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It's 9th points, vypers with one cannon and twin cats is 50 PTS.

With the prevalance of Eradicators, I don't see Waveserpents as particularly tougher than Raiders with their 5++ in the new meta; certainly not when you see the points are almost double.

2x5xDAs and a serpent with star cannons cost about 314pts.

10 wyches with blast pistol and good weapons in a dizzy raider cost 225pts.

I know which one I'd prefer to see rocking up and contesting an objective against my troops.

It takes two squads of eradicators to pop a serpent, if they're dedicating that much firepower to a transport I'm not complaining! Because I'm not looking to get aggressive with my avengers initially I can happily hide my serpents behind obscuring cover if necessary.
The problem I see is that drukhari transports is that they don't need heavy firepower to take down, things like assault cannons can take them out pretty efficiently. Then if you catch wyches out in the open even las guns take them out effortlessly.

 kingheff wrote:
It takes two squads of eradicators to pop a serpent, if they're dedicating that much firepower to a transport I'm not complaining! Because I'm not looking to get aggressive with my avengers initially I can happily hide my serpents behind obscuring cover if necessary.
The problem I see is that drukhari transports is that they don't need heavy firepower to take down, things like assault cannons can take them out pretty efficiently. Then if you catch wyches out in the open even las guns take them out effortlessly.

Just checking the math...

Unsupported
6 shots
4 hits
8/3 wounds
8/3 failed saves
64/9 damage (outside of Melta range), or just over 7 damage

With Support (CM and Lt.)
6 shots
48/9 hits
112/27 wounds
112/27 failed saves
896/81 damage (outside of Melta range), or about 11 damage

So, it will, on average, live even through supported Eradicators. I used 8/3 for the damage multiplier, since I assumed you have NOT used the Serpent Shield yet.

It takes, on average, 4.875 unsaved wounds (rounded to 5) to kill a Wave Serpent with Shield, outside of Melta range.
6.55% chance of killing it without support, assuming average damage.
40.17% chance of killing it with support, same assumptions.

If you close to Melta range, that changes the math.



Damage increases by about 5%. Not actually that much!

Still takes an average of 5 shots to kill, so the math is mostly unchanged.

But, with Spirit Stones, it has an effective 15.6 wounds.
That means you need 6 unsaved wounds, whether or not they have Melta range.

Hats off on doing the actual maths! I just used the mathhammer app to get 6.6 damage or 9.2 in melts range. I usually go for unsupported values because I think it's more representative of actual battlefield scenarios.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, your maths has made me think that I may swap out the underslung cannon for twin catapults and spirit stones.

 kingheff wrote:
Hats off on doing the actual maths! I just used the mathhammer app to get 6.6 damage or 9.2 in melts range. I usually go for unsupported values because I think it's more representative of actual battlefield scenarios.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, your maths has made me think that I may swap out the underslung cannon for twin catapults and spirit stones.

Ah, I see. The Mathhammer app is wrong-it uses 2.5 for the damage of a d6 weapon against a Serpent Shield equipped Wave Serpent, when it should be 2.67.

My mistake on the Vyper math. I thought that he had written Vypers with 2 shuri cannons rather than only 1 with twin cats.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Kingheff - is this list already 9th edition?
If so, just curious and too lazy, how many points would this in the 8th?

In 8th this list was 1759, most of the difference is the Avengers (+48pts) and the Vibros (+90). Everything else is pretty minor, just a cumulative effect.

Forgot the one..

That’s not how it works.

It averages to 8/3 damage per failed save-since 1s are NOT reduced to 0.

Cancel that! Would have to subtract 5/6 of failed saves to make that work, not the whole value.

Good work on the math, that does change my mind somewhat, especially with spiritstones. A Waveserpent with TAML and stones comes in at 180pt. Expensive but solid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingheff wrote:

The problem I see is that drukhari transports is that they don't need heavy firepower to take down, things like assault cannons can take them out pretty efficiently. Then if you catch wyches out in the open even las guns take them out effortlessly.

This is very true, heavy bolters and their ilk are bad news for Raiders. I'm happy enough to just deal with that, but the punishing increase to wyches really does sting, when as you say they are lasgun-allergic...

I think we need to focus on our strengths, speed and firepower.
I suspect we'll have to run as a mid game onwards force.
Tough and cheap stuff in midfield early to keep the scoreboard ticking over until we kill enough to hopefully take over the primary objective from turn three onwards.

 kingheff wrote:
I think we need to focus on our strengths, speed and firepower.
I suspect we'll have to run as a mid game onwards force.
Tough and cheap stuff in midfield early to keep the scoreboard ticking over until we kill enough to hopefully take over the primary objective from turn three onwards.

Indeed, this plan is worth considering especially because we have a chance to get cover and so eventually get unharmed through the initial game phase.

 grouchoben wrote:
Good work on the math, that does change my mind somewhat, especially with spiritstones. A Waveserpent with TAML and stones comes in at 180pt. Expensive but solid.

No problem. I kinda enjoy math, odd as that may be.

 kingheff wrote:
I think we need to focus on our strengths, speed and firepower.
I suspect we'll have to run as a mid game onwards force.
Tough and cheap stuff in midfield early to keep the scoreboard ticking over until we kill enough to hopefully take over the primary objective from turn three onwards.

Considering no scoring in turn one this doesn't sound that bad, moreso considering the mobility of bikes, serpents and well everything ^^ we're in a good position to cover the board.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
I think we need to focus on our strengths, speed and firepower.
I suspect we'll have to run as a mid game onwards force.
Tough and cheap stuff in midfield early to keep the scoreboard ticking over until we kill enough to hopefully take over the primary objective from turn three onwards.

Considering no scoring in turn one this doesn't sound that bad, moreso considering the mobility of bikes, serpents and well everything ^^ we're in a good position to cover the board.

Assuming everything goes to plan, it's not like plans ever go wrong, especially when dice are involved!

2 Squads of Dark Reapers hidden in 2 Falcons with starcannon/SC on turn 1, pop them out at the beginning and lay waste to your opponents troops choices trying to move up and score ( goodbye Primaris models ) Falcons would provide fire support and move them if they need to later.

2 Squads of DA in waveserpents moving up to objectives to score, pop them out turn 2 and finish off any troops left alive after dark reapers and falcons hopefully fire for a second time on turn 2. Add whatever else you want to the list and psychic powers of course. Seems like a decent way to start 9th edition for these missions for a 2000 point list.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
2 Squads of Dark Reapers hidden in 2 Falcons with starcannon/SC on turn 1, pop them out at the beginning and lay waste to your opponents troops choices trying to move up and score ( goodbye Primaris models ) Falcons would provide fire support and move them if they need to later.

2 Squads of DA in waveserpents moving up to objectives to score, pop them out turn 2 and finish off any troops left alive after dark reapers and falcons hopefully fire for a second time on turn 2. Add whatever else you want to the list and psychic powers of course. Seems like a decent way to start 9th edition for these missions for a 2000 point list.

I just so happen to have all of these models...Cool Beans

I will be trying this for sure

 Crusaderobr wrote:
2 Squads of Dark Reapers hidden in 2 Falcons with starcannon/SC on turn 1, pop them out at the beginning and lay waste to your opponents troops choices trying to move up and score ( goodbye Primaris models ) Falcons would provide fire support and move them if they need to later.

2 Squads of DA in waveserpents moving up to objectives to score, pop them out turn 2 and finish off any troops left alive after dark reapers and falcons hopefully fire for a second time on turn 2. Add whatever else you want to the list and psychic powers of course. Seems like a decent way to start 9th edition for these missions for a 2000 point list.

It appears that the units stand one turn (the enemy turn) in the fire before they can score in the cmd phase.
For our squishy units this is not really good news.

Aye, there's the rub.

Our troops are just so squishy!

But I have some really great news! I'm not sure it will continue like this into our codex, but for now, at the opening of the 9e meta, currently fusion guns are zero points.

This is very big news for Storm Guardians, as they can take two FREE fusion guns per squad now. That means 10 storm guardians w/fusions has actually gone down in points from 100pts to 90pts, and I can say from running two squads with exactly that loadout in Serpents for a lot of 8e, they are a solid little troops choice that synergise very nicely with expert crafters.

So here it is, the building block I'm going to be running in all my test games for the next month:

Wave Serpent w/Spirit Stones & Starcannons
11 Storm guadians w/ 2 fusion guns
= 269pts for some nice durability, AT and obsec.

EDIT: Nope, as pointed out by the scotsman and Sariger, this is based off a battlescribe error.

 grouchoben wrote:
Aye, there's the rub.

Our troops are just so squishy!

But I have some really great news! I'm not sure it will continue like this into our codex, but for now, at the opening of the 9e meta, currently fusion guns are zero points.

This is very big news for Storm Guardians, as they can take two FREE fusion guns per squad now. That means 10 storm guardians w/fusions has actually gone down in points from 100pts to 90pts, and I can say from running two squads with exactly that loadout in Serpents for a lot of 8e, they are a solid little troops choice that synergise very nicely with expert crafters.

So here it is, the building block I'm going to be running in all my test games for the next month:

Wave Serpent w/Spirit Stones & Starcannons
11 Storm guadians w/ 2 fusion guns
= 269pts for some nice durability, AT and obsec.

Do you have the book to confirm that about fusions? I'm working off the leaks, which list 0 (Fire Dragons) 10 (other models).

I would be extremely pleased to be wrong on this one.

the_scotsman wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Aye, there's the rub.

Our troops are just so squishy!

But I have some really great news! I'm not sure it will continue like this into our codex, but for now, at the opening of the 9e meta, currently fusion guns are zero points.

This is very big news for Storm Guardians, as they can take two FREE fusion guns per squad now. That means 10 storm guardians w/fusions has actually gone down in points from 100pts to 90pts, and I can say from running two squads with exactly that loadout in Serpents for a lot of 8e, they are a solid little troops choice that synergise very nicely with expert crafters.

So here it is, the building block I'm going to be running in all my test games for the next month:

Wave Serpent w/Spirit Stones & Starcannons
11 Storm guadians w/ 2 fusion guns
= 269pts for some nice durability, AT and obsec.

Do you have the book to confirm that about fusions? I'm working off the leaks, which list 0 (Fire Dragons) 10 (other models).

I would be extremely pleased to be wrong on this one.

The CA and the 40K App have Fusion Guns listed as 0 Pts for Fire Dragons and 10 Pts for Storm Guardians.

Oh dammmn

Early battlescribe mistake then. Gutted.

Don't trust BS. Once you have made list verify points with CA. Or go through file with toothcomb before making any lists

Well for a brief moment there I had some hope for an efficient troop option :/

I still think avengers are decent if used right. Their fire power is good and their durability is ok, with asurman it's not too bad at all. Not death guard good obviously but the best we've got.
They could work ok with masters of concealment without transports in a heavy armour mechdar list designed to hose down as much of the enemy turns one and two. As long as you can get them out of line of sight a 3+ is strong enough against most ignore line of sight shooting. I'm starting to go with a crafters/concealment list with three squads in falcons. Not as tough as serpents but with a 2+ pretty durable and more dakka.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm thinking that concealment looks better than ignore cover since I believe objectives can't be on terrain features?
I figure that blasting stuff off objectives is key so ignore cover is less valuable, any thoughts?

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
2 Squads of Dark Reapers hidden in 2 Falcons with starcannon/SC on turn 1, pop them out at the beginning and lay waste to your opponents troops choices trying to move up and score ( goodbye Primaris models ) Falcons would provide fire support and move them if they need to later.

2 Squads of DA in waveserpents moving up to objectives to score, pop them out turn 2 and finish off any troops left alive after dark reapers and falcons hopefully fire for a second time on turn 2. Add whatever else you want to the list and psychic powers of course. Seems like a decent way to start 9th edition for these missions for a 2000 point list.

It appears that the units stand one turn (the enemy turn) in the fire before they can score in the cmd phase.
For our squishy units this is not really good news.

That is certainly a bummer. What can we do to make sure our troops score besides Psychic protection and cover?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im thinking the only way for Eldar to win is to remove the chance of the opponent scoring, and then doing everything we can to swoop in and score ourselves.

What about simply giving up on bringing our terrible Obsec troops and focusing on fast and tough units that can contest and wipe other troops off to deny points? Not many troops in the game survive a blob of 9 buffed Spears shooting and fighting, after all.

 grouchoben wrote:
What about simply giving up on bringing our terrible Obsec troops and focusing on fast and tough units that can contest and wipe other troops off to deny points? Not many troops in the game survive a blob of 9 buffed Spears shooting and fighting, after all.

I think at least a battalion's worth of troops is pretty important to help with the mid to late game objective push. Without soup three or four squads of avengers do that whilst still having ok firepower. That still leaves a lot of points for the more killy stuff.