What is the point of Crux Terminatus?

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**Slayer-Fan123**

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
They should roll back to previous edition rules where termies got a 3+ on 2d6. Make them valid again.

With the prevelance of multi-damage middling -AP e.g. Helblasters, termies are a sub-optimal choice. The only redeeming feature they have is deepstrike and if you don't kill your target on arrival you may as well forgoe rolling dice and just take them off the table.

My 2p.
No no no no!

I swing with 10 Berserkers into your Terminators. They all have a Chainsword and Chainaxe, with an Exalted Champ nearby. That is...

62 Chainaxe attacks
~41 hits
~36 wounds at AP-1

20 Chainsword attacks
~13 hits
~11 wounds at AP0

Roll 36 saves, on two dice, one at a time, looking for 4+.
Then roll 11 at 3+.

The length of time would just be ridiculous.

I was commenting on survivability.

You seem to be commenting on convenience.

How many dice do you think a green tide Ork army gets through in a game?

How many individual Ork models need to use multiple dice for their save?

**_SeeD_**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
We are talking about a unit that bridges a gap. It's better than a space marine, but not as good as the next unit. It's cost also reflects that. Unless we are clamoring to remake the entire baseline for old-boys, I don't see how much it can change without stepping on toes.

Do you agree with their current point cost? Because that could be the magical solution we're looking for - a lower point cost.

**kingheff**

My earliest memory of terminators is from space hulk where they were tough with a lot of anti infantry dakka, are they so far from that now?

**a_typical_hero**

We could do something funky with the Terminator armor itself, instead of the T and W stat of the model. These two stats always felt more like they belong to the "person", rather than being granted by the wargear.

Something like...
- Ignore armor save modifier caused by weapon AP => always save on 2+
- Re-roll every failed armor / invunerable save
- ...

You get the idea. Would increase the survivability of every model in TDA without inflating the stats.

**Karol**

kingheff wrote:
My earliest memory of terminators is from space hulk where they were tough with a lot of anti infantry dakka, are they so far from that now?

A termintor costs twice as much as a intercessor, or close to it, and almost as much as two GK strikes. Not sure about chaos. This means that other units have double the fire power, double the wounds or the same wounds, and a bunch of extra rules, termintors armed with just stormbolters do not have, like sniper bolt weapon, benefiting less from squad support rules, as they have fewer models for more points etc.

**JNAProductions**

CSM Terminators are 5 points more than Loyalist ones.

For reasons.

**Octopoid**

JNAProductions wrote:
CSM Terminators are 5 points more than Loyalist ones.

For reasons.

Spike tax.

**Racerguy180**

kingheff wrote:How about salamander cataphracti terminators?
The cheapest squad is 170 pts for storm bolters and lightning claws, ap 0 and ap -1 keeps their save at 2+ and any ap above -2 is a waste due to the 4++.
Not bad to drop in on turn two so they get the -1 ap on their bolters.
Not amazing but decent chaff clearing and board control, especially if you can drop them in cover.

I'm digging all of my flavours of Termies again. Add in a termie Librarian and bingo.

I think they really just need to go back to 2d6 3+ otherwise they are in a better spot now.

The differences in the armour variants actually matter. I like them and when I take which type depends on the theme of my lists.

**_SeeD_**

a_typical_hero wrote:
We could do something funky with the Terminator armor itself, instead of the T and W stat of the model. These two stats always felt more like they belong to the "person", rather than being granted by the wargear.

Something like...
- Ignore armor save modifier caused by weapon AP => always save on 2+
- Re-roll every failed armor / invunerable save
- ...

You get the idea. Would increase the survivability of every model in TDA without inflating the stats.

I like the second idea. The first is a 2++ invulnerable save, which is a NO NO.

**JNAProductions**

Eh... the second gives them a 97% chance of passing their 2+, and they never get worse than a 4/9 chance of failing.

Give them a storm shield and that’s never worse than an 89% save rate.

**a_typical_hero**

_SeeD_ wrote:
I like the second idea. The first is a 2++ invulnerable save, which is a NO NO.

Yes, it feels a bit off, as it would go against a core rule and obviously Storm Shields had to change for them to still make sense. Something like -hit in melee or I don't know.

JNAProductions wrote:
Eh... the second gives them a 97% chance of passing their 2+, and they never get worse than a 4/9 chance of failing.

Give them a storm shield and that’s never worse than an 89% save rate.

You definitely would have to commit anti-tank weaponry (or mortal wounds) to get rid of them.

In the background they are described at least once as being able to be trampled on by a Titan (the ground breaks sooner than the TDA), so going a little bit overboard with resilience might not be the wrong way. (Not saying it is the only right one, either. Just sharing my thoughts with you guys). Some wargear options might of course need to be looked at in light of the proposals.

**_SeeD_**

What FezzikDaBullgryn is pointing out is that any change for the better will be reflected in the points and other units will have their toes stepped on. I think what needs to happen is an overall drop in price for Crux Terminatus models to reflect the fact that their invulnerable save is rarely used. Just say what it is. They just copy/pasted the rule from 7th edition to 8th. If not, then some serious adjusting needs to be done. I think it would just be easier to drop the price.

**Gadzilla666**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd rather see all Terminators' datasheets get stuck together and give them all a 4++. Different marks of power armour don't come with different rules, the only reason different marks of Terminator armour do is so GW can say "this datasheet has only parts we sell you in one box!".

Exactly what I've been wanting. Could you imagine that a Chapter that was nearly killed off would have two of each armor, but never field them together because GW said so?

It's stupid, purely stupid.

Exactly. I have some of each mark of tda and mix them in units because I play chaos and we don't have separate rules for each mark. I do the same with different marks of power armour because they all have the same stats. The same should be fine for loyalists.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
We are talking about a unit that bridges a gap. It's better than a space marine, but not as good as the next unit. It's cost also reflects that. Unless we are clamoring to remake the entire baseline for old-boys, I don't see how much it can change without stepping on toes.

A points drop would work fine. I don't really care if it smashes primaris toes. They've gotten plenty lately.

**The Newman**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think it's hilarious people are tossing around making Terminators T6 with 3W each. Ok, then what do we do for Custodes terminators at more than double the points cost? Make them T7 with 5W each? Then I guess make commanders 9W each, and now tanks have to get a pump up, so make those 17W.....

See how silly this gets? We need to keep in mind that Terminators, no matter how much we may love them, are a outdated and inferior unit to the NuBoys. You make ripples every time you change a low level unit, because everything about that needs to change to compensate. That means Aggressors have to get a change. Dreadnaughts need a change. Every single Custodes Infantry model now needs a change.

Because we decided to make a 29pt unit T6 with 3W.

That sounds about right actually. Custodes only get like four attacks each for a unit that costs over 64 ppm, those attacks are only a little better than a power fist, and their shot output is pathetic. They darn well should be better than T5 W4 for that many points.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Custodes Spears and Axes should be Assault 2.

That's just my humble belief though.

**_SeeD_**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Custodes Spears and Axes should be Assault 2.

That's just my humble belief though.

That would address their lack of mobility, at least for the Custodes Guardians. The Forgeworld spears are Assault X if that makes you any happier.

**Insectum7**

kingheff wrote:
My earliest memory of terminators is from space hulk where they were tough with a lot of anti infantry dakka, are they so far from that now?

They really weren't that tough in Space Hulk. Genestealers basically tore them apart once they closed the distance. The thing about Terminators in Space Hulk was they could shoot A LOT until their weapons jammed. On Overwatch they basically rolled 'kills' against a Genestealer every time the 'Stealer moved an inch within LOS.

Terminators should be tough, but more than that they should be killing enemies as if they were mowing the lawn. With the various bonuses available to them, they can do pretty well in that regard. You just have to spend CP to do it (wich is annoying).

**Kommisar**

Besides 2nd ed and I guess a brief time when people used th/sh terminators in like 5th they’ve basically always been bad. It’s best to forget they exist as they’ve been functionally replaced by primaris and it’s only a matter of time until they’re a legacy only option!

**Insectum7**

Kommisar wrote:
Besides 2nd ed and I guess a brief time when people used th/sh terminators in like 5th they’ve basically always been bad. It’s best to forget they exist as they’ve been functionally replaced by primaris and it’s only a matter of time until they’re a legacy only option!

Actually they seem like a pretty impressive unit right now. Able to deal tons of melee damage and bringing an invuln save that no Primaris unit comes close to.

**The Deer Hunter**

Make Crux Terminator give a 5+++.

**pm713**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think it's hilarious people are tossing around making Terminators T6 with 3W each. Ok, then what do we do for Custodes terminators at more than double the points cost? Make them T7 with 5W each? Then I guess make commanders 9W each, and now tanks have to get a pump up, so make those 17W.....

See how silly this gets? We need to keep in mind that Terminators, no matter how much we may love them, are a outdated and inferior unit to the NuBoys. You make ripples every time you change a low level unit, because everything about that needs to change to compensate. That means Aggressors have to get a change. Dreadnaughts need a change. Every single Custodes Infantry model now needs a change.

Because we decided to make a 29pt unit T6 with 3W.

We've reach the kind of point where the solution is to nerf things. Hard in some cases. But because GW updates one at a time rather than all at once that doesn't work because the people with updates would be understandably annoyed their army is getting nerfed and nobody else has. Then you have things like model bloat and you see the mess GW made themselves.

**AnomanderRake**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think it's hilarious people are tossing around making Terminators T6 with 3W each. Ok, then what do we do for Custodes terminators at more than double the points cost? Make them T7 with 5W each? Then I guess make commanders 9W each, and now tanks have to get a pump up, so make those 17W.....

See how silly this gets? We need to keep in mind that Terminators, no matter how much we may love them, are a outdated and inferior unit to the NuBoys. You make ripples every time you change a low level unit, because everything about that needs to change to compensate. That means Aggressors have to get a change. Dreadnaughts need a change. Every single Custodes Infantry model now needs a change.

Because we decided to make a 29pt unit T6 with 3W.

This is why making Primaris separate units instead of calling them resculpts was a really stupid idea. Right now just for Imperium Infantry we need to have distinct statlines for Conscripts->Guardsmen->Guard Veterans->Stormtroopers->Skitarii->Battle Sisters->Celestians->Scouts->Sicarans->Space Marines->Marine Veterans->Primaris Marines->Terminators->Ogryn->Gravis Marines->Custodians->Custodian Terminators, and for character versions of a lot of these, and if you fiddle with any of them you have a knock-on effect up or down the whole line.

**Yoyoyo**

Not to mention all the stupid rebranded Primaris guns.

Gulliman and Cawl's changes make them look more like marketing execs than strategists

**bullyboy**

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Make Crux Terminator give a 5+++.

This is really the only viable option without a revamp.

**NoiseMarine with Tinnitus**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
They should roll back to previous edition rules where termies got a 3+ on 2d6. Make them valid again.

With the prevelance of multi-damage middling -AP e.g. Helblasters, termies are a sub-optimal choice. The only redeeming feature they have is deepstrike and if you don't kill your target on arrival you may as well forgoe rolling dice and just take them off the table.

My 2p.
No no no no!

I swing with 10 Berserkers into your Terminators. They all have a Chainsword and Chainaxe, with an Exalted Champ nearby. That is...

62 Chainaxe attacks
~41 hits
~36 wounds at AP-1

20 Chainsword attacks
~13 hits
~11 wounds at AP0

Roll 36 saves, on two dice, one at a time, looking for 4+.
Then roll 11 at 3+.

The length of time would just be ridiculous.

I was commenting on survivability.

You seem to be commenting on convenience.

How many dice do you think a green tide Ork army gets through in a game?

How many individual Ork models need to use multiple dice for their save?

I wouldn't know as I don't play them - pray enlighten me.

One thing I do know is that they throw a hell of a lot of dice.

**Slayer-Fan123**

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
They should roll back to previous edition rules where termies got a 3+ on 2d6. Make them valid again.

With the prevelance of multi-damage middling -AP e.g. Helblasters, termies are a sub-optimal choice. The only redeeming feature they have is deepstrike and if you don't kill your target on arrival you may as well forgoe rolling dice and just take them off the table.

My 2p.
No no no no!

I swing with 10 Berserkers into your Terminators. They all have a Chainsword and Chainaxe, with an Exalted Champ nearby. That is...

62 Chainaxe attacks
~41 hits
~36 wounds at AP-1

20 Chainsword attacks
~13 hits
~11 wounds at AP0

Roll 36 saves, on two dice, one at a time, looking for 4+.
Then roll 11 at 3+.

The length of time would just be ridiculous.

I was commenting on survivability.

You seem to be commenting on convenience.

How many dice do you think a green tide Ork army gets through in a game?

How many individual Ork models need to use multiple dice for their save?

I wouldn't know as I don't play them - pray enlighten me.

One thing I do know is that they throw a hell of a lot of dice.

The main difference is it's one individual die per Ork. You can't fast roll a 2D6 save. At all.

**Pancakey**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think it's hilarious people are tossing around making Terminators T6 with 3W each. Ok, then what do we do for Custodes terminators at more than double the points cost? Make them T7 with 5W each? Then I guess make commanders 9W each, and now tanks have to get a pump up, so make those 17W.....

See how silly this gets? We need to keep in mind that Terminators, no matter how much we may love them, are a outdated and inferior unit to the NuBoys. You make ripples every time you change a low level unit, because everything about that needs to change to compensate. That means Aggressors have to get a change. Dreadnaughts need a change. Every single Custodes Infantry model now needs a change.

Because we decided to make a 29pt unit T6 with 3W.

The entire evolution of 8th ed has been hilarious.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

So I think a point drop might work, if they weren't already a powerful unit for the cost. Also, DW would start creaming their pants are the possibilities, unless you made DW Terminators different.

What are some other infantry/elite units that float around the 30ppm cost? How much do the Dakkabots cost per?

I honestly think their solution is the cost of their gear. Keep the models the same, but shift the cost of their weapons.

**skchsan**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I think a point drop might work, if they weren't already a powerful unit for the cost. Also, DW would start creaming their pants are the possibilities, unless you made DW Terminators different.

What are some other infantry/elite units that float around the 30ppm cost? How much do the Dakkabots cost per?

I honestly think their solution is the cost of their gear. Keep the models the same, but shift the cost of their weapons.

Agreed. Stormbolters should be 1 pt "upgrade" (with price of 1 boltgun baked into cost of terminators) and PF needs to cost more than power weapons but not 9 pts (6~7 pts). That would bring them down to 30~31 points, which would bring them up to "niche" tier from "unusable" tier. Or, give termies the option to take other power weapons other than PFs (sword, axe, maul) to keep their cost down.

**The Deer Hunter**

skchsan wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I think a point drop might work, if they weren't already a powerful unit for the cost. Also, DW would start creaming their pants are the possibilities, unless you made DW Terminators different.

What are some other infantry/elite units that float around the 30ppm cost? How much do the Dakkabots cost per?

I honestly think their solution is the cost of their gear. Keep the models the same, but shift the cost of their weapons.
Agreed. Stormbolters should be 1 pt "upgrade" (with price of 1 boltgun baked into cost of terminators) and PF needs to cost more than power weapons but not 9 pts (6~7 pts). That would bring them down to 30~31 points, which would bring them up to "niche" tier from "unusable" tier. Or, give termies the option to take other power weapons other than PFs (sword, axe, maul) to keep their cost down.

or low that ridiculous 22 points cost for assault cannon and allow 2x 5 termies