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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Renegades are not legions

And shouldn't even be in the same Codex. Let the regular Vanilla codex handle Renegades like it should've from the beginning.

Wrong. Renegades should be in the Chaos Marines Codex and Legions should be reserved for playing 30K. They have no place in 40K.

Hell, most Renegades are what remained when the Legions broke apart. The Sanctified are remnants of the disbanded Word Bearers that went full Khorne. The Prodigal Sons are literally the Chaos Marines Ahriman assembled when he became the Thousand Sons Enemy Nr. Uno and Magnus' arch-enemy, even ahead of Space Wolves. Etc...

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Renegades are not legions

And shouldn't even be in the same Codex. Let the regular Vanilla codex handle Renegades like it should've from the beginning.

Wrong. Renegades should be in the Chaos Marines Codex and Legions should be reserved for playing 30K. They have no place in 40K.

Ok tough guy, because all legions are shattered,yadda yadda.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Renegades are not legions

And shouldn't even be in the same Codex. Let the regular Vanilla codex handle Renegades like it should've from the beginning.

Wrong. Renegades should be in the Chaos Marines Codex and Legions should be reserved for playing 30K. They have no place in 40K.

Hello, loyal imperial citizen! It might come as a shock to you, but most traitor legions refuse to disband into chapters as the Codex Astartes dictates and are still around 10.000 years later.

 Jidmah wrote:


Hello, loyal imperial citizen! It might come as a shock to you, but most traitor legions refuse to disband into chapters as the Codex Astartes dictates and are still around 10.000 years later.

That's not what the lore pre 8th edition says. They were all disbanded, shattered, broke apart, followed the next best daemon princes, rebelled against their Legion (e.g. Ahriman & Prodigal Sons), strayed from the characteristics of their original Legion (e.g. Sanctified, former Word Bearers turned Khorne Berzerkers). Some joined forces (e.g. Warriors of Agganor, which merged survivors of both Word Bearers and Night Lords after the Heresy).

The Black Legion explicitly wasn't the successor to the Sons of Horus, but a hodge podge of all traitors that were continuing the cause of the Horus Heresy.

Sure, Alpha Legion was rumoured to be pulling the strings behind some Renegades such as the Shadowed Ones, but that was pretty much the extend of it and Alpha Legion lore was intentially ambigious, even more than it is now.

Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"

Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Hello, loyal imperial citizen! It might come as a shock to you, but most traitor legions refuse to disband into chapters as the Codex Astartes dictates and are still around 10.000 years later.

That's not what the lore pre 8th edition says. They were all disbanded, shattered, broke apart, followed the next best daemon princes, rebelled against their Legion (e.g. Ahriman & Prodigal Sons), strayed from the characteristics of their original Legion (e.g. Sanctified, former Word Bearers turned Khorne Berzerkers). Some joined forces (e.g. Warriors of Agganor, which merged survivors of both Word Bearers and Night Lords after the Heresy).

The Black Legion explicitly wasn't the successor to the Sons of Horus, but a hodge podge of all traitors that were continuing the cause of the Horus Heresy.

Sure, Alpha Legion was rumoured to be pulling the strings behind some Renegades such as the Shadowed Ones, but that was pretty much the extend of it and Alpha Legion lore was intentially ambigious, even more than it is now.

there is a heavy dsitinction between shattering :( EC, WE) and having splinters.
You realise that.

A infantry division is also not shattered,if one brigade splits off. or some dudes deserted.....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"

Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?

Probably the most structured legion left beyond AL, and IW, but alas...

Not Online!!! wrote:

there is a heavy dsitinction between shattering :( EC, WE) and having splinters.
You realise that.

A infantry division is also not shattered,if one brigade splits off. or some dudes deserted.....

Sure. Which is exactly the point where the post-BL-Heresy-books-success ret-con came in.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Hello, loyal imperial citizen! It might come as a shock to you, but most traitor legions refuse to disband into chapters as the Codex Astartes dictates and are still around 10.000 years later.

That's not what the lore pre 8th edition says. They were all disbanded, shattered, broke apart, followed the next best daemon princes, rebelled against their Legion (e.g. Ahriman & Prodigal Sons), strayed from the characteristics of their original Legion (e.g. Sanctified, former Word Bearers turned Khorne Berzerkers). Some joined forces (e.g. Warriors of Agganor, which merged survivors of both Word Bearers and Night Lords after the Heresy).

The Black Legion explicitly wasn't the successor to the Sons of Horus, but a hodge podge of all traitors that were continuing the cause of the Horus Heresy.

Sure, Alpha Legion was rumoured to be pulling the strings behind some Renegades such as the Shadowed Ones, but that was pretty much the extend of it and Alpha Legion lore was intentially ambigious, even more than it is now.

there is a heavy dsitinction between shattering :( EC, WE) and having splinters.
You realise that.

A infantry division is also not shattered,if one brigade splits off. or some dudes deserted.....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"

Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?

Probably the most structured legion left beyond AL, and IW, but alas...

Alpha Legion is structured? Is this canon? Not trying to undermine your post, just am curious where in the fluff this comes from

The issue is, atleast with AL, what we know is that they relied on "warhosts", which were in essence adhoc formaions. (doctrine like it's the same as a Kampfgruppe.) And even in the heresey days they relied on a lot of desinformation, sabotage and non astartes personell.

Secondly, even though they seem to be organized in Terrorcells, they seemiingly band together witout any issues in bigger formations, meaning that they indeed still have an intact comand structure.

Further, considering that AL also relies on a lot of Operatives that are not marines, and have never been banished to the warp, means that they also are probably more numerous then most legions aswell.

So overall, they should in theory not be shattered but instead be completely organized diffrently to the common legions.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://wh40k-de.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://wh40k-de.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion Hte german one goes more indepth with more sourcing.

Not Online!!! wrote:
The issue is, atleast with AL, what we know is that they relied on "warhosts", which were in essence adhoc formaions. (doctrine like it's the same as a Kampfgruppe.) And even in the heresey days they relied on a lot of desinformation, sabotage and non astartes personell.

Secondly, even though they seem to be organized in Terrorcells, they seemiingly band together witout any issues in bigger formations, meaning that they indeed still have an intact comand structure.

Further, considering that AL also relies on a lot of Operatives that are not marines, and have never been banished to the warp, means that they also are probably more numerous then most legions aswell.

So overall, they should in theory not be shattered but instead be completely organized diffrently to the common legions.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

I still think 10.000 years of dabbling with chaos left his marks on the legion . But this is me, hating the "we are actually loyalists playing the long game" idea that came up after the HH novels

 Eldarain wrote:
Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"

Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?

I think it is more a case of GW doesn't hate the architects of the heresey they simply don't have a clue how to address them.

Warp above, some recent renegade warbands i.e. Purge and the EC type one - can't remember their name at present - got better damned traits, etc.

Realistically, WB should get free daemon summons - but that would probably be broken as heck unless implemented similarly to the Khorne Daemonkin summon table.

 Eldarain wrote:
Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"

Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?

They didn't even try to half-ass a trait system or anything. Just simply doesn't exist.

It becomes increasingly obvious that they just don't know what to do with Chaos in general. This is the second time this year (CSM v2 was in March) that they had the opportunity to revisit Legion traits etc and they didn't take it.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Extra salt from the PA book we got being the only one so far without "build your own Warband/Legion trait"

Who on the design team hates Word Bearers that much?

They didn't even try to half-ass a trait system or anything. Just simply doesn't exist.

It becomes increasingly obvious that they just don't know what to do with Chaos in general. This is the second time this year (CSM v2 was in March) that they had the opportunity to revisit Legion traits etc and they didn't take it.

Ha, atleast they revist the CSm dex.

Unlike Renegades and heretics, or DG, or TS for that matter.
(then again the former is FW index army and GW is doing 'ts best to kill it outright atm and the later probably needed it less then the mainline CSM dex. Still annoying considering there are now 10 rulesources for Chaos space marines themselves...... Btw you can't even skip the shadowspear booklet due to the Psyker wl traits not beeing reprinted in dex 2.0, like dafuq?)

 Psionara wrote:

Oggthrok wrote:

Voss wrote:

Even the World Eaters one annoys me. The 'everyone in the chapter is 100% melee-crazed axe murderers all the time' just isn't functional. Khorne doesn't object to ranged killing or smart killing. He just wants blood and gobbets of flesh everywhere.
So the 'Axes Axes Axes' angle makes me pause whenever I think about making a WE force. Because at some point a World Eaters solo book may actually happen and strip out over half the codex from their options. Which would be beyond infuriating, but given TS and DG, it seems a perfectly legitimate concern.

When Death Guard received their own codes, it was hard to ignore the obvious. That is, until the codex, bikers and Obliterators were the cornerstone of any Death Guard army. And, guess what got removed completely?

Definitely agree on the World Eaters, because I have an army of them, and I expect one of these days they’ll get a codex and it will consist of Kharn and the unit entry for a new Berzerker kit that will cost $40 for five. (comes with two chain axes and ten chain swords, so the unit can have a maximum of two axes to comply with the kit)

I am guessing World Eaters' Khorne Bezerkers will be boxed as 8, as Death Guard's number is 7 and they receive 7 in a box, Thousand Sons' number is 9 and they receive 9 in a box. Safe to assume that Emperor's Children will receive 6 Noise Marines. Price wise, I think we will be looking at $60 USD for each box.

What kills me about this is the lack of any kind of buff for running the sacred numbers. Units are still 10 man, on paper, and the boxes are sold as if they were 10 man boxes, in price, but the boxes only hold sacred numbers of troops with super-sub-optimal loadout capabilities? It was one of the most easily identifiable ways to slip in a fix for cult armies.

Regardless, GW has no imagination. I'm sure these boards could realistically create 50 different unique fixes in the form of functional and balanced abilities, psyker powers and so forth. GW keeps acting like it's "6 dudes in a garage creating the kind of wargame they love to play" instead of hiring professional and/or passionate people to do work writing and refining a functional game system for the largest and most profitable wargames company in the world.

 purplkrush wrote:

 Psionara wrote:

Oggthrok wrote:

Voss wrote:

Even the World Eaters one annoys me. The 'everyone in the chapter is 100% melee-crazed axe murderers all the time' just isn't functional. Khorne doesn't object to ranged killing or smart killing. He just wants blood and gobbets of flesh everywhere.
So the 'Axes Axes Axes' angle makes me pause whenever I think about making a WE force. Because at some point a World Eaters solo book may actually happen and strip out over half the codex from their options. Which would be beyond infuriating, but given TS and DG, it seems a perfectly legitimate concern.

When Death Guard received their own codes, it was hard to ignore the obvious. That is, until the codex, bikers and Obliterators were the cornerstone of any Death Guard army. And, guess what got removed completely?

Definitely agree on the World Eaters, because I have an army of them, and I expect one of these days they’ll get a codex and it will consist of Kharn and the unit entry for a new Berzerker kit that will cost $40 for five. (comes with two chain axes and ten chain swords, so the unit can have a maximum of two axes to comply with the kit)

I am guessing World Eaters' Khorne Bezerkers will be boxed as 8, as Death Guard's number is 7 and they receive 7 in a box, Thousand Sons' number is 9 and they receive 9 in a box. Safe to assume that Emperor's Children will receive 6 Noise Marines. Price wise, I think we will be looking at $60 USD for each box.

What kills me about this is the lack of any kind of buff for running the sacred numbers. Units are still 10 man, on paper, and the boxes are sold as if they were 10 man boxes, in price, but the boxes only hold sacred numbers of troops with super-sub-optimal loadout capabilities? It was one of the most easily identifiable ways to slip in a fix for cult armies.

Regardless, GW has no imagination. I'm sure these boards could realistically create 50 different unique fixes in the form of functional and balanced abilities, psyker powers and so forth. GW keeps acting like it's "6 dudes in a garage creating the kind of wargame they love to play" instead of hiring professional and/or passionate people to do work writing and refining a functional game system for the largest and most profitable wargames company in the world.

> If cult marines are in their sacred number squad size, count them as having 10-man for the purpose of taking special weapons

> If chaos marine squads are in 20 man, double the number of special/heavy weapons they can take

They are now better, reflects the fluff, takes advantage of csm's unique ability to take 20 man squads, and isn't OP

The sacred numbers and powers rivalries are fun and fluffy concepts that have seen their day. Having to build around numbers was a hassle and advantaged some powers more than others really.

I think we're as good as we're getting for awhile. The TS soup component is getting an upgrade, so that will help.

If you really wanted to move the needle without bringing in new units and models, there's some pretty simple stuff you could do.

- Make the 4 primary cult marine units into Troops for every legion.
- Make Possessed into Troops for every legion.

This wouldn't fix CSM problems entirely, but it would certainly make them more competitive and bring some more variety to the lists going on to the table. Word Bearers might have a viable soup build or two.

 Continuity wrote:
This is old news for chaos players, chaos space marines are the worst unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines, CSM codex """"2.0"""" is a scam, cultists get nerfed in every major rule update, the list goes on.

The overall state of chaos marines is pathetic.

Oh please, they're not that bad at all. I run them all the time and have no issues with them. They are the main troops for my armies, I never even run cultists (i don't even own any) and putting them in a Rhino makes getting to objectives speedy. They put out a decent amount of bolter fire and save on a 3+ (2+ in cover) and can take two plasma guns per ten (I usually give them two HBs, but ymmv). I also enjoy running a brick of 20 with chainswords and BP up the field with a Lord, Champion and a Apostle/Sorcerer for some really nasty ass melee action. I've had some great outcomes where my spikey power armor has won me a game or two.

Also: We're getting new traits and two wounds in CA2019 so things are going to get a lot better for the legions pretty soon.

Troops are supposed to sit on objectives and score VP.

Why does every unit in the game need some special snowflake nonsense?

 Togusa wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
This is old news for chaos players, chaos space marines are the worst unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines, CSM codex """"2.0"""" is a scam, cultists get nerfed in every major rule update, the list goes on.

The overall state of chaos marines is pathetic.

Also: We're getting new traits and two wounds in CA2019 so things are going to get a lot better for the legions pretty soon.

Review copies for CA2019 has been out for a week and there was no mention of new traits or 2 wounds for anything

 Continuity wrote:


Review copies for CA2019 has been out for a week and there was no mention of new traits or 2 wounds for anything

The only way that rumor makes any sense now is if they were mistaken about which book it was in and PA has those changes, but only for TS and PG. Incredibly unlikely at this point.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Continuity wrote:


Review copies for CA2019 has been out for a week and there was no mention of new traits or 2 wounds for anything

The only way that rumor makes any sense now is if they were mistaken about which book it was in and PA has those changes, but only for TS and PG. Incredibly unlikely at this point.

It would also massively annoy the other csm players.
Until we and Ec show up that is

Yoyoyo wrote:
Troops are supposed to sit on objectives and score VP.

Why does every unit in the game need some special snowflake nonsense?

Plenty of factions use troops to do heavy lifting. Orks, GSC, Nids, Daemons, and marines recently won a GT with 50 intercessors also.

 Continuity wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
This is old news for chaos players, chaos space marines are the worst unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines, CSM codex """"2.0"""" is a scam, cultists get nerfed in every major rule update, the list goes on.

The overall state of chaos marines is pathetic.

Also: We're getting new traits and two wounds in CA2019 so things are going to get a lot better for the legions pretty soon.

Review copies for CA2019 has been out for a week and there was no mention of new traits or 2 wounds for anything

Yes, this rumor has been officially debunked as false at least as far as CA is concerned. Who knows this might be a plan later down when TS/DG get their new codex (whenever that is) and dare I say the eventual WE/EC codexes (soon*)

*TM

 bullyboy wrote:
To the OP....where have you been?

As a response, the Iron Warrior trait is nowhere near as bad as people make out. Ignoring cover is a big deal. Granted, IF get that +1, but it's still a decent trait overall (compared to some of the others). Haven't looked at what they got in F+F yet, but I hear positive remarks. Space Marine level, heck no, but hopefully some good synergies.

Actually the IW trait is god-tier in my local meta because we basically play city fight all the time with all the scalable ruins terrain in my FLGS. "Oh, so you hid your Precious in a building somewhere? Well, here are 3 deepstriking Oblits. And you don't get a cover save because IW. Have fun!"

Pandabeer wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
To the OP....where have you been?

As a response, the Iron Warrior trait is nowhere near as bad as people make out. Ignoring cover is a big deal. Granted, IF get that +1, but it's still a decent trait overall (compared to some of the others). Haven't looked at what they got in F+F yet, but I hear positive remarks. Space Marine level, heck no, but hopefully some good synergies.

Actually the IW trait is god-tier in my local meta because we basically play city fight all the time with all the scalable ruins terrain in my FLGS. "Oh, so you hid your Precious in a building somewhere? Well, here are 3 deepstriking Oblits. And you don't get a cover save because IW. Have fun!"

Ignoring cover is actually a really good trait and useful in most situations. Less for Chaos due to it only effecting infantry and dreads rather than everything

I expect this to become even more of a valuable trait if the trend continues to replace -1 to hit traits with count in cover instead

 Continuity wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Troops are supposed to sit on objectives and score VP.

Why does every unit in the game need some special snowflake nonsense?

Plenty of factions use troops to do heavy lifting. Orks, GSC, Nids, Daemons, and marines recently won a GT with 50 intercessors also.

It's a poor argument anyway because the problems with Marine troops are the exact same as the problems with all their infantry. This isn't a case that Chosen/Vets were viable and CSM/Tacs weren't. Its a problem of All marine infantry that doesn't have a gratuitous amount of special rules piled on not being viable.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
The sacred numbers and powers rivalries are fun and fluffy concepts that have seen their day. Having to build around numbers was a hassle and advantaged some powers more than others really.

I think we're as good as we're getting for awhile. The TS soup component is getting an upgrade, so that will help.

If you really wanted to move the needle without bringing in new units and models, there's some pretty simple stuff you could do.

- Make the 4 primary cult marine units into Troops for every legion.
- Make Possessed into Troops for every legion.

This wouldn't fix CSM problems entirely, but it would certainly make them more competitive and bring some more variety to the lists going on to the table. Word Bearers might have a viable soup build or two.

You simply won't get thousand sons zerkers, or emperors children rubrics etc. So I cant buy into that, likewise possessed as troops I do like but doesnt fit in for TS at least.

Dudeface wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
The sacred numbers and powers rivalries are fun and fluffy concepts that have seen their day. Having to build around numbers was a hassle and advantaged some powers more than others really.

I think we're as good as we're getting for awhile. The TS soup component is getting an upgrade, so that will help.

If you really wanted to move the needle without bringing in new units and models, there's some pretty simple stuff you could do.

- Make the 4 primary cult marine units into Troops for every legion.
- Make Possessed into Troops for every legion.

This wouldn't fix CSM problems entirely, but it would certainly make them more competitive and bring some more variety to the lists going on to the table. Word Bearers might have a viable soup build or two.

You simply won't get thousand sons zerkers, or emperors children rubrics etc. So I cant buy into that, likewise possessed as troops I do like but doesnt fit in for TS at least.

Zerkers are Khorne, TS, DG and EC cannot take Khorne units, making them troops for everyone wouldn't change that.

 vict0988 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
The sacred numbers and powers rivalries are fun and fluffy concepts that have seen their day. Having to build around numbers was a hassle and advantaged some powers more than others really.

I think we're as good as we're getting for awhile. The TS soup component is getting an upgrade, so that will help.

If you really wanted to move the needle without bringing in new units and models, there's some pretty simple stuff you could do.

- Make the 4 primary cult marine units into Troops for every legion.
- Make Possessed into Troops for every legion.

This wouldn't fix CSM problems entirely, but it would certainly make them more competitive and bring some more variety to the lists going on to the table. Word Bearers might have a viable soup build or two.

You simply won't get thousand sons zerkers, or emperors children rubrics etc. So I cant buy into that, likewise possessed as troops I do like but doesnt fit in for TS at least.

Zerkers are Khorne, TS, DG and EC cannot take Khorne units, making them troops for everyone wouldn't change that.

Ahh I see, I hadn't read it that way, I took it as a suggestion they should appear as troops in all legions irrespective of mark.

I'd quite like to see them do a custom chapter affair where you can trade trait rules for access to gods, get some renegades who will only court with nurgle & slaanesh for example but have fewer special rules than an undivided warband.

Dudeface wrote:
I'd quite like to see them do a custom chapter affair where you can trade trait rules for access to gods, get some renegades who will only court with nurgle & slaanesh for example but have fewer special rules than an undivided warband.

What's the benefit of being Nurgle/Slaanesh in this scenario if you have fewer special rules than an undivided warband?