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I mean in the PDF linked by Tripleglim it talks about how Katarina actually made the Kislevite palace bigger with a whole new building made of pure ice Elsa style.

 Olthannon wrote:

Sooo…
Bears for some, tiny Kislev flags for everyone else?

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

Sooo…
Bears for some, tiny Kislev flags for everyone else?

I would have added that but this thread is just an endless back and forth between the first two

 triplegrim wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.


The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons,

Yes, but they have been killing all male mages since at least 2009, havent they? So which is it? Is something cannon if it existed in the 90s but havent been seen much since?

The Kislev 'Army book' mentions "Bear" 34 times, reaching near wulfing the wolf claw with the wolfing wolf power levels.

None of these references are to bear cavalry. On the contrary, Tsar Boris riding one is portrayed as near legendary status.

I've played warhammer since 2000 or so, and known about the hobby even earlier, and I did not imagine Kislev as bear riding russians at all. Because I have never seen it in 28mm GW material, nor models for it. For all its existence in a 1996 book, fact is that they havent had bears as cavalry for a generation. The Kislev Allied contingent could take exactly 1 bear. Same for their Mordheim team. This has been the situation for longer than the interwar perios between the two world wars.

Might be players like yourself always considered the Kislev faction to use bears as war horses and pulling their cannons and having magic ice arrow shooting troops, but I cant agree that this has been their image since 6th edition. If anything whatever models have been available and whatever table top material has been released have been of a fairly mundane, almost historical war game faction. I think having bears as regular mounts and as "sled horses" for guns are changing the kislev image that they have had for decades.

Source: http://sgabetto.free.fr/Telechargements/kislev-book.pdf







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


Yeah that's the problem really - people making up their own minds about what Kislev was like, even if that view of them is not how they actually were.

I agree that this is the issue of it, and anyone who joined when Kislev was using the allied contingent book (the only one they ever had or?) has never seen bear cavalry or magic ice archeresses in the game, unless they went digging into oop books and novels.

My phone went into seizure mode when I clicked on that link. When was it published and where, so I can read it myself?

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
"big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best

No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.

Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.

Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.

What a brilliant post. Exalted.

Great post but he picked the worst example:

 Galas wrote:
Great post but he picked the worst example:

yeah they realy needed to now the actual lore before trying to make that point. Otherwise you just look stupid

 triplegrim wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.


The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons,

Yes, but they have been killing all male mages since at least 2009, havent they? So which is it? Is something cannon if it existed in the 90s but havent been seen much since?

The Kislev 'Army book' mentions "Bear" 34 times, reaching near wulfing the wolf claw with the wolfing wolf power levels.

None of these references are to bear cavalry. On the contrary, Tsar Boris riding one is portrayed as near legendary status.

I've played warhammer since 2000 or so, and known about the hobby even earlier, and I did not imagine Kislev as bear riding russians at all. Because I have never seen it in 28mm GW material, nor models for it. For all its existence in a 1996 book, fact is that they havent had bears as cavalry for a generation. The Kislev Allied contingent could take exactly 1 bear. Same for their Mordheim team. This has been the situation for longer than the interwar perios between the two world wars.

Might be players like yourself always considered the Kislev faction to use bears as war horses and pulling their cannons and having magic ice arrow shooting troops, but I cant agree that this has been their image since 6th edition. If anything whatever models have been available and whatever table top material has been released have been of a fairly mundane, almost historical war game faction. I think having bears as regular mounts and as "sled horses" for guns are changing the kislev image that they have had for decades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


Yeah that's the problem really - people making up their own minds about what Kislev was like, even if that view of them is not how they actually were.

I agree that this is the issue of it, and anyone who joined when Kislev was using the allied contingent book (the only one they ever had or?) has never seen bear cavalry or magic ice archeresses in the game, unless they went digging into oop books and novels.

I do get it, to someone who got introduced to them via the 6th edition army book that would have given the impression they're a relatively normal faction, but my point is that - even if you someone didn't notice the other stuff - those design elements are something GW decided to add to Kislev both before and after that army book was released, they are not some sudden change they've now decided to introduce for Kislev for TOW and TW:W3, things like this have been part of them for years. They haven't taken Kislev in some drastic new direction that's flanderizing them where they're suddenly all about bears and ice magic and that sort of thing, this is Kislev properly being shown to their full extent as their lore, something that wasn't really done before in terms of their miniatures - Kislev never go a full codex to the same level others did, they got a small supplement with some units and lore published via White Dwarf - a 34 page book rather than being a proper full army. Beyond that their appearance in miniatures consisted of little more than a few Warmaster units, but their lore many times has depicted them as a faction with mysical elements, ice magic, and bears.

I'm not too sure when Kislev first appeared originally, but what I've found looking into this more:

4th edition Warhammer Armies: The empire, released in 1993 (...or 1996? Found both dates), has Kislev included but is very brief. They are depicted as more of a grounded human faction at this stage, but it's very, very brief; it basically amounts to a small amount of lore of pretty much "There's a place called Kislev" and 3-4 units. Winged Lancers, Katarin etc. Mentions Kislev is ruled by warrior-sorcerers with their magic based on the land itself and Frost/ice focused. Magic Ice Hawks, Ice Bridge that can carry units, Fearfrost as a magic frost sword etc. Art of Boris Usra riding a bear is shown, albeit it seems he isn't actually talked about at all so appears to not be a character...just a guy riding a bear. Also unclear if this is meant to be the same as Boris Ursus a few years later.

The 1996 Citadel Journal list had fantastical elements, including Bear mounts for heroes, Bear Cavalry, packs of bears and Baba Yaga. Common later lore things like their bear god, bears being sacred etc are mentioned here as similar to later lore but i'm unsure what was and wasn't already established in more "official" sources before this article, so while it's debatable as to how canonical the stuff here is (Citadel Journal is an official publication, but people could submit stuff), some of the things included here did also appear in definitely more official sources - I'm just unsure when specifically some of that first appeared and what is and isn't already established for them by the time this article was written.

Their Warmaster army list in 2002, had packs of tamed bears and bear mounts and a spell to transform into a giant bear (and mentions they build temples in which they keep pits full of bears to send out to war). That old art of Boris Ursa on a bear appears again.

The Ambassador series, Written by Graham Mcneill in 2003/2004, supposedly had those mystical fantasy elements included - Katarina apparently summons spirits of Kislev warriors in bodies of ice, for example. Bokha palace also has parts entire sections made of ice.

Their 6th edition army in 2003 did not have much in the way of that side of things, mostly just Boris Ursus as the most out-there in terms of units, albeit the book did depict conversions of both a hero on giant bear and bear cavalry. Their connection to various spirits are mentioned but its unclear as to if they book considers them as real or not. It mentions the religion involving bears with a God of Bears who takes the form of a bear - so despite the lack of bear units, bears are still said to be a very important thing to Kislev overall. Magical lore for different Gods are mentioned. The palace having sections made of ice are mentioned by the book too.

The Warhammer RPG "Realm of the Ice Queen" expansion released in 2007 once again follows the fantasy Kislev side and is the most comprehensive depiction of Kislev out of the lot - because its an RPG there's a lot of stuff. The various spirits mentioned previously are defined more specifically, there's magical creatures like Frostfiends and Firebirds, Hag Witches (like Baba Yaga was) are there, the map of the city of Kislev shows Bokha palace with the ice structure parts, Katarina has the enchanted Ice Palace, it details the importance of the Ice Witches, all the ice magic like ice weapons, the other cults/gods appear again with magic for them etc.

I'm sure there's probably more that I haven't found.

My point is that on multiple occasions throughout the years they've had elements like that already. As is typical of Warhammer lore stuff got depicted in more detail as time went on, but it's not a new direction that Kislev has suddenly gone in. Even if you discount the Citadel Journal part, the other sources still have them with bears in common use, plenty of mentions of the mystical nature/land of Kislev spirit side, and Ice Magic as a focus. Certainly nothing that makes the bear cavalry unit, Magic spirit bear, Ice Mage unit or the sled flanderization. It was a bit scattered over multiple different places, but they're all in line with what was already there throughout the years, just their army list in tabletop didn't really reflect things too well.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
"big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best

No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.

Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.

Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.

Your point is quite irrelevant. What I said was to do with those being examples of more fantastical Kislev lore that have been there for a long time, nothing along the lines of "It has Ice in the name so it must be made of Ice". I was stating examples of things in Kislev have were there early on that had already been established as being along the same lines of fantasical as the new stuff seen recently.

If you look up the lore for them you'll quite clearly see it stated how they are not just names and that actually is the case for theml though, the "Ice Palace" (Bokha palace) is actually made of Ice and has been stated as such even since its depictions even in the 6th edition army book, for example. Hence the relevance to how the significant magic ice theming shown now is not some sudden drastic change. The Lore behind them is the relevant part and what's why i gave them as examples, not because of their the names.

(the Frozen Court example was me mis-understanding something though, as i had got the impression it was a specific organization/court of Ice Witches, but it seems it's just what Katarin's court is called rather than a specific group with a purpose itself)

A better question if they have traditionally been portrayed as high or low fantasy faction, is perhaps if they should be released in TOO as heavily into the former or latter...

 triplegrim wrote:
A better question if they have traditionally been portrayed as high or low fantasy faction, is perhaps if they should be released in TOO as heavily into the former or latter...

Same as all previous Warhammer game I would expect:

A mxiture of the immensley powerful - High Elf Lords atop Dragons as well as the humble - a gobbo with a plank of wood with a nail in it.

So Kislev can have a giant bear spirit model and basic Horse Archers.

To be honest, the bokha palace new wing being made of ice is not presented as a fact, but as a rumour

 streetsamurai wrote:
To be honest, the bokha palace new wing being made of ice is not presented as a fact, but as a rumour

. One entire wing is fashioned from ice; its frosty battlements and glittering flying buttresses shimmer with Ice Magic, and on a sunny day, its beauty is breathtaking, resembling a vast ice sculpture rising from the ground. Armoured knights with helms crafted in the shape of snarling bears patrol the palace’s perimeter at all times, and though the palace is exquisite to look at, its defences are every bit as formidable as the city walls. This palace is the dwelling place of the Ice Queen and is where foreign emissaries and her boyarin are granted audiences. The common people of Kislev will never set foot within the palace unless under exceptional circumstances, but once a year, the Ice Queen gives leave that they may promenade the cold paths of her Winter Gardens, where food and gifts are distributed to her people

The most famous portion of the palace is known as the Gallery of Heroes, which sits within the magically created ice wing of the palace.

Realm of the Ice Queen, pg. 84

 streetsamurai wrote:
To be honest, the bokha palace new wing being made of ice is not presented as a fact, but as a rumour

The Ambassador novel series, from 2003, supposedly has it and its made of ice. The RPG "realm of the Ice Queen" released after the army book also has it made of Ice in both text and picture. I don't think 1 out of 3 times it's mentioned using the term "It is said" turns it into an unsure thing. The same section also said "It's said" that Katarins Ice Magic powers come from the land of kislev itself, something that actually is a fact anyway.

There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.

The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?

 triplegrim wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.

The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?

Yes, that's how Black Library books tend to work. Next?

 Olthannon wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.

The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?

Yes, that's how Black Library books tend to work. Next?

You're going to have some conflicting canon to deal with. I think I'll stick to the wargame. Its messy enough as it is.

 triplegrim wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.

The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?

I know you want to defend your position.

The thing is, you don't need to. You can have your vision of Kislev. And thats totally fine. Like, I don't like mechanical horses for my vision of the empire.

But the truth is, lore accurate Kislev is what has been shown on Total War Warhammer 3. And it has been that way since forever, in all forms of Kislevite lore. And it has been put here with sources from very gentle and studied posters.

At this point, if people want to still say that ice weapons aren't kislev, bears aren't kislev, ice magic isn't kislev, is their right. But they would be wrong in whats actually Kislev in the fluff from its inception.
And even then, you only need to look at Kislev roster to see that 90% of their units are normal humans with normal weapons or normal humans mounted in horses. But just like Greater Demons always being giant in the fluff but only recently being giant in tabletop form by the limits of the technology, the representation of kislev of the tabletop was a limitation of the limited roster and the age, but as always the fluff was much more magical and fantastical.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
"big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best

No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.

Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.

Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.

What part of the last 40 years of warhammer made you think GW does subtlety? If something is called the ice palace, it's made out of fething ice yo. You call someone the ice queen? It's cause the was elsa before elsa was cool (or cold).

 triplegrim wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.

The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?

Yes that is how GW works. You see how Warhammer Fantasy navy worked because of another GW game. You see how other life happens because they decided to publish some lore blurb in an old article of White Dwarf because the maker thought it would be cool to talk about it that day.

All that you are clarifying is that you don't understand how Games Workshop has operated.

 triplegrim wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.

The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?

#


....Yes? That's just how the lore works. Do you not realize that Warhammer is a franchise that encompasses several different media formats and isn't just a miniatures game? It's absurd to try and say that the novels, animations, comics, reference books etc based on GWs IPs don't count as part of the settings lore because they're not the army books - they're still official releases made with the intent of showing you more of the setting. The army books are something that's primarily done to give you the rules rather than an in-depth dive into lore anyway. Just what do you think those are if they aren't the lore?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.

The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?

Yes that is how GW works.

until some designer writing the new army books diced to ignore all those things (because he never read them) and makes up something in direct conflict to his lore form WD, BL, RPG.

whatever is written in the latest Army Books is canon and have priority, whatever other source is there is only valid of not in conflict with the AB and if it is not written for an older edition (eg the old Konrad trilogy is not canon any more)

Lore reading is curious because for the amount of people who are eager to debate for hours based on what they read in the rulebook and codex/battletome; many do not read the novels, the rpg games or other supporting material that gets released over time. One part is that GW doesn't push BL ,marketing as heavily (They do better now but its not as heavily pushed still); another part is that your rulebook and battletome/codex are "essential" purchases to play.

Storybooks and RPG books are not essential to play the wargame. They are optional and thus often get a lower priority assigned to them. So even if you are aware of them, you might just never find the free money because you're always saving for that next unit or that next rules edition.

Another thing is that reading stories and such is a different interest/hobby and whlist it does overlap well with wargaming hobbies, its not always a certain overlap. So some just don't want to read the other material.



It's one reason that the lore debates can get a bit strange because some are debating from just the core material; whilst others are bringing in supporting material from outside. Then you factor in that different authors/material will focus on different aspects of the same lore; will get little bits wrong/different between them and then that the lore does evolve and shift over time so someone who engaged with it all 20 years ago might have slightly different impressions/specifics than someone who engages only with modern material today.

 kodos wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.

The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?

Yes that is how GW works.

and if it is not written for an older edition (eg the old Konrad trilogy is not canon any more)

If "not being written during an older edition" was the criteria then by that logic all those 40k novels released before July 2020 are now irrelevant.

When the books were released doesn't matter much, it's whether the lore within them has been explicitly retconned that's the important part.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

If "not being written during an older edition" was the criteria then by that logic all those 40k novels released before July 2020 are now irrelevant.

yes, if you want the Space Wolves Fluff, the Ragnar books are now all irrelevant not just the details given that are directly retconned by the last Codex but the whole series of previous BL books because they are build upon a retconned part of the lore (aka the facts given by an old Codex that is now replaced with different facts)

same as all Warhammer lore written with the old Storm of Chaos lore in the back are now irrelevant because the End Times retconned that part of the lore (and everything build around it)

And the new lore for Total War also follows the older lore for Kislev - so no issue right?

Note that GW approves all that CA do. The C7 rpg games have the same deal and recently in say Soulbound, have been built around what was happening in the campaign books.

Grand Cathay is Mapped for the First Time in Warhammer: The Old World

Is it weird i find the Hobgoblin Khanate is far more interesting than the (distinctly empty looking) Cathay map itself?

stratigo wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
"big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best

No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.

Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.

Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.

What part of the last 40 years of warhammer made you think GW does subtlety? If something is called the ice palace, it's made out of fething ice yo. You call someone the ice queen? It's cause the was elsa before elsa was cool (or cold).

It seems a number of people in this thread struggle with reading comprehension. "Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details..." is a pretty important statement here. The point is that Mentlegen was premising his argument around what things were named rather than what they actually are. If he wanted to prove his point he should have provided details to support it, as he did with his examples about Bear worship