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Surprised no one has reposted this for discussion. Maybe it's the Marine Fatigue ©.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/12/faith-fury-chapter-focus-black-templarsgw-homepage-post-2/

I personally am excited for these rules. Less so for having to buy Faith and Fury to fill out the Marine codex suppliments, but GW gonna GW.

I would be excited if we got an all new Black Templar range update, but it's just rules so I can't be bothered. They'll probably be obsolete within a year anyway.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
They'll probably be obsolete within a year anyway.

That's optimistic. I'd give it less than 6 months with the way 8E has been so far

-

The new stuff isn't really that, well, great. It's good, but you can basically have 1 character be an anti-psycher unit, and you have no other psychic defense, unless I'm missing something about BT. Never played them.

This basically reminds me of White scars, only without the emphasis on Bikes.

Rules are pretty meh in all honesty, there will be no rejoicing from me unless their Vows/Litanies are good.

Wow I was expecting more "grrr, Marines getting more content in an expansion, where's all the Xenos content?", not people being down on a popular chapter getting rules. Am I the only one looking at three units of melee Veterans piling out of Crusader with immunity to overwatch and thinking "wow, that's kind of silly"? No other chapter can spread immunity to overwatch around that broadly.

@Fezzik, BTs used to just have an anti-psycher strategem and a 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds in the psychic phase iirc. They'll probably keep the tactic if history is any indication and their 5+++ lost the "in the psychic phase" qualifier, layering on another Deny test makes them one of the better anti-psycher Marine factions.

People aren't down on getting new rules, we're down because we've been burned before. I'm cautiously optimistic based on the stuff we've seen so far, but I'm waiting for the full rules before making any judgments.

Difficult to get excited about something that's no longer supported and has come to the end of its life span.

I'm referring to Classic Space Marines in general if it isn't obvious. The fact that I even have to call them 'classic' breaks my heart.

That's nice BT get Traits and Relics. Eldar got neither of those. Remind me why that is?

 oni wrote:
Difficult to get excited about something that's no longer supported and has come to the end of its life span.

I'm referring to Classic Space Marines in general if it isn't obvious. The fact that I even have to call them 'classic' breaks my heart.

I'm not sure why you think this way when old marines are plenty good and other characters have not been kicked into Primaris mode.

I second what Oni said. I just can’t be bothered to care about an obviously dead line of miniatures.

I got burned hard when they killed Fantasy. I’m not making the mistake of investing in something GW will not be supporting again.

I am cautiously optimistic about the upcoming changes. The previews had some good and meh, but I get the feeling that the changes will be very fluffy for BT, which I appreciate.

pm713 wrote:
That's nice BT get Traits and Relics. Eldar got neither of those. Remind me why that is?

This isn't an Eldar thread. Take it someplace else please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:
Difficult to get excited about something that's no longer supported and has come to the end of its life span.

I'm referring to Classic Space Marines in general if it isn't obvious. The fact that I even have to call them 'classic' breaks my heart.

I'm not sure why you think this way when old marines are plenty good and other characters have not been kicked into Primaris mode.

Agreed. The classic SM troop isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Maybe in the future, but not today. I think the BT range not getting any Primaris upgrades will put some strength behind that argument as well.

It's a valid question. Another one is why put BT with Chaos rather than with SoB? It's an odd pairing.

As a BT player, my take on the teaser reveals.
-the Bt rules seems one dimensionally geared towards CC
-the relic i wont use because my captain has lightning claws.
-the land raider crusader strat will never see use (driving up close to the enemy with it to unload assult passengers will mean death or lockdown for it,or enemy just walks away).
-the super CD will not see use in any of my games because assult troops are dead or have allready won by round 3.
-The warlord trait is good.
-the unique litany might be ok but it seems excessive. The 6 ones available are allready good.

The one good build i could see get some use is to get one big squad of deepstriking heavy hitting infantry like terminators, supported by chaplain with bike giving +2charge. The rest of the army clear screens. Ive heard rumours of a bt strat that allows one squad to count as assult doctrine earlier than turn 3.

I honestly can not see the appeal in those rules. Does not seem to give very interactive games. Except the warlord trait, any funky BT strategies can probably be achieved using pure marine codex only.

I would be surprised if the BT didn’t get the stratagem that lets them get the benefit of the assault doctrine early.

pm713 wrote:It's a valid question. Another one is why put BT with Chaos rather than with SoB? It's an odd pairing.

I made no comment on its validity. This isn't the thread to discuss or debate why one faction got A and the other got B.

It's not an odd pairing of CSM and BT, and the SOB are included in this volume of the event. BT is one of the most hyper agressive chapters when it comes to going after any of the Imperium's enemies, and the traitor legions even more so.

Gitdakka wrote:As a BT player, my take on the teaser reveals.
-the Bt rules seems one dimensionally geared towards CC
-the relic i wont use because my captain has lightning claws.
-the land raider crusader strat will never see use (driving up close to the enemy with it to unload assult passengers will mean death or lockdown for it,or enemy just walks away).
-the super CD will not see use in any of my games because assult troops are dead or have allready won by round 3.
-The warlord trait is good.
-the unique litany might be ok but it seems excessive. The 6 ones available are allready good.

The one good build i could see get some use is to get one big squad of deepstriking heavy hitting infantry like terminators, supported by chaplain with bike giving +2charge. The rest of the army clear screens. Ive heard rumors of a bt strat that allows one squad to count as assult doctrine earlier than turn 3.

I honestly can not see the appeal in those rules. Does not seem to give very interactive games. Except the warlord trait, any funky BT strategies can probably be achieved using pure marine codex only.

-BT fluff should be geared toward CC. They are one of the most aggressive and in your face Chapters of SM. If you are going for max dakka, you shouldn't be going with BT.
-The relic is good, not awesome. You can add it to other characters outside of your captain. Interesting move to have the cap with LC, but then again sometimes I will field a LT with them.
-I want to agree that the LC strat won't see use, but we will see. I dont think you have to get THAT close with the LC to use it. You get 3" from the disembark, then the 5" move (assuming Termies, because what else am I putting in the LC but a group of TH/SS troops?) so you have effectively 8" move before you have to worry about the charge, and the LC can move into a better position after it drops off the payload.
-The current litany selection is pretty good, but nothing wrong in getting something better for BT flavor. We don't get anything in the way of casters, so this is a place we should be able to shine.

Not sure how you don't see the appeal. Hard to give final judgement one way or another before the full release, but I think overall the teaser has been a net positive.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I would be surprised if the BT didn’t get the stratagem that lets them get the benefit of the assault doctrine early.

There was mention in the rumor mill that there would be a strat that allowed BT units to stop a unit they are locked in with from disengaging. I am sure we would see something that would let BT get to the assault doc faster.

Odd thought: Is BT not going primaris because of Cawl being tainted by heretical stuff, or did BT go primaris and I missed it?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Odd thought: Is BT not going primaris because of Cawl being tainted by heretical stuff, or did BT go primaris and I missed it?

BT *have* Primaris, but it doesn't mean they're all Primaris. As far as we know, nearly all canon Chapters accepted Primaris Marines, to some degree or another.

We are still looking at the same metal / Finecast (giggle) heroes as before with nothing new so it BT may not see much love.
I was all excited to see the Fist Codex not contain anything on BT thinking they may get their own supplement (I am so naive).

I believe the word is not "classic" marines but "squat" marines.

I am stuffing everything Primaris into Ultra-marines and finishing up all my old stuff in my BT army.
They are both sufficiently "pure" to get along.

You know someone at GW actually thought that Land Raider Strat was good. Let that sink in for a moment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You know someone at GW actually thought that Land Raider Strat was good. Let that sink in for a moment.

GW: You know what players want right now?

Playtester: Primaris Drop Pods and new Necrons?

GW: LAND RAIDER CRUSADERS!

Playtester: Wait, wh...

GW: PUT THAT IN THE BOOK! THEY USE CRUSADERS!

Marketing: Uh, those are online only models, I'm fairly positive no one even makes them any more...

GW: DID I STUTTER?

I mean, we did want landraiders, we just wanted land raiders that are good. Just like how I want terminators to be good, and crusader squads to be good, and essentially be able to run the cool looking stuff marines are known for but you can't really run because Primaris make them a joke and should've been what regular marines got in the first place. I understand that there are new players who don't even know what a land raider is but that's a classic unit and dammit if I want to run 3 in a list I'm gonna do it. And while I'm gonna do it because they look cool it would be nice to know they're not completely useless and there are some ways to use them. Of course, even without anything added, loyalist marines have it way better than chaos marines do when it comes to the classic vehicles. I still can't figure out why chaos landraiders cost 20 more points for example.

I also cant wait to read how the black Templars are super accommodating and had no issues accepting Primaris marines whatsoever. Because that's totally what they would do, and not get absolutely pissed that someone suggested you could improve on the Emperor's work. But I'll get used to it. Can't be any worse than the fall of Cadia with them working alongside xenos.

Despite the salt, I really am excited for it, but I was already buying the book for alpha legion. I'm excited to have my black Templar army as a painting project and noob army so I have something that doesn't curb stomp people. That should tell you my confidence in the rules. It looks to be very thematic rules at least so thats a plus, I've yet to see one that I went "well that's stupid, Templar wouldn't use X". Templar are a classic 40k army, pretty much the antithesis to the Primaris aesthetic, which means it's good to see them being supported. Not only that, most of the promotional material shows old models so that's heartening. Alongside the sisters it gives hope that the classic grimdark look isn't gone from everyone at least.

Random side note, I'm not banking on BT getting the strat that keeps stuff from falling back. Night Lords got one and I could easily see the rumor monger mixing up which army actually got that ability.

The rules previewed so far seem fluffy and okay-ish power wise.

I don't think any long time BT player is invested in them for the competitive aspect, as they haven't been top of the meta since their initial sub-codex in Armageddon, so that should not be a problem or disappoint too many people.

As an ex BT player I want to say that I would rather had an updated Emperor's champion model and an upgrade sprue for Primaris, than an extra supplement.

Let's face it, rules will change sooner or later, but models stay for several editions


Edit: BT are definitely showing that "classic" Marines are not going anywhere soon. None of their rules so far promote anything Primaris more than the other way around.

Ironically the Crusader is the only LR I own, I bought it in 8th, and it's seen more table time than my Repulsor and Executioner put together.

Doctrin that starts to work from turn 3 onwards, seems really bad. Specialy when there are armies that use theirs from turn 1.

I don't know much about other stuff. LR stuff seems strange. Maybe GW is planing to make new land raider crusaders with new set of rules.

pm713 wrote:
That's nice BT get Traits and Relics. Eldar got neither of those. Remind me why that is?

Loyalty is its own reward. Watching xenos and heretic players get dabbed on is one of GWs favorite past-times. Mine as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You know someone at GW actually thought that Land Raider Strat was good. Let that sink in for a moment.

In what way is that stratagem bad? It's 1 CP for immunity to overwatch and -1 to hit. Even with the obvious limitations it's not in any way bad.

 Saber wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You know someone at GW actually thought that Land Raider Strat was good. Let that sink in for a moment.

In what way is that stratagem bad? It's 1 CP for immunity to overwatch and -1 to hit. Even with the obvious limitations it's not in any way bad.

It's bad because Land Raiders already aren't very good and because you have to have your Land Raider sit around for a turn letting the enemy move away. It relies on using a transport to assault enemies, and that's not a good thing without special rules in 8th edition.

pm713 wrote:
That's nice BT get Traits and Relics. Eldar got neither of those. Remind me why that is?

Black Templar have a chapter tactic in codex space marines, everyone knew they'd get their own supplemental material, this isn't a suprise so why do you act like it is?

 Saber wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You know someone at GW actually thought that Land Raider Strat was good. Let that sink in for a moment.

In what way is that stratagem bad? It's 1 CP for immunity to overwatch and -1 to hit. Even with the obvious limitations it's not in any way bad.

The limitations are exactly WHY it is bad. If you ignore the limitations on anything, anything would be good.