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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Huginn wrote:

I don' think there will be any crossover with AoS. The new steampunk dwarfs and the older more traditional beardy armoured guys just don't mix.

Really, cause they'd fit in pretty well with the Engineer Guilds' younger members who are responsible for the wackier contraptions that the Ol' Grumblers disliked.

Maybe a couple of the units, but I don't see how armored plated, steampunk tophats fit in with the overall dwarf aesthetic.
The Dwarfs did have zeppelins though in the game already (FW only), and there are gyrocopters, so there is some precedence at least.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Once again, they're not "fish elves". There's also literally nothing preventing them from having existed, seeing as how Mathlaan(the Idoneth's deity) was around in The World That Was as well.

They kind of are though? Isn't the lore behind the Iodeth that they are an attempt by Malekith to bring back the elves, but it went horribly wrong and they turned into those Falmer like things instead?
Chronologically speaking, they wouldn't exist in the Old World because they were created after the destuction of the old world.
We're more likely to see Vampire Coast get a full army release, to cash in on Total Warhammer's success.

Dwarves in the Old World could have gone full steam punk in a few years IF they wanted too. However their society basically kept a massive hand on technological advance and blocked them. That was one of the big parts of the Spirit of Grungni (big airship from Gotrek and Felix stories) in that it was a massive middle finger by the engineer to the Dwarven Engineer Guild of the time.

Also don't forget that Dwarves were already sailing the high seas in solid iron dreadnought battleships and steam paddle ships.


In that regard they are not actually that far behind the Dwarves of the Realms - granted the KO have some new fancy air lifting bubbles, though I'd sort of argue that that's just a fluffy way to have airships without requiring massive air sacs above the model (which would be unfun to field, impossible to transport and costly)




Idoneth's main curse is that their souls wither and die leaving them as blank-ilke husks. Alive but not "alive" with the spark of life. They are basically soul vampires who feast on souls of others. They fled to the seas and used powerful magics to live under the sea; however they aren't "fish aelves" and are not of the sea. I also suspect that without magic their undersea civilisation would crumble.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Once again, they're not "fish elves". There's also literally nothing preventing them from having existed, seeing as how Mathlaan(the Idoneth's deity) was around in The World That Was as well.

They kind of are though? Isn't the lore behind the Iodeth that they are an attempt by Malekith to bring back the elves, but it went horribly wrong and they turned into those Falmer like things instead?

You literally could not get anything more wrong than you did.
They were an attempt by Teclis to create a new race of Aelves. It went well, for a time, until his creation went a bit nutsy thanks to having been slowly digested by Slaanesh for time unknowable and having been brought back into Hysh(Realm of Light), they got sensory overload flashbacks.

They retreated to the depths of the seas in Hysh, and started effectively isolating themselves even from each other.
Blah,blah, blah cut to 'the now'(as they were created, retreated, colonized the other Realms via the 'Whirlways'[submerged Realmgates from lost/destroyed civilizations or created by them] and then existed long enough to pass into myths and legends to the other races) and they've got an issue where a large chunk of the population(Namarti[which means 'Half-Soul']) are born with weak souls and it's affected them in the ways we've seen(the lack of eyes, some lack nostrils, some can't breathe oxygen, some have brittle bones--but the big one is lack of eyes) in the fluff. Cut to the raiding, blah blah blah.

TLDR:
Not fish elves. They're just elves who live in the seas.

Chronologically speaking, they wouldn't exist in the Old World because they were created after the destuction of the old world.

Cool, then neither would Archaon's "full throttle" Dorghar, the Varanguard, anything Sylvaneth that aren't Dryads or Treemen, and probably quite a few other things too.

Considering how the new Dorghar looks like crap compared to horse Dorghar, I don't think that's a bad thing.

Also a few units =/= entire faction.
You can get away with keeping a big beetle in the wood elves army, and Varanguard can be passed off as fancier looking chosen.
An entire race of sea elves? That's just pushing it, and does screw with continuity a little.


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 Overread wrote:



Idoneth's main curse is that their souls wither and die leaving them as blank-ilke husks. Alive but not "alive" with the spark of life. They are basically soul vampires who feast on souls of others. They fled to the seas and used powerful magics to live under the sea; however they aren't "fish aelves" and are not of the sea. I also suspect that without magic their undersea civilisation would crumble.

Wait, but then why would they hang out in the sea if they need magic? Isn't that a liability? Like, what happens if that magic gets dispelled, wouldn't that be a one hit ko?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Considering how the new Dorghar looks like crap compared to horse Dorghar, I don't think that's a bad thing.

Sure.

Also a few units =/= entire faction.

Tell that to Ogre Kingdoms.

You can get away with keeping a big beetle in the wood elves army.

No, you really can't.
Because you know who's riding that "big beetle"?
The High Elf Everqueen. It was a whoooooooooooole plot thread for The End Times, where Ariel(the Wood Elf Queen/Avatar of Isha) was dying and the twins Naestra and Arahan brought Alarielle to Athel Loren to save her, Isha's power went into Alarielle and she became the Avatar of Life.

An entire race of not-elves? That's just pushing it.

If only there were massive chunks of some liquid material and a deity that had followers and was worshiped by all of the 'Big Three' Elf factions...and even some human factions(Marienburg!) to boot.

Mathlaan was an Old World deity. He's dead in Age of Sigmar but very much was a mysterious bit in the Old World. The biggest moment we got with Mathlaan was in End Times Khaine, where Sea Lord Aislinn was tortured nearly to death by Lokhir Felheart, threw a curse on the Dark Elves and then threw his body overboard to get Mathlaan to bring his wrath down on the Black Fleet.

Wait, but then why would they hang out in the sea if they need magic? Isn't that a liability? Like, what happens if that magic gets dispelled, wouldn't that be a one hit ko?

In order for 'that magic' to get dispelled, people need to:
-Know where they are
-Know how to get there
-Know how the spells work
-Know that the Idoneth even exist

Even with the Idoneth fighting alongside the forces of Sigmar, people still think that they are a myth or a fairy tale.

The whole reason why they 'hang out in the sea', is literally because they like the darkness and the lack of sound. They're still traumatized from having been effectively tortured while their souls were being digested by Slaanesh itself for time unknowable.
Going on a simple raid is a Big Deal for any Idoneth. The Akhelians(warrior caste) and Namarti(the 'lesser' caste) are the ones who mainly go on these raids, with the Isharaan(mage/scholar caste) coming alongside to help muffle emotions, sound, etc.

I know who Mathlaan is, I just don't see how a race that was created after the destruction of the old world is somehow present in the old world serving a sea god that was dead by the time of their creation.

I'm just curious, but how do we know anything will really come out of this, couldn't they just be gauging interest? A lot of things can change in three years time.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The High Elf Everqueen. It was a whoooooooooooole plot thread for The End Times, where Ariel(the Wood Elf Queen/Avatar of Isha) was dying and the twins Naestra and Arahan brought Alarielle to Athel Loren to save her, Isha's power went into Alarielle and she became the Avatar of Life.

Fair enough. One could just say its not Alarielle riding it, but that would be odd, yes.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I know who Mathlaan is, I just don't see how a race that was created after the destruction of the old world is somehow present in the old world serving a sea god that was dead by the time of their creation.

Simply put, you're not actually trying to see then. You just want to keep your blinders on.

There's ruined civilizations in the seas of the World That Was. That was always a big plot point for Lokhir Felheart, whose squid mask came from ruins guarded by the 'devolved descendants of the Lizardmen'.

The oceans of the World That Was, much like our own, aren't exactly 100% explored.


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The High Elf Everqueen. It was a whoooooooooooole plot thread for The End Times, where Ariel(the Wood Elf Queen/Avatar of Isha) was dying and the twins Naestra and Arahan brought Alarielle to Athel Loren to save her, Isha's power went into Alarielle and she became the Avatar of Life.

Fair enough. One could just say its not Alarielle riding it, but that would be odd, yes.

And then let's talk about the Spite and Tree Revenants.

Both of them came about because Alarielle told stories of the Elves to the Sylvaneth. Tree Revenants fight and look like the 'guardians' of old(read: Wood Elves).
Spite Revenants are supposed to be twisted echoes of them.

And Durthu would be back to being the only Treelord wielding a sword.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I know who Mathlaan is, I just don't see how a race that was created after the destruction of the old world is somehow present in the old world serving a sea god that was dead by the time of their creation.

Simply put, you're not actually trying to see then. You just want to keep your blinders on.

There's ruined civilizations in the seas of the World That Was. That was always a big plot point for Lokhir Felheart, whose squid mask came from ruins guarded by the 'devolved descendants of the Lizardmen'.

The oceans of the World That Was, much like our own, aren't exactly 100% explored.

Yes, I acknowledge that is quite possible that there's a deep sea race of something in the old world, its just that having a faction of models that look like idoneth but aren't really idoneth is kind of...odd, I guess?
It would be like if GW suddenly decided to introduce Tau as they are in 40k to the Horus Heresy, even though they shouldn't be around at that point. Even if they were named something other than Tau, they'd still be Tau.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I know who Mathlaan is, I just don't see how a race that was created after the destruction of the old world is somehow present in the old world serving a sea god that was dead by the time of their creation.

They wouldn't. Nor fyreslayers nor flying dwarves

 Togusa wrote:
I'm just curious, but how do we know anything will really come out of this, couldn't they just be gauging interest? A lot of things can change in three years time.

because gw has said its coming

Just occurred to me that I marked on plastic sisters in the community survey and then GW released plastic sisters. In the Iast community survey I put down WFB in a number of places and here we have this announcement.

I'm not claiming any special powers - but if others did the same as I did... I do wonder to what degree this announcement was driven by feedback in the last survey?

My bet on new things coming are Tomb Kings and Bretonnia. Mostly because those have disappeared in AoS.

terry wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'm just curious, but how do we know anything will really come out of this, couldn't they just be gauging interest? A lot of things can change in three years time.

because gw has said its coming

To be fair, it wouldn't be the first time GW announced something then dropped it.

 Aesthete wrote:
Just occurred to me that I marked on plastic sisters in the community survey and then GW released plastic sisters. In the Iast community survey I put down WFB in a number of places and here we have this announcement.

I'm not claiming any special powers - but if others did the same as I did... I do wonder to what degree this announcement was driven by feedback in the last survey?

I wonder how much they had to wade through before they realised enough people wanted this.
I love the survey thing GW have going, it seems like they really want to sell us things enough of us say we want to buy.

I just hope enough people are talking about Mordheim.

 Yodhrin wrote:
And to the folks saying it doesn't matter if they mix stuff - it really kinda does. The footprint of the regiments affects how many you can physically fit on the board. It affects how they move, how they turn. A 5x4 block of 20mm bases is not interchangeable with a 5x4 block of 25mm bases. Not if they expect it to play like WHFB and, again, why bother making a product specifically designed to appeal to WHFB diehards and then make it nothing like WHFB?

Square bases and base sizes are pretty integral to the way the game worked. It determined how many figures could fight in a combat. When directing strikes at specific targets, only those figures touching those models (including corner-to-corner) could fight. Depending on the edition (I think), it was also possible to have heroes of different base sizes join a unit, actually within the unit if that worked out with base sizes (Slann in Temple Guard being a good example). Creating movement trays for all those eventualities for round and oval bases should be fun, and then give those little markings to show where the theoretical corners would be for each base?

Kanluwen wrote:All that aside, maybe just maybe this is why a bunch of the old/outdated-ish plastics went away? Glade Guard desperately needed a refresher, as did the Glade Riders.

Seeing how the plastic Zombies are still available...

Flying Pooo wrote:

 Aesthete wrote:
Just occurred to me that I marked on plastic sisters in the community survey and then GW released plastic sisters. In the Iast community survey I put down WFB in a number of places and here we have this announcement.

I'm not claiming any special powers - but if others did the same as I did... I do wonder to what degree this announcement was driven by feedback in the last survey?

I wonder how much they had to wade through before they realised enough people wanted this.
I love the survey thing GW have going, it seems like they really want to sell us things enough of us say we want to buy.

I just hope enough people are talking about Mordheim.

Wonder if the success of some Made-to-Order waves could have been an additional factor in the decision.

Sotahullu wrote:
My bet on new things coming are Tomb Kings and Bretonnia. Mostly because those have disappeared in AoS.

Totally agree that Bretonnians are a pretty sure fire bet at this point, after all they're bog standard, regular humans (when was the last time we saw any of those?) that enjoy a bit of pomp and ceremony and massed cavalry charges. Add to that some fantastically nostalgic but well loved miniatures such as the Green Knight and you're on to a winner.

Just need a little addition of a gobbo wolf rider army, full of dynamic new sculpts, to face off and we're off to the races with my dream box set

That or Empire... I wouldn't mind a plastic steam tank!

Stick it all on the list for me during the next survey, Aesthete please!

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Wonder if the success of some Made-to-Order waves could have been an additional factor in the decision.

I actually put in my last community survey that it was hard to imagine how the most profitable thing to do with Tomb Kings and the rest of the Old World assets was...nothing. I said that while Made to Order likely wasn't the most profitable endeavor, the case of especially Tomb Kings, most of the desirable kits are "modern plastics" which means the actual "cost" is pretty much already sunk in and the manufacture is almost literally peanuts.

Now, I'm not pretending that I somehow inspired them, I'm just saying that there were likely lots of comments like that, because it's kind of obvious. Also, I tend to believe that the survey results are only useful, insofar as they can be used to justify GW already existent internal impetus.

I'd be willing to bet that there were/are people in the company who were not/are not happy with AoS's style. Which means any "excuse" to go back to a style they likely are happier to design for is going to get seized on. If the survey and our responses were that, well, good. But I don't think the survey "caused" GW to move in this direction. Rather, some amount of people there already wanted to and once there was "sufficient reason" that could justify it to higher-ups, it was something that could have a business case made for it.

Personally, I'm happy about this. I know it won't be some fair-tale return, but I'm a fan of the "realistic" Fantasy of the Old World, compared to the hyper-realism of AoS. I also like the RnF playstyle and it seems likely that I'm not at all unique and there are probably designers in GW that feel about the same.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Cool, then neither would Archaon's "full throttle" Dorghar, the Varanguard, anything Sylvaneth that aren't Dryads or Treemen, and probably quite a few other things too.

Erm, good? That's kinda like saying to a kid "Well, fine then, if you don't eat your broccoli, you won't be allowed to eat your brussels sprouts OR your pickled artichokes!"

I have seen it now on a lot of different places, where does the whole "AoS is dying" or "AoS makes less profit than Warhammer in the past" thing comes from?

 kodos wrote:
I have seen it now on a lot of different places, where does the whole "AoS is dying" or "AoS makes less profit than Warhammer in the past" thing comes from?

People's imagination? "Wishful" thinking?

We just had a financial report and it showed no evidence of that as far as I remember.

I know, but that is declined as 40k is earning more money than AoS is losing

I have not seen anything that would indicate a failing AoS but still people coming up that the "Old World is to AoS what HH is to 40k" as the new game replaces AoS because it is dying.

 kodos wrote:
I know, but that is declined as 40k is earning more money than AoS is losing

I have not seen anything that would indicate a failing AoS but still people coming up that the "Old World is to AoS what HH is to 40k" as the new game replaces AoS because it is dying.

People are saying that because that's what the initial teaser video said. And HH isn't meant to replace 40k, so I don't know what that has to do with anything.

 kodos wrote:
I know, but that is declined as 40k is earning more money than AoS is losing

I have not seen anything that would indicate a failing AoS but still people coming up that the "Old World is to AoS what HH is to 40k" as the new game replaces AoS because it is dying.

I don't see how that logically follows, so it's sure seems like wishful thinking on people's part. Or, just straight trolling.

HH was/isn't a replacement for 40K. It's been how many years they have both existed? The Old World will not replace AoS in all likelihood. That is like saying that apples will replace oranges, just because they are both fruits.

 H wrote:

 kodos wrote:
I have seen it now on a lot of different places, where does the whole "AoS is dying" or "AoS makes less profit than Warhammer in the past" thing comes from?

People's imagination? "Wishful" thinking?

We just had a financial report and it showed no evidence of that as far as I remember.

It would be also good to know how WHFB minis do against AOS minis. Maybe GW sees that WHFB "armies" are still selling good and they want to sqeez a more out of them. Man what I would do for those numbers.

Man.... a lot of reaction to a little announcement. I think a greatest hits type line of major campaigns from the history of the Old World would be pretty intriguing to me, eg a War of Vengeance style boxed set with brand new Dwarf and High Elf sculpts for classic units that includes Heroes from that particular conflict ala what we saw with Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero for HH. A bunch of those style boxes would be really interesting. I struggle to see how they could be priced in a way that wouldn’t leave most folks out in the cold tho.
Even so, I’m interested in more info.

Dread Master wrote:
Man.... a lot of reaction to a little announcement. I think a greatest hits type line of major campaigns from the history of the Old World would be pretty intriguing to me, eg a War of Vengeance style boxed set with brand new Dwarf and High Elf sculpts for classic units that includes Heroes from that particular conflict ala what we saw with Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero for HH. A bunch of those style boxes would be really interesting. I struggle to see how they could be priced in a way that wouldn’t leave most folks out in the cold tho.
Even so, I’m interested in more info.

This I'd be down for. Though last time FW tried this, we got Tamurkhan and an unreleased Battle for Blackfire Pass

herjan1987 wrote:
It would be also good to know how WHFB minis do against AOS minis. Maybe GW sees that WHFB "armies" are still selling good and they want to sqeez a more out of them. Man what I would do for those numbers.

Yeah, unfortunately, there is no way we can or will ever know that.

My hypothesis would be that GW has noticed (it's hard to not) that the "generic" fantasy business is still alive and kicking, even growing, despite their up and abandoning it. In other words, that market has displayed a certain stability. We can only read the circumstantial evidence, but I really don't think the aim is to "compete" with each other, rather, they are related, but different games. HH has likely "taught" them that the two things really don't cannibalize each other.

I think broadly, you've got people that would only play AoS, people that would only play WHFB and people that would play both. In only making AoS, you literally lose 2/3rd of sales in the potential markets. Not exactly good business sense. I think the biggest key though is that there are likely people in GW who just like the old RnF, "realism" of the Old World and just would rather work on that.

I love Mantic's Kings of War ad going around Facebook that says:

"Why wait (a)round for years? You can buy KoW Third edition right now!"