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 Just Tony wrote:
Waitaminit, when did they officially change the rules about using squares in AOS? I thought you could use either/or. If that's the case, W:TOW on squares shouldn't matter in the slightest. If it DOES matter, don't third party manufacturers sell square to round converters?

There is no official ruling on bases.

The competitive crowd however makes unofficial-official rules, such as standard point size, standard house rules... and requiring round bases. That trickles down to everyone else playing at a store. If you are playing at home no one will care. If you are playing in public or an event, you are going to have to rebase your models.

Glumy wrote:
I dont predict the change of scale. Even GW isn't that stupid. The backlash would be... epic.

Ah... you DO recall the backlash against AoS among WFB fans, don't you? If GW was stupid enough to do it once, they're stupid enough to do it again.

 Vulcan wrote:

Glumy wrote:
I dont predict the change of scale. Even GW isn't that stupid. The backlash would be... epic.

Ah... you DO recall the backlash against AoS among WFB fans, don't you? If GW was stupid enough to do it once, they're stupid enough to do it again.

In those days GW didn't need consumer feedback. One also gets the impression that the upper management were getting more and more isolated from their actual customers. I also wonder if there wasn't even some resentment against the older customers who are often gatekeepers/local promoters of the game being customers who "aren't buying any more".

 Kalamadea wrote:
For all the people that want WHFB in 15mm, try Deamonworld figs. It's a 15mm fantasy line of figures from the mid/late 90s that were basically a copy of GW at the time. I've been doing some lately to go with the Joan of Arc boardgame, but they'd work great for either KoW or older editions of actual WHFB/9th Age. Sculpting quality is great for the scale and they're really inexpensive. They have most major GW armies available, although they have a lot more options for 'good" races than the evil ones

http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/demonworld-15mm-c-76/demonworld-classic-c-76_151/

As for Old World, I just hope I finally get High Elf Spearmen and archers that don't look like arse. I'd planned to convert 2 big blocks of spearmen from Dark Elf spearmen, but lost steam halfway through the project. Helf archers look OKish with a headswap, but they still aren't great. The High Elf line was SO good when 8th ended with the sole exception of the Core Units. Teclis' Pointy Aelves will hopefully be good for AoS, but I have very high doubts that they'll rank up (especially if put on 20mm squares)

Something like that is almost exactly what I was picturing for an "affordable" WHFB redux. I like the aesthetic of two 15mm guys to a 20-25mm square base, all other rules being functionally the same.

At the very least you may have given me my next big side-project, so thanks! :-)

 Overread wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Glumy wrote:
I dont predict the change of scale. Even GW isn't that stupid. The backlash would be... epic.

Ah... you DO recall the backlash against AoS among WFB fans, don't you? If GW was stupid enough to do it once, they're stupid enough to do it again.

In those days GW didn't need consumer feedback. One also gets the impression that the upper management were getting more and more isolated from their actual customers. I also wonder if there wasn't even some resentment against the older customers who are often gatekeepers/local promoters of the game being customers who "aren't buying any more".

I'm from Missouri, the "Show Me" state. Thus far, the face GW has shown me says they're perfectly capable of stupid errors that they believe will net them more sales. Yes, they rolled the dice on AoS and won that round. This makes them MORE likely to do it again, not less.

Until GW can "show me" they have learned their lesson - and since I play neither AoS nor 40K, nothing they've done for either of those games shows me anything - I have to wait until they do something relevant to MY segment of the hobby. They have to SHOW ME they've changed; I don't have to shower them with money 'because GW!'

 Vulcan wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Glumy wrote:
I dont predict the change of scale. Even GW isn't that stupid. The backlash would be... epic.

Ah... you DO recall the backlash against AoS among WFB fans, don't you? If GW was stupid enough to do it once, they're stupid enough to do it again.

In those days GW didn't need consumer feedback. One also gets the impression that the upper management were getting more and more isolated from their actual customers. I also wonder if there wasn't even some resentment against the older customers who are often gatekeepers/local promoters of the game being customers who "aren't buying any more".

I'm from Missouri, the "Show Me" state. Thus far, the face GW has shown me says they're perfectly capable of stupid errors that they believe will net them more sales. Yes, they rolled the dice on AoS and won that round. This makes them MORE likely to do it again, not less.

Until GW can "show me" they have learned their lesson - and since I play neither AoS nor 40K, nothing they've done for either of those games shows me anything - I have to wait until they do something relevant to MY segment of the hobby. They have to SHOW ME they've changed; I don't have to shower them with money 'because GW!'

GW didn't succeed with AoS - it was a disaster at launch. A vast portion of the market they'd been marketing too through Old World and the End Times was up in arms over AoS. The AoS concept itself wasn't even a game but a boutique model line that would just sell cool models. GW wasn't going to give it points, rules, probably not even much army following outside of sales data (ergo if your army sold they'd make more; if it didn't they'd scrap it and add antoher new concept). GW had to backpeddle; change CEOs and shift the entire design concept for AoS to 1.0 and then to 2.0 to actually get it properly off the ground.

I think.that ignores that they actually lost.very badly with AoS, enough to be the final nail in the coffin for the old.order at GE,.the order responsible for ending old fantasy, and the ascension of a new order there, one willing to make AoS into something else.

It's the new order there that while continuing some of GWs more onerous policies (gradual price hikes) is also very different than the order before it; ie, wanting customer.feedback for product development, marketing, public outreach, bundles, boardgames, etc.

If you're going to grandstand about "show me" then at least understand the nuance of what you're being shown.

I don't even think GW lost anything. They had a couple of years of rocky times with their fantasy line, which was already not doing well for their other choices.

The only ones that really lost anything were the whfb fans who had collections for a game and world that they loved that had it removed overnight and replaced with something that was entirely different and appealed to an entirely different set of people for the most part that they had to reconcile.

 auticus wrote:
I don't even think GW lost anything. They had a couple of years of rocky times with their fantasy line, which was already not doing well for their other choices.

The only ones that really lost anything were the whfb fans who had collections for a game and world that they loved that had it removed overnight and replaced with something that was entirely different and appealed to an entirely different set of people for the most part that they had to reconcile.

They didn't even really lose sales at first. There was a mass buying of anything old school as it closed out, and it wasn't until the later models were hitting that they saw anything remotely like a loss. I'm pretty sure that's why General's Handbook was fired out the cannon so fast, they realized legacy sales were going to dry up fast. I'm willing to bet half the SCE models sold were for Marine conversions. Even then, the premise that plastic production costs haven't gone up NEARLY as much as current prices indicate means that they're charging at the point of sale to make their revenue vs. units sold very misleading. It's also why you will never see a "units sold" value in ANY of their releases/reports.

15mm scale is unlikely to say the least. It’s not the Warhammer then. I have no idea why it was brought up at all.. I would have no interest in 15mm warhammer anyway, the scale WFB has is one of the reasons I’m in the hobby.
I hope the new rules just nerf the cannons a bit.. and having more than 8 faction specific items would be good, like in the times prior to 8th Ed.

The rules don’t even worry me that much -8th Ed is still played in the area and I love it. New WFB Miniatures - that I cant wait to see. The last thing that had that aesthetic, that I adore are the Gloomspite Gitz. But I like squigs a bit too much. I hope nothing like Deepkin or NewBoneFaction awaits us.

Cronch wrote:
2000pts in AoS really doesn't count as "skirmish". A lot of armies can bring well over 100 models at that point.

Anyway, I seriously doubt there will be any overlap between the two Warhammers, just like in HH (which is ostensibly what inspired TOW) you can't just plop your tau down and go at the heresy-era mahreens.

Bu you can essentially plop your 30k marines in a 40k game vs tau quite easily...
The Tau player wont give a gak what "MK" the power armour on those tac marines is for the most part. It will die just the same

A lot of 30k options do cross over into 40k but not all. However none of the 40k stuff really goes into 30k.

My crystal ball predicts:

1. The two systems will be in same scale.

2. AOS will have rules for some of the new WHOW units but WHOW will be self-contained.

3. This appeases the WHFB/WHOW fans - As their game will not be "hijacked" by AOS asthetics or lore and if they want what AOS has to offer, they can juts buy into AOS anyway. Its a win win for GW as the AOS players will be happy as they can just buy the OW models they like and plug them into their game, thus so they continue to feel being supported and not like somethings being taken away or they are missing out.

It's what Id do.

if the only difference between the warhammer game and the aos game is aesthetics, there would still be a whole lot missing to entice people back. The game itself and how it played was very important.

Well of course that's why I said lore/asthetics (which make the setting)

At the end of the day its about miniatures.
From a game perspective one will be using squared bases... which could be swapped for round bases. Is all I'm saying.

AOS will have rules for some of the new WHOW units

Assuming they actually keep to old world lore, we have stats and lists for all upcoming TOW released already, right there in Warhammer Legends pdf, where all squatted WHFB armies went with release of AoS.

I think exactly as some are saying. AoS can use any and all models they release for TOW, but obviously all the new stuff they made won’t work backwards (unless it’s stuff like Gloomspite where it’s models of things that existed in TOW)

So, now that Zoats are now officially back, want to talk about that Warmaster thing again?

 BertBert wrote:
So, now that Zoats are now officially back, want to talk about that Warmaster thing again?

I'd say it's relevant in that it makes it.. even less likely?
With AoS and 40k, GW does whatever GW wants to do. New differently proportioned Space Marines to presumably eventually replace all the old versions? Sure. Fish-Elves? Sure. Take the concept of a single unit and create an entire faction based on them (Witch Elves/Slayers/presumably soon Giants)? Sure.

Their side projects, however, are at least partially aimed specifically at veterans of the games and universes, and rely heavily on nostalgia. Squats in Necromunda. Ratlings, a Zoat and the Ambull for Blackstone Fortress. WTOW would likely be the most nostalgic of all, as it is not so much about providing a different type of game (small skirmishing gangs; dungeon-crawling boardgame), but a particular style of game set in a different world from a different time.
Nostalgia = ranked 28mm scale models on square bases.
It's what it was, it's what it will be.

Smaller (6th ed-esque) unit sizes may help keep the otherwise problematic costs for armies low, and I can see new releases to perhaps mainly be easy-to-build boxes that provide limited options but comparatively many figures for the price.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Their side projects, however, are at least partially aimed specifically at veterans of the games and universes, and rely heavily on nostalgia. Squats in Necromunda. Ratlings, a Zoat and the Ambull for Blackstone Fortress. WTOW would likely be the most nostalgic of all, as it is not so much about providing a different type of game (small skirmishing gangs; dungeon-crawling boardgame), but a particular style of game set in a different world from a different time.
Nostalgia = ranked 28mm scale models on square bases.
It's what it was, it's what it will be.

Let me remind you again that all of GW's nostalgia games went out of their way to make old models unusable by changing scale.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Their side projects, however, are at least partially aimed specifically at veterans of the games and universes, and rely heavily on nostalgia. Squats in Necromunda. Ratlings, a Zoat and the Ambull for Blackstone Fortress. WTOW would likely be the most nostalgic of all, as it is not so much about providing a different type of game (small skirmishing gangs; dungeon-crawling boardgame), but a particular style of game set in a different world from a different time.
Nostalgia = ranked 28mm scale models on square bases.
It's what it was, it's what it will be.

Let me remind you again that all of GW's nostalgia games went out of their way to make old models unusable by changing scale.

You're probably right. I'm sure they won't try to make their nostalgia project a revisit of a top 3 best selling game system whose failure happened after 30+ years because of corporate mismanagement rather than lack of player interest and will instead base it entirely on a game that died a retail death less than 18 months in its life EXPLICITLY because of lack of customer interest.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Their side projects, however, are at least partially aimed specifically at veterans of the games and universes, and rely heavily on nostalgia. Squats in Necromunda. Ratlings, a Zoat and the Ambull for Blackstone Fortress. WTOW would likely be the most nostalgic of all, as it is not so much about providing a different type of game (small skirmishing gangs; dungeon-crawling boardgame), but a particular style of game set in a different world from a different time.
Nostalgia = ranked 28mm scale models on square bases.
It's what it was, it's what it will be.

Let me remind you again that all of GW's nostalgia games went out of their way to make old models unusable by changing scale.

I think there are two important differences there though.

Firstly, the level of investment (from both customers and GW). Buy one box of 10 models and you've got a Necromunda gang. A handful of planes and you're set for AI. Not exactly comparable to the (few) hundred new minis required for something resembling WHFB. GW has created 1 plastic kit for each Necromunda gang (2 for Enforcers, and likely other gangs in the future). A fair few month in, there are still only two factions for AI, with a couple of options each. Unless they're fine releasing something resembling the full range over a period of 15 years, the amount of kits required for a vaguely complete game from scratch would be enormous. Several fairly popular factions in their flagship 40k and AoS brands have received just 1 or 2 plastic kits in the past few years; I can't see them investing that heavily in a sideproject.

Secondly, the feel of the game. Necromunda is about gang warfare with a handful of named, identifiable miniatures that collect experience and injuries along the way. It doesn't rely on being 28mm or 32mm or whatever (and the game can actually be played just fine with old gangs; although an old goliath sculpt will look rather wimpy next to the new hulk-like creatures). AI is primarily about flying your planes around in dogfights or bombardment raids. Defining aspects of Warhammer Fantasy were it being a rank-and-flank game with individually based models and casualty removal. They can do that in 32mm, but as above, neither GW nor the customer is going to invest in that. 10-15mm would be a lot cheaper to produce (and buy into), but it would feel completely different, defeating the purpose.

Just to be clear, I'm absolutely cynical enough to see GW do this if they thought it would make them money, but the investment required versus the backlash and limited customer interest makes that an unlikely strategy I'd say.

There’s nothing stopping you using old models in Necromunda, Blood Bowl or Aeronautica Imperialis. Adeptus Titanicus is the only one where the scale change really invalidates anything.

 ImAGeek wrote:
There’s nothing stopping you using old models in Necromunda, Blood Bowl or Aeronautica Imperialis. Adeptus Titanicus is the only one where the scale change really invalidates anything.

And honestly comparing the old to the new is a near night and day difference. Not just in size and scale, but also in terms of the overall detailing and some of the style. Whilst some, like the reavers, have really kept the old style, the Warlord has changed a fair bit and the newer one has a much better, in my view, upper armour design over the original. The Epic 40K Warlord was very neat, but a drastically different design ethos (same for the Eldar of that game)

JohnnyHell - you joked only a day or 2 ago about zoats making a return as a sarcastic reply.
You may want to check news lol.
Zoats are making a return.

Jackal90 wrote:
JohnnyHell - you joked only a day or 2 ago about zoats making a return as a sarcastic reply.
You may want to check news lol.
Zoats are making a return.

And read my post again. "Zoats en masse". One Zoat is coming. Nice try, but I was ahead of the news ;-)

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
JohnnyHell - you joked only a day or 2 ago about zoats making a return as a sarcastic reply.
You may want to check news lol.
Zoats are making a return.

And read my post again. "Zoats en masse". One Zoat is coming. Nice try, but I was ahead of the news ;-)

One zoat is how it all begins :p
Just shows though that GW has finally realised that nostalgia is a thing and it sells models better than trying to push them.
Just hoping we see more like this now.

Preferably we get some old fantasy critters pop up.

 Just Tony wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Their side projects, however, are at least partially aimed specifically at veterans of the games and universes, and rely heavily on nostalgia. Squats in Necromunda. Ratlings, a Zoat and the Ambull for Blackstone Fortress. WTOW would likely be the most nostalgic of all, as it is not so much about providing a different type of game (small skirmishing gangs; dungeon-crawling boardgame), but a particular style of game set in a different world from a different time.
Nostalgia = ranked 28mm scale models on square bases.
It's what it was, it's what it will be.

Let me remind you again that all of GW's nostalgia games went out of their way to make old models unusable by changing scale.

You're probably right. I'm sure they won't try to make their nostalgia project a revisit of a top 3 best selling game system whose failure happened after 30+ years because of corporate mismanagement rather than lack of player interest and will instead base it entirely on a game that died a retail death less than 18 months in its life EXPLICITLY because of lack of customer interest.

Don't even try to use logic, until it's finally revealed that The Old World is using the scale as old WHFB, there will be people on here thinking Warmaster scale is an option. The fact Warmaster flopped commercially and was never succesful at any point of its lifespan doesn't seem to register.

Cartography in the Old World

Looks like the girls at GW have been busy. Very swanky.

 Overread wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
There’s nothing stopping you using old models in Necromunda, Blood Bowl or Aeronautica Imperialis. Adeptus Titanicus is the only one where the scale change really invalidates anything.

And honestly comparing the old to the new is a near night and day difference. Not just in size and scale, but also in terms of the overall detailing and some of the style. Whilst some, like the reavers, have really kept the old style, the Warlord has changed a fair bit and the newer one has a much better, in my view, upper armour design over the original. The Epic 40K Warlord was very neat, but a drastically different design ethos (same for the Eldar of that game)

The Epic 40,000 Ork Gargant and Ork Great Gargant were perfect.

 Eiríkr wrote:
Cartography in the Old World

The heraldic shields confuse me.
They look bretonnian, but they are in Imperial lands. Not sure what's going on there.