doing what their nature dictates. They're no more evil than a hurricane is evil.

Red Marine wrote:Orks are best. This is hard to dispute. But how good are they at football? Eh?

I feel like Orkz would take better to Rugby, or a rousing game of "Face Punch".

**Iracundus**

Tyranids, as a whole race, are not mindless though the lesser individual organisms might be. However the Hive Mind's view of things is on a vast scale beyond that of the individuals it consumes.

To the bacteria on your food, you might seem an monstrous uncaring entity, arguably "evil" from their point of view if they were conscious. You wouldn't even spend time considering the views of these bacteria though. You just want to eat your lunch.

**flandarz**

I suppose I should explain a bit on my view of "mindless". Basically, a "mindless" creature, to me, is one that acts entirely on instinct. Even the Hive Mind falls under this "umbrella", as it hasn't even considered the possibility that it may end up devouring all organic life in the universe one day. I don't even know if it has the capacity for such introspection. It exists solely to feed and reproduce, and while it may seem to be intelligent in how it fulfills those goals, I believe this is just us anthropomorphizing it.

Of course, at this point we could go into a philosophical debate over whether or not we are, ourselves, simply beings of pure instinct that have "put on airs", but that's probably best set to the side. I'll just say that, in my opinion, the Hive Mind and Tyranids aren't sapient on the same level as the other thinking races of the galaxy. Rather, they are more akin to an extremely complex ant, termite, or bee colony, which can appear to be guided "intelligently" even when acting on pure instinct.

**Platuan4th**

flandarz wrote:
I suppose I should explain a bit on my view of "mindless". Basically, a "mindless" creature, to me, is one that acts entirely on instinct. Even the Hive Mind falls under this "umbrella", as it hasn't even considered the possibility that it may end up devouring all organic life in the universe one day. I don't even know if it has the capacity for such introspection. It exists solely to feed and reproduce, and while it may seem to be intelligent in how it fulfills those goals, I believe this is just us anthropomorphizing it.

Of course, at this point we could go into a philosophical debate over whether or not we are, ourselves, simply beings of pure instinct that have "put on airs", but that's probably best set to the side. I'll just say that, in my opinion, the Hive Mind and Tyranids aren't sapient on the same level as the other thinking races of the galaxy. Rather, they are more akin to an extremely complex ant, termite, or bee colony, which can appear to be guided "intelligently" even when acting on pure instinct.

Except we have direct fluff confirmation that there's an thinking, sapient intelligence driving the Tyranid fleets beyond instinct and hunger. It's not anthropomorphizing, Imperium characters canonically have had psychic conversations with it.

**Iracundus**

In the background about the Tyranids over the RL years, there have been 2 competing themes by authors. One portrays the Hive Mind as a warp entity, arising from the collective of all Tyranids (articulated from about Epic Hive War and 2nd edition onwards). The other that it is "merely" a communication network or static generated by the communication activity of the Tyranids (first articulated in the 3rd edition Tyranid Codex, as this viewpoint was Sherman Bishop's). Over the years the fluff has see-sawed between these two depending on the author. More recently it seems we are heading back to the first one.

The following is from the short story Wraithflight by Guy Haley. The POV is Iyanna using her psychic senses while fighting a hive fleet. While an in-character POV and thus potentially fallible, it does pretty strongly point towards the Hive Mind as an entity:

Beyond the shield she saw the Great Dragon’s true form. Not the hideous intrusions into the mortal realm that swam the black star sea, nor as a Farseer might see it, as a great and braided cable of malicious fate dominating all the skein. The first was merely a part of the whole, the second psychic abstraction. What Iyanna instead saw was the reality of its soul.

It was a great shadow when seen from afar, a wave of dread and psychic blindness that preceded the hive fleet’s arrival. But the greatest shadows are cast by the brightest lights, and seen closely, the soul of the hive mind shone brighter than any sun.
She was so close now that she perceived the ridged topography of its mind, larger than star systems, an entity bigger than a god. It contemplated thoughts as large as continents, and spun plans more complex than worlds. It dreamed dreams that could not be fathomed. She felt small and afraid before it, but she did not let her fear cow her defiance.

Against this vista flickered the souls of eldar, their jewel-brightness dimmed by the incomparable glare of the Great Dragon. And this was but a tendril of the creature. The bulk of it stretched away, coils wrapped tight about the higher dimensions, joining in the distance to others, and then others again, until at a great confluence of the parts sat the terrible truth of the whole. She stared at its brilliance. Unlike her passionless dead warriors, who felt nought but the echoes of wrath at the sight, she was fascinated by the beauty on display. She thought, if only such a thing could be tamed it would drive out She Who Thirsts forever. If only its hunger was for things other than the meat and blood of worlds…

She ceased her speculation. Such an entity was entirely other, inimical to all life but its own, a giant animal intent only on its prey. There was no thought to its doings, no intellect. It was cunning. It exhibited signs of an emergent, mechanical intelligence, as evolution might appear to possess if sped to the rate of change the hive mind evinced. But there was no true intelligence to it. The hive mind was non-sentient.

...

She had the sense of an eye, slave to a great power. An intellect that dwarfed the Great Wheel of the galaxy. She opened her second sense, to find the Dragon looking at her with terrible regard. For aeons it seemed it held her in its gaze. And there was fury in that examination. The Dragon was angry, and it was angry with her. Not with the galaxy, or this sector, or her species. But with her personally. The promise of endless torment came from it, her very being enslaved to its ends and used against others, her body rebuilt over and again so that it might suffer the Dragon’s revenge.

So from this story, it seems Iyanna was mistaken in thinking the Hive Mind had no true intelligence or sentience. Though the Hive Mind normally does not seem to concern itself with individual enemies, it seems to have noticed and formed a particular vendetta (or so Iyanna at least perceives) after Iyanna scores yet another victory against the Tyranids.

**Da Boss**

It is frustrating to read these threads. 40K was created as an explciitly dark parody universe, following in the best traditions of stuff like 2000AD with Judge Dredd.
The Imperium has lots in common with real world fascist regimes, on purpose. Genocide, xenophobia, intolerance of difference, heavy use of propaganda, obsession with war. It also has lots in common with communist regimes- seizure of private property, unending bureaucracy, heavy use of propaganda, obsesssion with deviant thought from outside. The creators no doubt figured that the heavy, heavy brushstrokes would be enough for people not to consider the Imperium the "good guys", but I guess they overestimated people. There are no good guys in original 40K.

Of course the Imperium, in it's propaganda, claims what it does it "justified". That is what every such regime does, it is fundamental. Needing an external threat to hate is also fundamental to these regimes. (Edit to add: And yes, I know, the Imperium is ALSO inspired by the Holy Roman Empire. It has a lot of inspirations, from all over the place. That is what makes it such a good setting!)

Of course, the setting is now being written by people who grew up as fans of the original dark satire and some of them do not seem to understand how it was originally intended. Space Marines are unironically written as heroes rather than the lobotomised murderers they were originally. The setting is now written to justify the Imperium's POV rather than to poke fun at it. The writers seem pretty comfortable writing fascist fan fiction, and a lot of the fans seem pretty comfortable lapping it up. It is that hyper masculine "Only I will do what needs to be done" fantasy stripped of all empathy. Simple, brawny answers to complex questions.

Very disappointing.

In that regard, the Tau are somewhat odd. Added later than most, they had a specifically optimistic outlook. But the grimdark was self consciously built into them, with the mysteries surrounding the Ethereals and so on. And later writers had to make them "just as bad" as the Imperium so that people could "both sides" the fiction and not reflect on the fact that their mandollies fictional background is pretty horrific, and cheering them on is pretty horrific too.

**pm713**

agurus1 wrote:
I think people are forgetting that humanity did try the whole “play nice with Xenos” thing during their golden age, and it is implied that there was a sort of federation style alliance system they had going with a lot of the xeno species out there. However, one of the major reasons modern humanity in the setting is so anti-Xenos is because the moment that golden age humanity stumbled, due to their conflict with the men of iron and the loss of cohesion via the Warp storms after slaaneshs birth, their former xeno allies on a massive scale began attacking, massacring and enslaving human population across the galaxy. Perhaps not all formerly friendly Xenos were involved but many were and certainly for humanity it would have seemed to be a horrifying wake up call that they had to look out for themselves first.

That's just not true. Plenty of humans lived peacefully with their xenos friends and humanity wasn't close to a unified viewpoint on things. There were tyrant humans, peaceful humans, horrifying psykers, awful aliens and lovely aliens. The reason the Imperium is so anti Xenos is because the person who built it was a horrible xeno hating jackass.

Edit: The Tyranids definitely seem to be moving towards the Hive Mind having an awareness beyond just a communication thing. When Yriel stabs a Tyrant with the Spear of Twilight it tries to devour the Hive Mind and it hurts. Apparently for the first time in millenia.

**flandarz**

That's kind of disappointing, to be honest. To me, the most interesting thing about Nids was that they weren't like sapient races. They were a force of nature; a swarm of locusts eating and destroying for no reason other than instinct. If there's some overarching intelligence guiding them, then (in my opinion) there's not a lot of difference between them and, say, Daemons, other than motivation.

**Da Boss**

The trend in the game background at the moment is entirely toward super characters and so they will of course personify the Hive Mind to facillitate that.

I just ignore anything like that I don't like.

**pm713**

flandarz wrote:
That's kind of disappointing, to be honest. To me, the most interesting thing about Nids was that they weren't like sapient races. They were a force of nature; a swarm of locusts eating and destroying for no reason other than instinct. If there's some overarching intelligence guiding them, then (in my opinion) there's not a lot of difference between them and, say, Daemons, other than motivation.

There's always been an overall intelligence though. Tyranids aren't a natural thing, they use living things as weapons but they aren't natural because of that.

**flandarz**

From what I understand, the lore has always kinda been vague on Tyranid origins, so I can't really agree that they aren't "natural". At least not until it's verified that they are artificially created.

As for an "overall intelligence", from what Iracundus said, that's always been kind of inconsistent between writers. That said, I agree that the Hive Mind has always acted as both a communication system and a "guiding force" for the Tyrannids. But, for me, it has been before (and should be) more akin to the systems that eusocial insects have: a driving force without "intelligence" behind it. The ultimate form of natural selection and instinct. But, to each their own.

**AegisGrimm**

the Imperium falls into the "Heroes" category for one easy reason.

They (collectively) are the Human faction, and thus the more relatable (and the one which the most fluff is written about). The Empire of the Old World were not the good guys either, but still labelled as such.

**Excommunicatus**

The IoM has nothing at all in common with any real-world Communist regimes, beyond the entirely superficial.

Not even Stalinism.

**agurus1**

pm713 wrote:
agurus1 wrote:
I think people are forgetting that humanity did try the whole “play nice with Xenos” thing during their golden age, and it is implied that there was a sort of federation style alliance system they had going with a lot of the xeno species out there. However, one of the major reasons modern humanity in the setting is so anti-Xenos is because the moment that golden age humanity stumbled, due to their conflict with the men of iron and the loss of cohesion via the Warp storms after slaaneshs birth, their former xeno allies on a massive scale began attacking, massacring and enslaving human population across the galaxy. Perhaps not all formerly friendly Xenos were involved but many were and certainly for humanity it would have seemed to be a horrifying wake up call that they had to look out for themselves first.

That's just not true. Plenty of humans lived peacefully with their xenos friends and humanity wasn't close to a unified viewpoint on things. There were tyrant humans, peaceful humans, horrifying psykers, awful aliens and lovely aliens. The reason the Imperium is so anti Xenos is because the person who built it was a horrible xeno hating jackass.

Edit: The Tyranids definitely seem to be moving towards the Hive Mind having an awareness beyond just a communication thing. When Yriel stabs a Tyrant with the Spear of Twilight it tries to devour the Hive Mind and it hurts. Apparently for the first time in millenia.

I think we have only two examples in the lore of human+Xenos civilizations that survived to the great crusade time period in the galaxy that’s not a ringing endorsement of how well humans and Xenos got along during old night.

**Da Boss**

Excommunicatus wrote:
The IoM has nothing at all in common with any real-world Communist regimes, beyond the entirely superficial.

Not even Stalinism.

Pfft okay. That statement is way too over the top and categorical to take seriously. My Romanian boss who grew up under Communism would disagree.

**Insectum7**

Iracundus wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Life on an Imperial world does not have to be brutal. "The Imperium" does not dictate that it needs to be so. See Ultramar. Life on individual worlds can be happy or awful, and that's really just up to the local government or circumstances. The caveats are that you must worship the Emperor (or at least not worship something NOT the Emperor) and that the world must meet it's tithe.

It CAN be awful and oppressive. But it can also be the opposite. The Imperium as a whole doesn't care, as long as you pay your taxes.

The Imperium may not directly dictate certain things but it might effectively indirectly select for them. For example, it may set tithe rates at a level that only harsh oppressive governments can reliably meet, which in effect selects for harsh oppressive governments since any government that did not tighten the screws on the population would eventually fail to meet its tithe requirements and get replaced.

Similarly, if the Administratum notices a world seems to be having a good quality of life for all concerned, it might raise the tithe level, concluding the world has more to give and therefore should contribute more.

Sure, but again we have the example of Ultramar. the Imperium is a supremely powerful regime, but it doesn't dictate horrible oppression and living circumstances per se. Inidividuals or institutions with power within the Imperial apparatus have the authority whether or not to oppress. The sin of the Imperium is more that it doesn't protect the rights of citizens, generally speaking, and therefore citizens are unprotected against horrible corruption and oppression. "The Imperium" doesn't really care. Which can be twisted and awful in it's own way, but weirdly indirect. In terms of fictional power bases it's sort of unique, to my knowledge.

**Desubot**

Apple Peel wrote:
flandarz wrote:
Obviously, the morally superior race in the galaxy are the Orkz. Prove me wrong.:p

Really just depends on what you believe about forces of nature being evil and perhaps what constitutes nature.

If anything its the most neutral of races in the 40k universe. that and the nids.

**Excommunicatus**

Da Boss wrote:
Excommunicatus wrote:
The IoM has nothing at all in common with any real-world Communist regimes, beyond the entirely superficial.

Not even Stalinism.

Pfft okay. That statement is way too over the top and categorical to take seriously. My Romanian boss who grew up under Communism would disagree.

I don't care. They're wrong too.

And apparently I only have to find two people from the Bloc or CCCP to agree with me to 'win'. Or cite the ca. 80% of the electorate who voted AGAINST the dissolution of the CCCP in March, '91.

The IoM, beyond the entirely superficial, has nothing at all to do with any real-life Communist regime.

Does that wording work better for you?

**blood reaper**

Excommunicatus wrote:
The IoM has nothing at all in common with any real-world Communist regimes, beyond the entirely superficial.

Not even Stalinism.

This. The Imperium of Man does not have any sort of real equivalency with the Soviet Union, nor even the most totalitarian of the People's Democracies/Socialist States (i.e., even the DPRK or Ceausescu's Romania are tremendously liberal compared to much of the Imperium of Man. Its economy, its military, its government structure, it basic ideology are vastly different from any country running under a brand of Marxist Leninism. If you unironically think otherwise, read Is the Red Flag Flying.

Anyone who cites 'Commissars' btw is revealing their lack of education.

**Iracundus**

Insectum7 wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Life on an Imperial world does not have to be brutal. "The Imperium" does not dictate that it needs to be so. See Ultramar. Life on individual worlds can be happy or awful, and that's really just up to the local government or circumstances. The caveats are that you must worship the Emperor (or at least not worship something NOT the Emperor) and that the world must meet it's tithe.

It CAN be awful and oppressive. But it can also be the opposite. The Imperium as a whole doesn't care, as long as you pay your taxes.

The Imperium may not directly dictate certain things but it might effectively indirectly select for them. For example, it may set tithe rates at a level that only harsh oppressive governments can reliably meet, which in effect selects for harsh oppressive governments since any government that did not tighten the screws on the population would eventually fail to meet its tithe requirements and get replaced.

Similarly, if the Administratum notices a world seems to be having a good quality of life for all concerned, it might raise the tithe level, concluding the world has more to give and therefore should contribute more.

Sure, but again we have the example of Ultramar. the Imperium is a supremely powerful regime, but it doesn't dictate horrible oppression and living circumstances per se. Inidividuals or institutions with power within the Imperial apparatus have the authority whether or not to oppress. The sin of the Imperium is more that it doesn't protect the rights of citizens, generally speaking, and therefore citizens are unprotected against horrible corruption and oppression. "The Imperium" doesn't really care. Which can be twisted and awful in it's own way, but weirdly indirect. In terms of fictional power bases it's sort of unique, to my knowledge.

Ultramar is a Space Marine domain and thus not under direct control of the Administratum and has no specific tithe requirements. The governments of the planets under the Ultramarines do not have the proverbial gun next to their head with respect to having to pay heavy tithes. The Ultramarines can set whatever levels of resource or personnel extraction they want, and which appear to be far more sustainable and lenient than what the Administratum would do.

**pm713**

flandarz wrote:
From what I understand, the lore has always kinda been vague on Tyranid origins, so I can't really agree that they aren't "natural". At least not until it's verified that they are artificially created.

As for an "overall intelligence", from what Iracundus said, that's always been kind of inconsistent between writers. That said, I agree that the Hive Mind has always acted as both a communication system and a "guiding force" for the Tyrannids. But, for me, it has been before (and should be) more akin to the systems that eusocial insects have: a driving force without "intelligence" behind it. The ultimate form of natural selection and instinct. But, to each their own.

You want to explain how Tyranids would appear naturally then? It's not exactly common for a species to have absolutely no regard for its own life and live to serve its own predator.

**flandarz**

I'm not really sure which "predator" the Nids are serving, but there are lots of examples of species which sacrifice individuals for the good of the whole. Bees, for example, have evolved to literally eviscerate themselves in defense of the colony. This sort of behavior is most prevalent in eusocial insects, which share many similarities with Tyranids.

But, even if you ignore the natural instances of this behavior on Earth, you have to remember that Tyranids aren't even from our galaxy. The pressures of natural selection on their homeworld could have been quite different from the (relatively) idyllic world that we know. There's simply no evidence in the lore to suggest that Tyranids are an artificially created race, and until there is, any argument that suggests such is just speculation.

**Excommunicatus**

Except for all of the many, many, many, many insect species who do have members who have utterly no regard for (or concept of) their own life and who live and die to serve their colony/queen/whatever.

Who all evolved naturally.