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 Argive wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm not sure what you're going with in regards to the DA and WotP. A 5 man DA sqd is so easy to remove, there is no unit left for you to be able to return a model. It can't just resurrect the exarch by itslef, there has to be a unit left and that won't happen.

A 5 man unit is also fairly easy to hide behind some 5" terrain.

Also, running 3 units of DA is not the overarching play of the list. The plan is to hide them until later turns to cap backfield objectives by which point there hopefully wont be enough firepower to remove them.

I think his point was more that, in that kind of list, there's no point to word of the phoenix. One of the other powers would be more useful.

Like what? You will always be smiting and gaze of ynnead anyway. Word of the phoenix is the next thing after that an nice to have in your back pocket but cserainly not something you base your game strategy around 15 dire avengers.

 Argive wrote:
Like what? You will always be smiting and gaze of ynnead anyway. Word of the phoenix is the next thing after that an nice to have in your back pocket but cserainly not something you base your game strategy around 15 dire avengers.

Shield, giving all those avengers a 5++, might be more useful. Unbind souls against a unit you need dead (in an army that should be focusing on melee fighting anyway) isn't a terrible idea either. WotP will only bring one avenger back to life, which isn't nothing, but the 5++ possibly works out better depending on what is attacking you.

But you're right, you're likely smiting and gazing anyway, so it's not like it matters much.

Niiru wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Like what? You will always be smiting and gaze of ynnead anyway. Word of the phoenix is the next thing after that an nice to have in your back pocket but cserainly not something you base your game strategy around 15 dire avengers.

Shield, giving all those avengers a 5++, might be more useful. Unbind souls against a unit you need dead (in an army that should be focusing on melee fighting anyway) isn't a terrible idea either. WotP will only bring one avenger back to life, which isn't nothing, but the 5++ possibly works out better depending on what is attacking you.

But you're right, you're likely smiting and gazing anyway, so it's not like it matters much.

Ive played with 3x8 storm guardians previously and to be honest when I took the shield power I rarely ended up using it. WOTP seems much more useful.

Battle fortune gives the exarch a 2W body with 4++ anyway and just for 5pts per unit you can give them shimemrshields but again I think battle fortune to tank plus a cheeky revive in the back pocket seems like the better play.

The only point of taking ynnari is to have wraithseers with lost shroud, lord of rebirth (also I like mirror gaze as additional relic).
I think potentially banshees would work well but every other unit just benefits far more from CWE traits and buffs more than ynnari.

Sadly running 48pt squads of stormies isint an option anymore.

I need to actually sit down and read the rules properly.
I wasn't even aware that you cant get refunded for a spearhead if your warlolrd is in it. I assumed it was any detachment.

Question on the Wraithseer -

I have two different builds (the two standard ones you see):

Ynnari Wraithseer with relic - All damage halved, 5++/5+++. With or without the D-Cannon, its pretty decent and hard to kill.

Sniper Wraithseer - D-Cannon, Mark of the Hunter, able to snipe characters. More fragile (but still a 5++).



I'm wondering what the thoughts are at the moment on these guys. I have two lists I'm trying to decide between, and the final decision depends on which Wraithseer detachment I take.

Either it's a Ynnari detachment with Yvraine, Wraithseer, and some Wraithblades, with Yvraine healing the wraithblades and throwing out smites and the Wraithseer being a beatstick soaking up hits.

OR its a craftworld detachment, with a farseer and wraithblades and rangers. Rangers and wraithseer acting as a backfield sniper unit, and the farseer and wraithblades can sit on something midfield.

Ynnari feels a little bit like a tax though... but it depends on how much better that wraithseer actually is.

As mentioned on your army list thread, I think hands down Ynanri for wraith seer.

I always run 2 wraith seers - One with lost shroud

One with Lord of rebirth and Mirrorgaze

The CWE snipy option might be useful now with EC and the fact he no longer gets -1 for moving. That was a big one why I ceased to go with that build. Might be worth revisit

Still id probably just run him with a single star cannon. 2x -3 D3 dmg shots with rerolls are usuly enough to drop a low tier character. Its unlikely you will be in range/ kill anything with a decent invuln (like a sm captain) in one round of shooting even with a d-cannon. Having rangers as back up can work but again I always struggled to bring all that dakka against same target due to deployment/terrain. Therefore I dont think its viable build.

I tried it with Illic night spear and a reaper launcher Autarch + 3 x5 ranger squads but still struggled to kill stuff reliably to make it a viable strategy. Certainly not for any semi competitive environment. But if you juts playing random games its probably going to be good fun.

 Argive wrote:
As mentioned on your army list thread, I think hands down Ynanri for wraith seer.

I always run 2 wraith seers - One with lost shroud

One with Lord of rebirth and Mirrorgaze

The CWE snipy option might be useful now with EC and the fact he no longer gets -1 for moving. That was a big one why I ceased to go with that build. Might be worth revisit

Still id probably just run him with a single star cannon. 2x -3 D3 dmg shots with rerolls are usuly enough to drop a low tier character. Its unlikely you will be in range/ kill anything with a decent invuln (like a sm captain) in one round of shooting even with a d-cannon. Having rangers as back up can work but again I always struggled to bring all that dakka against same target due to deployment/terrain. Therefore I dont think its viable build.

I tried it with Illic night spear and a reaper launcher Autarch + 3 x5 ranger squads but still struggled to kill stuff reliably to make it a viable strategy. Certainly not for any semi competitive environment. But if you juts playing random games its probably going to be good fun.

Very good points all round. In theory I thought the snipers (especially with the crusade buff of doing mortals on 5+ instead of 6+) would be a decent pick compared to the alternatives (none of the craftworld troops really did much for this list anyway).

I'm pretty much sold on moving the Wraithseer back to Ynnari. I'm actually tempted to swap Yvraine for a Yncarne as well, which might be a bad idea but... I dunno, just sounds funny. I would prefer the craftworlds avatar for the model, but I think Yncarne is better (and fulfills my ynnari hq tax as well).

Shimmershield seems fairly useless on DA since the kind of weapons that will be shooting at that will either be ap 0 or -1 and will usually be of an intense high RoF. So far, my DA have all been shot at by things like Wyverns, ABR's, twin-linked Devourers etc where a Shimmershield would just be wasted points.

You're better off keeping them super cheap or maximizing damage output as much as possible. If your opponent is deciding to shoot mass plasma at your DA then you're probably in a good position anyway.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Shimmershield seems fairly useless on DA since the kind of weapons that will be shooting at that will either be ap 0 or -1 and will usually be of an intense high RoF. So far, my DA have all been shot at by things like Wyverns, ABR's, twin-linked Devourers etc where a Shimmershield would just be wasted points.

You're better off keeping them super cheap or maximizing damage output as much as possible. If your opponent is deciding to shoot mass plasma at your DA then you're probably in a good position anyway.

This is the general approach to using DA in practice.
Keep them as cheap as possible and keep them safe as much as possible (mine are usually transported in Serpents).
If the enemy wastes high strength shots on them, he/she already has made something wrong. Good for your army.

I'm thinking of 10 man guardians in Wave serpents as they're cheaper wounds per points and celestial shield makes them kind of sturdy in a pinch. Now, am i right assuming that a unit with a weapons platform can't enter a serpent? The platform doesn't have the infantry keyword as far as i can tell...

The platform has the infantry keyword. The Guardian Defender entry has a set of keywords for the heavy weapon platform (p93). The platform can be placed in a Wave Serpent.

Must have sat on my eyes, thanks.

grouchoben wrote:I think 6 MSU DA is a pretty nice pick too, but I'm unsure that meets the threshold for bothering with Asurmen @160pts frankly. I think I'd rather keep with the 4++ Exarch power at that point and take more haywire, seeing how MSU avengers will be pretty spread out anyway... In fact that looks like quite a nice list for the Yncarne to do her thing in...

I believe all that discussion about Nick (didn't watch the game) was 10-man DAs since he was hoping to lose 1 to maximise shots back. 5-man DAs are better with Bladestorm.

Is the Yncarne a good option right now? I've been debating making her my next paint project (slow hobby painter) and I also usually do Aspects.

ClockworkZion wrote:

I feel a single Guardian blob for holding a backfield objective (horde it up to 20 models, raise the banners and take some high RoF weapon platforms for Overwatch is basically my plan) since we can easily toss a 4++ on it and leave it unsupported compared to much of the rest of the army.

Hmmm thanks for the point.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Striking Scorpions and Rangers are a bit higher on my list, Rangers can grab an objective turn 1 and Scorpions can pop up mid to late game to bull a chaffe unit off a backfield objective to claim some points (or just deny some).

Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders both have nice deep strike options and can do some decent work in shooting as well, which could help hit the enemy in places they less expect it and allow us to take objectives, or just drop into table quarters and hold ground for VP.

Are you thinking 1x5 Rangers or more?

Think 2 x 5 of each SW, WSs would be a not un-wise option to try? I'm a fan of aspects so trying to make what I own work (casual competative).

The Yncarne is one of the saving graces of 9e for us - she only went up 10pts but is vastly improved.

I've been running her in nearly every Eldar list for the past 6 months, and really, I think she might be the best unit we have now.

The two big buffs she received are: the general objective-centred nature of 9e where units must stand and fight in pockets across the board, in order to score at the top of the turn; and heroic intervention is now back on the menu, meaning she can appear on the death of a unit, within 3" of an enemy unit, and intervene into them in your opponent's turn. That's an unprecendented amount of movement and threat!

Even factoring out the definite element of 'gotcha' she represents to an opponent who isn't experienced against a well-piloted Yncarne, she still poses threats to objectives across the board, and if you can keep the unit alive until the final turns of the game, she dominates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finally, she pairs well with msu (higher opportunity to teleport), fast moving units that disperse across the board (like bikes and transports) and a dispersed mechdar list (like 3 walkers, 3 vypers). As luck would have it, these are very common elements in CWE lists right now.

 grouchoben wrote:
The Yncarne is one of the saving graces of 9e for us - she only went up 10pts but is vastly improved.

I've been running her in nearly every Eldar list for the past 6 months, and really, I think she might be the best unit we have now.

The two big buffs she received are: the general objective-centred nature of 9e where units must stand and fight in pockets across the board, in order to score at the top of the turn; and heroic intervention is now back on the menu, meaning she can appear on the death of a unit, within 3" of an enemy unit, and intervene into them in your opponent's turn. That's an unprecendented amount of movement and threat!

Even factoring out the definite element of 'gotcha' she represents to an opponent who isn't experienced against a well-piloted Yncarne, she still poses threats to objectives across the board, and if you can keep the unit alive until the final turns of the game, she dominates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finally, she pairs well with msu (higher opportunity to teleport), fast moving units that disperse across the board (like bikes and transports) and a dispersed mechdar list (like 3 walkers, 3 vypers). As luck would have it, these are very common elements in CWE lists right now.

Oh man that is an amazing explanation thank kindly! Glad i primed her yesterday

Do I add her with a Supreme Detachment?

You can drop her in to any Aeldari detachment as an HQ, but it does normally block the use of special characters like the Solitaire or Drazhar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finally, one of the most satisfying things about the unit is how high the ceiling is, and how low the floor is, when piloting her. The Yncarne needs lots of practice, you have to learn when to commit, when to hide, what her best targets are, and what your priorities are. She plays a bit like the queen in chess - outrageously aggressive, best movement in the game, your opponent has to bear her in mind at all times, and when you suddenly lose her (probably through over-commiting her) you feel like the game has grown a little dimmer and mundane in how it plays ...

PS here's my Yncarne!

I've always wanted to try out the yncarne but she's always looked like a big investment points wise. Plus she looks like she's easy to play wrong and waste her potential by getting her in a bad position and losing her cheaply. Maybe I'll try her out on TTS. Are there any good tutorials for her on YouTube?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
PS here's my Yncarne!

Beautiful paint job, well done!

 grouchoben wrote:
PS here's my Yncarne!

That is an awesome Yncarne. Definitely one of my favorite models to play. Her ability gives her so much presence, really changes up the feel of the game. She's not the easiest model to play, but she can do crazy stuff and she hits like a truck. IMO she's one of the fluffiest datasheets and she perfectly captures the eldar playstyle.

 grouchoben wrote:

2x5xDAs and a serpent with star cannons cost about 314pts.

Are Starcannons the way to go now? Expert Crafters?

Can't be sure dude, but they've been amazing for a while now, and just got a lot better through no minus to hit when moving, and considering the meta will be Nurgle, Marines and Custodes, they're in the sweetspot.

As for EC, yeah it's still top dog. Most lists will be EC+your personal flavour.

 grouchoben wrote:
The Yncarne is one of the saving graces of 9e for us - she only went up 10pts but is vastly improved.

I've been running her in nearly every Eldar list for the past 6 months, and really, I think she might be the best unit we have now.

The two big buffs she received are: the general objective-centred nature of 9e where units must stand and fight in pockets across the board, in order to score at the top of the turn; and heroic intervention is now back on the menu, meaning she can appear on the death of a unit, within 3" of an enemy unit, and intervene into them in your opponent's turn. That's an unprecendented amount of movement and threat!

Even factoring out the definite element of 'gotcha' she represents to an opponent who isn't experienced against a well-piloted Yncarne, she still poses threats to objectives across the board, and if you can keep the unit alive until the final turns of the game, she dominates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finally, she pairs well with msu (higher opportunity to teleport), fast moving units that disperse across the board (like bikes and transports) and a dispersed mechdar list (like 3 walkers, 3 vypers). As luck would have it, these are very common elements in CWE lists right now.

Excellent breakdown sir.
Also that paint job is gorgeous.

How does it work with the restriction rules? Can it come on t1 if something dies? Also rangers and scorpions. Ive been reading the brb but i can figure out what falls under the restriction. We have things like webway strike etc.

Hey thanks Argive. I always start the unit on the table T1, so to be honest I have no idea I'm afraid. But yes, as it stands, she can start hopping all over the board from T1 – although often that's a shady prospect!

 grouchoben wrote:
Hey thanks Argive. I always start the unit on the table T1, so to be honest I have no idea I'm afraid. But yes, as it stands, she can start hopping all over the board from T1 – although often that's a shady prospect!

Yeah I was thinking of switching to the yncarne instead of yvraine towards the end of 8th for my wraithseer detatchement. It would be awesome if he becomes a supreme commander.

Whats the current ruling on abiltiies like warp spiders/ striking scorpions and webway strike strat. Are these still restricted to T2? There's the new keywords but some units seem not to have that.
I dont have the newest CA so not sure if this is explained.

I played mission 1, Strike Force, 2000 points today against a Blood Angel dreadnought heavy list. Overall, I won based on the primary objectives. I'm still having issues with secondaries. Engage on All Fronts is my go to and can get ok points. I need to review Raise the Flag, as I earned very few points (maybe played it incorrectly). I took one of the psychic action ones, but never even tried it, earning 0 points.

I did try two separate custom Craftworld detachments. Savage Blades and Hunters of Ancient Relics worked fantastically with Wraithblades, and Avatar, and Shining Spears. I also had a Wraithseer in that detachment, but was very underwhelmed.

Shifting my army from a lot of shooting to a mix of assault and shooting felt more workable as the fight is really at the objectives. Spears with the +1 charge and Avatar for the reroll is quite useful. The Avatar actually is quite a brute in assault. I may try out making him the Warlord and having the deny overwatch Warlord Trait. His fearless bubble helps all friendly Asuryani, so different Craftworld traits in different detachments are not a hindrance.

Lessons learned: play for primary objectives, Seer Council stratagem is still very useful, assault capability is quite necessary, and I still suck with secondaries.

 Sarigar wrote:
I played mission 1, Strike Force, 2000 points today against a Blood Angel dreadnought heavy list. Overall, I won based on the primary objectives. I'm still having issues with secondaries. Engage on All Fronts is my go to and can get ok points. I need to review Raise the Flag, as I earned very few points (maybe played it incorrectly). I took one of the psychic action ones, but never even tried it, earning 0 points.

I did try two separate custom Craftworld detachments. Savage Blades and Hunters of Ancient Relics worked fantastically with Wraithblades, and Avatar, and Shining Spears. I also had a Wraithseer in that detachment, but was very underwhelmed.

Shifting my army from a lot of shooting to a mix of assault and shooting felt more workable as the fight is really at the objectives. Spears with the +1 charge and Avatar for the reroll is quite useful. The Avatar actually is quite a brute in assault. I may try out making him the Warlord and having the deny overwatch Warlord Trait. His fearless bubble helps all friendly Asuryani, so different Craftworld traits in different detachments are not a hindrance.

Lessons learned: play for primary objectives, Seer Council stratagem is still very useful, assault capability is quite necessary, and I still suck with secondaries.

Wouldn't he be better off with seer of shifting vector or an extra wound?
Overwatch seems like such a novelty

I've always liked the +2 movement for the avatar, makes him decently mobile.

 kingheff wrote:
I've always liked the +2 movement for the avatar, makes him decently mobile.

Me too! And with the plethora of CP we can now have, it's more feasible to repeatedly trigger the 3cp avatar resurgent strat. I used to run him a lot with storm guardian blobs, haven't given him a spin in 9e yet.

So I’m flipping through the Corsair rules in the 9th errata, and it seems like maybe they got a little better with 9th?

With a 2000 point game giving out 12 command points, you could, in theory, have a Corsair detachment and the only thing you’re missing out on is the command points from that detachment, which doesn’t seem like such a big deal to me. Am I missing something else?

I’d be tempted to run:
1x Dark Eldar or Craftworlds patrol detachment (No loss of CP because of warlord)
1x Corsair Battalion detachment (-3 command points)

At 2000 points I’m still left with 9 command points to spend during the game.

In a perfect world I could run a pure Corsair army with a Corsair warlord, but at least Corsairs aren’t a downright hindrance anymore, right?

I suspect they are going to legends to be honest. They don't have any HQ choices and I'm pretty sure they stopped you using the ynarri characters instead.
So unless I'm missing something I think you can only take them in auxillary detachments I'm afraid.