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So I've been interested in playing Eldar but have no idea where to start. It seems like there a lot of useful tools but what would be a solid core to start building around?
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
Funnily enough I just run 9 spiders on Friday. Was up against 23 shining spears, 3 prisms and 2 night spinners.
I really like them and they are really cool models. But I think they are too pricey for what they bring. Surprise assult is awesome, but even with doom they struggled to degrade a fire prisms. ANd for chaff clearance theres just better optiosn in the form of tempest launchers and shuriken cats/hawks.
Shadow spectres seem infinitely better. (I run those as well )
The problem is they want to be alitoic for that -2/-3/-4 So you kind of end up being forced into that detachment which is hard to reconcile.
I will be testing the same list out again thought because I really liked it and did really well with it. Wraithseer with shroud was an absolute MVP!
Might drop a couple spiders to about 6-7 and use the pts on the rest of the army as I think 9 was too much of a foot print to DS and get all in range.
I just realised I overpaid 13pts for a second star cannon on one of the lords hmm interesting. lol
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dr.Scheme wrote: So I've been interested in playing Eldar but have no idea where to start. It seems like there a lot of useful tools but what would be a solid core to start building around?
I would consider a battalion so 2x HQ and 3x Troops and a wave serpent. I think you absolutely cant go wrong.
Dire avengers are really solid troops and they are nice plastic kits.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/02/24 01:26:37
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
The problem with spiders are there guns are crap, their rules are great except their guns are crap. The need to be tweakewith at least an additional shot. Ideally they'd be similar to previous incarnations with range 15, assault 2d3, s 6 0 ap 1 d Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit is resolved with an AP of -4 instead of 0.
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
The problem with spiders are there guns are crap, their rules are great except their guns are crap. The need to be tweakewith at least an additional shot. Ideally they'd be similar to previous incarnations with range 15, assault 2d3, s 6 0 ap 1 d Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit is resolved with an AP of -4 instead of 0.
That make them a nice flanker hit and run unit
I think they should go back to their second edition iteration and be flamer weapons.
I always liked the idea of a cloud of monofilament wire.
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Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
The problem with spiders are there guns are crap, their rules are great except their guns are crap. The need to be tweakewith at least an additional shot. Ideally they'd be similar to previous incarnations with range 15, assault 2d3, s 6 0 ap 1 d Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit is resolved with an AP of -4 instead of 0.
That make them a nice flanker hit and run unit
I think they should go back to their second edition iteration and be flamer weapons.
I always liked the idea of a cloud of monofilament wire.
You can I'd stay 2d3 shots with stats o mentioned above
Dr.Scheme wrote: So I've been interested in playing Eldar but have no idea where to start. It seems like there a lot of useful tools but what would be a solid core to start building around?
What models do you like the look of? There are many potential answers to your question, and (IMHO) lots of ways to build a decent list these days, so no reason to buy/build/paint models you don’t like just because they’re not “the most optimal” or whatever
Another thing to consider - what’s your meta like? How small will you be able to play your first game? If you know someone who will play you at 500pts/25PL and maybe proxy that makes a difference too.
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
The problem with spiders are there guns are crap, their rules are great except their guns are crap. The need to be tweakewith at least an additional shot. Ideally they'd be similar to previous incarnations with range 15, assault 2d3, s 6 0 ap 1 d Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit is resolved with an AP of -4 instead of 0.
That make them a nice flanker hit and run unit
I think they should go back to their second edition iteration and be flamer weapons.
I always liked the idea of a cloud of monofilament wire.
You can I'd stay 2d3 shots with stats o mentioned above
I would LOVE to see something for monofilament weapons. Like some sort of trait to add shots, or a once per battle strat that would make them go off on max -4 AP or something.
Id imagine like you can absolutely crank out the output once per battle. Something would be nice to make thematic lists with night spinners and spiders.
Currently spiders are competing with shadow specters. Who are just soo much better.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
The problem with spiders is they don't do anything that other stuff doesn't do better. Guardians and dire avengers are better at killing doomed stuff and clearing chaff, other stuff is better at killing elite infantry...they just don't have anything they do particularly great, nor are they good at so many roles that it compensates for not being great at anything.
It's kinda the same problem as with striking scorpions. Except that scorpions are at least dirt cheap.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/25 04:02:00
Damn, all you brahs are picking in my boys whole I've been away....
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
Very useful skill, gives them a bit more dting. if you can drop them in one side of the table, kill an isolated unit, they can get half way to the other side and support where needed afterwards. Or just charged something as well.
Excited to see what the potential Phoenix lord can do.
Excited to see what the potential Phoenix lord can do.
Lets not propagate this rumour until we actually get some sort of sneak peak.. There's enough of having our hopes getting dumped on as it is... :(
On warp spiders. I'm considering running little teams of 5 to try and snipe out characters. How do you normally run yours and what traits ? Only alitoic seems to make sense to me. I found doing a bigger unit limits where you can drop down whilst getting the most out of the re-rolls.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/25 04:19:44
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I dunno, I don't think you're going to be able to reliably snipe many characters that matter with a MSU spider squad, assuming your opponent is competent enough to screen what needs to be screened.
It seems to me the "best" use is probably to clear out MSU objective-camper squads that they can bully with the alpha strike from surprise assault. But the trouble is the units they can actually reliably bully this way is pretty limited due to the lack of natural AP and inability to hit a charge, meaning that if you don't wipe the squad with the surprise assault you statistically aren't even likely to deny them the objective, much less take it yourself. "Hit and hope" mechanics don't really mesh that well with objective play.
They are really hurt by having to rely on luck to kill anything with an armor save.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Again the biggest problem with spiders is their guns are super weak with the current meta. Fix that and they naturally improve them. Again the other problem is that the shadow spectre basically the same niche with a better gun and always having a -1 to hit. Fixe the spiders gun and you solve as bunch of issues
The guns with free re-roll and ignore cover are not bad. The biggest problem was always "12 range. It is so short that you have problems even when DSing 9", and it makes you very vulnerable to charges. But even shooting itself is difficult as you may only have an option to target some trash instead of bigger unit you want behind 2 tau drones.
Even a +4" would help. Or bring back the warp jump in Assault phase. This is why people generally like Hawks more.
The same +4" would also greatly help Dragons btw.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/25 18:53:25
Dr.Scheme wrote: So I've been interested in playing Eldar but have no idea where to start. It seems like there a lot of useful tools but what would be a solid core to start building around?
Got a victory against UM tonight. Masterful shots and expert crafters combined with lots of star and shuri cannons seems to be the only way to go vs primaris. I even took a wraithknight tonight and he done really very well until his dice turned on him.
We did the CA 2019 Maelstrom Disruptive tactics and used the new schemes of war method for selecting tactical objectives. I must admit I'm a fan of the new CA missions and can see why folks like them. The building a deck thing is a great idea and I heartily recommend people give them a try.
table and me deployed, sorry about the quality.
Spoiler:
My list:
Spoiler:
Autarch: WL:ignore overwatch,
Farseer: SS, fortune, mind war,
DA(9): Ex:2 x a-cats, bladestorm,
DA(9): Ex:2 x a-cats, bladestorm,
Defenders (18): 1 x ShuriCannon, 1 cp to DS,
WS: twin Starcannons, 1 x shuricannon, CTM, Spirit stones,
WS: twin Starcannons, 1 x shuricannon, CTM, Spirit stones,
WW: 2x Starcannons,
WW: 2x Shuricannons,
It was a very solid list and a hard fight even though mine is pretty good for fighting primaris. The incursors, scouts and invictor in your face at the start is a helluva thing to deal with. I just could not kill his redemptor dreadnought and I had a WS on 1 wound that took so many shots at it it wasn't funny.
I think I would take the invulnerables on the DA instead of the 2x A-cats on the exarch as the blade storm makes up for his loss of shots and the invul messes with the AP minuses. Especially in a big squad.
Wraithblades had no luck with quicken, back to protect I think. This would also help the DA's with their invuls.
Chapter masters and lieutenants are a brutal combo for a UM mobile gunline.
Congratulations. Interesting list. What points was this 2k? Dunno how you managed with 8 CP
I struggle hard without a dual battalion.
On another topic, I've been thinking and I think DA's are a trap still. I think at 11ppm 1 DA is not worth 2(1.8?) storm guardians.. you can get 8 SGs for the price of 5 DA's and nearly have pts left over for a star cannon. Dual cat with expert crafters is nice but at 18" its just not enough. With masters of concealment and enemy not ignoring cover they are surprisingly survivable but still give up VPs easily. Rangers likewise just dont seem to do enough if all they ae going to do is sit back and hug an objective then stormies are cheaper... Stormies fare better as you can give them celestial shield or just not care about them at all. Nobody wants to shoot at storm guardians.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/02/26 04:19:00
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
That Wraithknight with dual HWCs and expert crafters with Concealment is really good.
Also, while I typically play Wraithseers in a Ynnari detachment with Lost Shroud and another with Lord of Rebirth ... I must say that running one with a D-Cannon and Mark of Incomparable Hunter is absolute hilarity. Just popping characters left and right without needing LOS and also getting the Crafters re-rolls is absolute money.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/26 04:20:56
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wannabmoy wrote: That Wraithknight with dual HWCs and expert crafters with Concealment is really good.
Also, while I typically play Wraithseers in a Ynnari detachment with Lost Shroud and another with Lord of Rebirth ... I must say that running one with a D-Cannon and Mark of Incomparable Hunter is absolute hilarity. Just popping characters left and right without needing LOS and also getting the Crafters re-rolls is absolute money.
This is known Snipy wraithseers are fun but sadly have a major VP bullseye on their forehead haha... Star cannon works swell as well.
Really ? Seems like an awful lot pts to pay for 4x D6dmg shots...
The sword and board versions appeal to me. coz they actually cheap. Would like to try runing 3 but only have the one
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
wannabmoy wrote: That Wraithknight with dual HWCs and expert crafters with Concealment is really good.
Also, while I typically play Wraithseers in a Ynnari detachment with Lost Shroud and another with Lord of Rebirth ... I must say that running one with a D-Cannon and Mark of Incomparable Hunter is absolute hilarity. Just popping characters left and right without needing LOS and also getting the Crafters re-rolls is absolute money.
This is known Snipy wraithseers are fun but sadly have a major VP bullseye on their forehead haha... Star cannon works swell as well.
Really ? Seems like an awful lot pts to pay for 4x D6dmg shots...
The sword and board versions appeal to me. coz they actually cheap. Would like to try runing 3 but only have the one
The Lost Shroud Wraithseer can definitely tank a good amount of firepower and while you will give up kingslayer, it will take a ton of enemy firepower. Not saying it's ultra-competitive, but it's fun for sure!
The 2+ cover save really helps and with expert crafters you're pretty reliably putting through 7-12 damage at range. Again, I'm not saying it's the most efficient and top-level competitive option, but there's definitely play. They can be especially scary with the Vigilus Detachment with a 2+/4++/5+++ (fortune).
I've had some fun running three of them recently and they weren't as bad as you'd think with expert and concealment. I ran 1x dual HWC and 2x sun and stars. Sword and board is decent but for a few extra points, you can interact in the shooting phase and most things want to be stomped anyway.
Chief Filthy Casual at GDFC
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@Argive it was 2k. I usually do have a dual battalion but we went up to 2k and I wanted the WK and had 2 drop the 2nd one. It was hard not to blow them quickly but I never used more than 1 for the first 2 turns. Autarch got me one back which was nice.
I don't think the in-cover trait works as well in my meta as we tend to have decent amount of scenery, hence why the ignores cover one works better for me. Expert crafters is just brilliant.
In respect to WK's I find that the 2 x HWC is just not really very effective and the SC/SS works better but again I think that's meta dependent as I face loads of marines. I have not tried it with expert crafters though.
wannabmoy wrote: That Wraithknight with dual HWCs and expert crafters with Concealment is really good.
Also, while I typically play Wraithseers in a Ynnari detachment with Lost Shroud and another with Lord of Rebirth ... I must say that running one with a D-Cannon and Mark of Incomparable Hunter is absolute hilarity. Just popping characters left and right without needing LOS and also getting the Crafters re-rolls is absolute money.
This is known Snipy wraithseers are fun but sadly have a major VP bullseye on their forehead haha... Star cannon works swell as well.
Really ? Seems like an awful lot pts to pay for 4x D6dmg shots...
The sword and board versions appeal to me. coz they actually cheap. Would like to try runing 3 but only have the one
The Lost Shroud Wraithseer can definitely tank a good amount of firepower and while you will give up kingslayer, it will take a ton of enemy firepower. Not saying it's ultra-competitive, but it's fun for sure!
The 2+ cover save really helps and with expert crafters you're pretty reliably putting through 7-12 damage at range. Again, I'm not saying it's the most efficient and top-level competitive option, but there's definitely play. They can be especially scary with the Vigilus Detachment with a 2+/4++/5+++ (fortune).
I've had some fun running three of them recently and they weren't as bad as you'd think with expert and concealment. I ran 1x dual HWC and 2x sun and stars. Sword and board is decent but for a few extra points, you can interact in the shooting phase and most things want to be stomped anyway.
But do you give up warlord if you have a CWE character warlord and use Exalted of ynnead to make a wraith seer a second warlord plus pick a relic for another wraithseer from the ynnari section ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Id think bare bones triple WK pelting at the enemy full tilt sounds great. Just hope they start exploding in their lines lol.. Perhaps stick star cannons on them for a bit of dakka.
The vigilus stratagem is 3 CP for one turn of 4++ though... I've run it on blobs of wraith guard before . The extra attack start for 1 CP is where its at.
I do like my wraiths. Currently running 3 wraithlords and 2 wraithssers. Small wraiths have their own problems of being too slow and needing a fair bit of buffs :(.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/26 23:06:06
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I have to say, I loathe expert crafters. Because it is so good that you feel like you're giving up a lot by not taking it, but by taking it, you're locked into a pretty lame, gimmicky way of playing the game - and one that feels totally at odds with how Eldar have traditionally been built as a combined arms faction that has to utilize multiple specialized units in complementary ways to create something more than the sum of its parts.
Meanwhile expert crafters is just the complete opposite, everybody is his own self-sufficient reroll bubble, and the more alone they are, the better, because you get more benefit from the reroll gimmick.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 04:12:01
yukishiro1 wrote: I have to say, I loathe expert crafters. Because it is so good that you feel like you're giving up a lot by not taking it, but by taking it, you're locked into a pretty lame, gimmicky way of playing the game - and one that feels totally at odds with how Eldar have traditionally been built as a combined arms faction that has to utilize multiple specialized units in complementary ways to create something more than the sum of its parts.
Meanwhile expert crafters is just the complete opposite, everybody is his own self-sufficient reroll bubble, and the more alone they are, the better, because you get more benefit from the reroll gimmick.
I disagree. I think having it as an option means you are not locked into gimmicky Doom + Guide deathblob combo... War walker squadropns, reapers, guardians etc. Instead your heavy fire elements can operate independently. For example the main downside to taking things like odd walkers, wraithlords or falcons was because you had to either waste an autarch for a pesky re-rolls 1's or a guide on like 1 model... We are free from that now and can build many different lists.
The custom traits is great in that you can then take a second detachment that specialises at melee with relic hunters and headstrong or mass shuriken infantry with extra ap/range.... I see it as having separate elements working as one but being independent enough not to be crippled by a single unit being lost. The game no longer hinges on doom/guide going off.
Of course going full MSU has its draw backs also. You give up VPs easier, and also not really being able to benefit from forewarned as you don't have any single one unit able to really put the hurt down.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/27 05:21:27
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
That's all true. But it's what I don't like about it. I would have really preferred if PA gave us more ways to play the existing options we already had rather than just throwing up its hands and giving us something that makes obsolete the whole identity of the race. It feels like lazy design to me, especially in the way that instead of improving the traditional craftworlds it just threw in the towel on the lore having any relationship to the game.
I mean like if they really were committed to the "you get a reroll! you get a reroll! everybody gets a reroll!" thing, they could have at least allowed it to be accessed within the normal Eldar play options - say, by letting you swap out traditional guide and doom for more diffuse versions that each go on three different units instead, but with a more limited bonus, or something like that.
I totally understand that lots of people have different feelings on this than I do. But I can't help feeling like it's a big shame and a huge failure of imagination.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 05:56:59
yukishiro1 wrote: That's all true. But it's what I don't like about it. I would have really preferred if PA gave us more ways to play the existing options we already had rather than just throwing up its hands and giving us something that makes obsolete the whole identity of the race. It feels like lazy design to me, especially in the way that instead of improving the traditional craftworlds it just threw in the towel on the lore having any relationship to the game.
I mean like if they really were committed to the "you get a reroll! you get a reroll! everybody gets a reroll!" thing, they could have at least allowed it to be accessed within the normal Eldar play options - say, by letting you swap out traditional guide and doom for more diffuse versions that each go on three different units instead, but with a more limited bonus, or something like that.
I totally understand that lots of people have different feelings on this than I do. But I can't help feeling like it's a real shame.
Without shadow of a doubt, there was a lot of good things that could and should have been done with PR book especialy when you look at marines.
Our Warlord Traitsm Relics and startegems are very very weak. We needed these improved and expanded and not a slew of near useless traits and exarch powers. Also the whole Legends thing really hurt any kind of options we had for our Autarchs.
I totally agree PA1 sucked big time. But im making good with what we got and it certainly was a bunch of sidegrades rather than upgrades.
Like alitoic is still really useful vs anything that doesn't re-roll everything. But chapter masters are a thing and they are everywhere..
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
)
Eldar- 4436 pts
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
. The extra attack start for 1