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Leo_the_Rat wrote: General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.
The lord can definitely work as a distraction/move blocker but I find the best way is to give him shuriken cannon/s and advance him then fire and fade giving him a 15+d6 inch movement which should really get him up in your opponent's face for 110 PTS and 1cp.
That's a really interesting variation on what I was thinking. Do you think it would be worth it for the Wraithlord to have 2 cannons (120 pts) and use a 2nd CP to guarantee him a "6" on the advance (thereby giving him a 22" move and shooting)?
I was originally just thinking that I would throw him up front into my opponents face and use him as cover for the rest of my army while they deal with him in their lines.
I think the second cannon is usually worth it personally.
The second cp will usually be game specific, if you just want to throw him up field it's enough to just have him fire and fade, if you really need to move between some terrain to block off your opponent's movement and only a 4+" advance will do it then the guaranteed 6" advance is definitely worth a cp.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 15:40:05
Leo_the_Rat wrote: General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.
The lord can definitely work as a distraction/move blocker but I find the best way is to give him shuriken cannon/s and advance him then fire and fade giving him a 15+d6 inch movement which should really get him up in your opponent's face for 110 PTS and 1cp.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Sarigar wrote: After taking several losses over the past couple of months trying to make a Craftworld/Harlequin army that did not give up Bring Them Down points, I went back to a mechanized Craftworld list for a one day tourney. All three games were against Marines; Dark Angels, Dark Angels, Ravenguard. I went back to a mechanized list as I was more comfortable rules wise, it is quicker for me to play, and I banked on Space Marines being the most common army (which turned out to be true).
A few key lessons I learned.
-Be patient and try not to over extend the army. If I felt I would over expose a unit just to get Engage on All Fronts on turn 1, I simply didn't get the points. My turn one movement was a bit more conservative, even with two fliers. Out of all three games, I lost a total of 5 tanks and 0 fliers. In the later rounds, after eliminating key threats, I would be able to push out earning the points.
- I would generally only hold two objectives. My focus would be to remove my opponent from enough objectives so he would not hold more than me. In the early rounds, this proved difficult as Marines have fantastic board presence. However, I could make up the deficit in later rounds.
- A unit of 3 Hornets and Forewarning removes Eliminators. This ability creates significant challenges for opponents as I would get the opportunity to position this unit in such a way to maximize LOS. If they wanted to threaten my army, they would end up getting shot by 18 Hornet Pulse Lasers first (with Guide).
- Deploy Scramblers is an auto take. 3x5 Dire Avengers finally have utility for me. 2x5 start in Webway Strike and 1x5 started in a Wave Serpent. Turn 1, DA get out of Wave Serpent and Deploy Scramblers. Turns 2 and 3 each have a DA squad drop down and Deploy Scramblers. I earned max points every fame. I will experiment with Strategic Reserve and see if I get as much utility as Webway Strike. It will save me 2 CP.
-While We Stand, We Fight worked well. This is very matchup dependent. If I feel my opponentdoes not have enough shooting, I took this and gained max points out of the two games I chose this secondary.
In the end, I went 2-1 and took 5th out of 20. I lost to balanced Dark Angel army whom I had trouble removing from objectives. Azreal combined with judicious use of Transhuman Physiology proved quite difficult to eliminate key units.
The list was a lot of high AP shooting.
Farseer
2 Warlock Conclave (use for long range Jinx)
3 x 5 Dire Avengers
3 Hornets (one unit)
3 Wave Serpents
2 Falcons
2 Crimson Hunter Exarch.
Starcannons, Pulse Lasers, Hornet Pulse Lasers with Expert Crafters worked well. However, this list will still suffer against a horde type army.
I honestly don't know if you can make a good craftworlds list without giving up bring it down, I can't anyway. But it's ironic that craftworlds are basically the worst army in 40k but we actually match up pretty well against marines!
I don't think we are the wrose army by a long shot.
We are certaily dated! lol.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I really tried to get away from mechanized lists, but ended up coming back to it. Marines locally are popular (again). The list did seem to match up well. I'm going to play more games and see where I can shore up weaknesses. Hopefully, we will see a new codex in early 2021.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
According to 40k stats.com craftworlds have the lowest win rate of any army with enough games to get a realistic picture of how they perform. This is based off competitive play so isn't necessarily representative of a more casual game. I think it's probably skewed by some competitive players moving away to, say, Harlequins leaving the die hard eldar players who may not be quite so competitively focused.
kingheff wrote: According to 40k stats.com craftworlds have the lowest win rate of any army with enough games to get a realistic picture of how they perform. This is based off competitive play so isn't necessarily representative of a more casual game. I think it's probably skewed by some competitive players moving away to, say, Harlequins leaving the die hard eldar players who may not be quite so competitively focused.
Pete (of 40k Stats) also said Craftworlds are the broken codex of 9th ed right now. As in they need fixing, not OP.
I think it's a pretty accurate statement unfortunately, a combination of power creep and the changes to modifiers have made our forces too fragile. Offensively I think we're still ok, although our melee lacks volume of attacks, but defensively we just can't take what armies like sisters, ad mech and marines put out.
I've been having decent success with my pretty tough/high quantity of wounds approach but pick up games on TTS are different beast from top table competitive games.
I have been playing against Salamanders mostly.
It has truly been a disheartening experience to see waveserpents rendered, almost useless in the face of double tapping meltaguns.
I've also been giving up max bring it down points every game, and not being able to find a good 3rd secondary to combine with engage on all fronts and deploy scramblers.
But rejoice, for I have found some tricks.
I cut all of my wave serpents. All 3. It's sad, I know. My reapers and dire avengers walk now.
But what that has enabled is the secondary objective: While We Stand We Fight.
The 3 highest point models I have chosen are 2 Farseer Skyrunners, and a Wraithlord I put into strategic reserves. While the wraithlord is typically quite fragile against many of today's weapons, by hiding him until the endgame I can ensure that the main threats are removed and he can come in and hold down an objective/table quarter without too much resistance usually.
Anything that can turn a fair fight into a game of keep away, at least helps..
Yeah, finding it hard to justify wave serpents these days. Minus one damage against meltas just doesn't cut it really, I think going for cheaper more offensively focused units is the way.
I think salamanders took a bit of a hit with the change to their re-rolls but they still look strong.
Sounds like you're approaching the game correctly and trying to find solutions.
I've been running a 10-blob of axewraiths recently, deployed on the line, and using phantasm to refuse flank if I don't get first turn.
It's working, they are a serious challenge to remove when powered up, and with 10 in the unit they can often trigger Hunters +1A. Second triat used to be Wrath of the dead, obviously, but I've found Headstrong to be the best pick recently. It plays better with other units (massive for deepstrikers and stacks beautifully on the Banshees' +3") and I find the big blob is pretty lethal already, and half its job is taking up space and holding the line, both of whice often depend on making those crucial charges to help mitigate their terrible movement. Stack ghostwalk on them and they become very reliable chargers.
My mistake previously was being wedded to 5 in a Serpent. Screw that, Serpents are meltafodder these days. Also 5 don't do enough damage, and 2x5 split your buffs awfully.
I’ve been having good success against some local Space Marine players using a list concept I got from the Splintermind podcast. The core is a squad of three Hornets with pulse lasers with Guide from the Farseer, two Warp Hunters, and a squad of three War Walkers with double star cannons. I run EC and MoC as my custom Craftworld traits (surprise, surprise). My HQs are a Farseer on bike with Doom and Guide, and Autarch on bike. I take 3 x 5 DA and one squad of Striking Scorpions which can all start in reserve/deepstrike to get Deploy Scramblers and Engage. And I usually round it out with two CHEs with star cannons. Forewarned on the guided Hornets is great for killing or severely crippling Eradicators or plasma Inceptors that arrive from reserve. It does give up Bring it Down but it has blistering offense. I’ve been behind every game so far on turns 2-3 but make it up on turns 4-5 by basically tabling my opponents. It’s probably not going to win any tournaments but it is ridiculously efficient at killing Primaris and Gravis marine bodies.
Hornets have done really well out of 9th.
I wonder what the new FW book going to bring to the table. My wraithseers and shadow specters are anxiously awaiting their next outing
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: Hornets have done really well out of 9th.
I wonder what the new FW book going to bring to the table. My wraithseers and shadow specters are anxiously awaiting their next outing
I'm curious about the Hornet. I've been using a squadron of three and they have been the best unit in my army.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
How do they survive? A unit of 3 is 360pts with T6 and no invuln, and scream 'kill me, I am a Guide alpha unit'. They're not easy to hide, as their combined footprint is significant. What gives?
6-7 other vehicles, 48" range shooting, Fortune , -1 to be hit if you opt to Advance, Fire and Fade. Comninations of these become a significant deterrent in my games.
My last tourney a couple weeks back and I lost a total of two Hornets over the course of three games.
Advancing is interesting now with terrain interactions. If you identify a target that will already be at a -1 to hit, go ahead and Advance move (with the CTM).
Although the new FW book is nearly upon us, things could change.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Masters of Concealment for 2+ save if attacker is outside of 12 inches. Spirit Stone for 6+++. -1 to hit through advancing or LFR. Fire and Fading. They also have a very low profile and if using the proper amount of terrain in 9th, it’s not too difficult to hide them. If you can’t hide at least 1-2 key units behind obscuring terrain, you don’t have enough terrain on the board. Plus threat saturation with Star Cannon toting War Walker, Vypers,CHE, Spears, etc. I’ve found them to be more resilient than one might think.
I would also argue that they're not a prime guide target at all. The safest way to run them is in single-hornet units, and run them as expert crafters so each hornet rerolls a hit and wound every time they fire.
Much easier to hide the unit, as a single one poking from cover doesn't mean the whole unit gets wiped by eradicators. And eradicators will overkill one and waste a bunch of shots.
I honestly can't think of a time when grouping them into a big unit is a benefit. Sure you gain stratagem ability, and you can cast spells on them, but they don't really gain a whole lot from it compared to just leaving them with expert crafters and calling it a day. Frees up guide and strats for other units.
"I honestly can't think of a time when grouping them into a big unit is a benefit."
- I think I see the logic of it: Guide, Fortune, Fire & Fade, Cloud Strike if terrain is no good, Feigned Retreat, Lightning fast reactions if you didn't advance, and a withering Forewarned volley.
But I think about cover and I'm doubting whether they can be hidden effectively turn one. As you say, if a squad of eliminators (or even worse retributors) can draw LoS to just one of them, it's goodnight to 360pts pretty trivially.
I run them in a unit of three. Forewarning plays a big part of it. Eradicators were popular in my last event. Deathwing was another popular unit. A lot came down to forcing my opponent to come down and get shot or set up in such a way or risk not being able to utilize the unit(s).
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Irillyth - 140pts,
4++, still -1 to hit, -1 to Enemy LD when within 6', Deep Strike, Shadow Spectres reroll 1's within 6'
24'' Assault 3, -4, 3 Damage, S5, -3 2 Damage in Melee
Shadow Spectres - 26pts, 5-10 models in Squad, still -1 to hit
Prism Rifle - Dispersed Assault D6, 18’, S5, -1, 1 Damage Blast
Focused - Assault 1, 24’, S3, -3, 3 Damage
Hornets - 80pts, -1 hit base, Starcannons 5pts, Bright Lance & Aeldari Missile Launcher 10pts
Heavy weapons reduced for Hornets
Hornet Pulse Laser - Lost -1AP, 36’, S7, Same damage? 5pts
Warp Hunter - 195pts
S12, D3+3 Damage in Artillery Mode, 24’’, AP4, Blast, D3 Shots Lost 12 in Artillery Mode
Flamer Mode - 12’, Flat Heavy 3, S12, AP4, D6 Damage, Auto Hit
Wraithseer - Doesn’t mention points level
9W, Access to Runes of Battle, Cast 1 Power per turn, Lost Character rule, 5++, doesn’t profile degrade, Heavy Support choice.
Eldritch Wraith Construct - Enemy ranged AP1, is changed to AP0
Ghost Spear - S10, AP3, D3+3 Damage
Nightwing - 220pts
BS3, T6, 14W, Can go into Hover, wings extend, loses airborne, hard to hit, agile interceptor, 5++, +1 to other enemy aircraft units
Skathach - 325pts
55pts per Deathshroud Cannon, 65pts Inferno Lance, can mix and match the Scattershield
Inferno Lance - 24’, S8, AP4, D6 Damage, within half range D6+2 Damage
Still has the Webway Shunt
Revenant - 1500pts, Distortion Field 4++ against ranged attacks
Sonic Lance -18’, Heavy 3D6, S4, AP3, auto hits, wounds Infantry on 2+
Pulse Laser - Revenant Pulsar, Heavy 6, 60’, S12, AP4, Damage 4
Cloudburst Missile Launcher - 36’, Heavy 2D6, S8, AP2, 2 Damage Blast
Automatically Appended Next Post: The points decrease for the Hornet Pulse Laser really stood out for the army I play. I need to see how much difference S6 vs S7 will be, but I'm fairly happy with the change.
The Wraithseer appears fairly gutted. Moving to HS and losing the Character keyword will surely reduce how often I use one.
Not sure about Shadow Spectres and their Phoenix Lord. May be a typo on the weapon strength (S3?).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/31 11:21:57
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Thanks Sarigar! Some really interesting changes I have to say, and a lot of good ones.
The Lynx looks interesting now, I didn't expect that at all. Great model. 220pts is a 150pt haircut, and its gun is hugely improved too: 48’, Heavy 6, S9, AP3, Damage 3 is a great profile for 9e.
If it keeps its other rules, it can declare lumbering flyer and move out of CC and still shoot which is great.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/31 12:05:38
1st typo i saw hornets are equipped with Shuriken cannons base then in wargear part it says you can swap the hornet pulse lasers for heavy weapons.....
Also Shadow Spectres got a hefty boost in weapon range 18" and 24" for flamer and prism, but prism it's just assault 1 now (still S6 at least)
The Lynx it's just a gravtank with autoadvance 12" but lost Sonic lance option.
And yes Wraithseer lost the character status.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/31 12:54:56
Having access to runes of battle + smite + runes of fortune (?)(great use of witchstrike power) and not being HQ is great. It's lost relatively little and gained so so much.
HQ is probably the most congested slot and heavy support is congested too but much easier to get slots by taking something like a Spearhead
~500pts Asuryani painted new colour scheme
~7500pts Asuryani assembled some with old colour scheme
The revenant is down to 1500pts if anyone's feeling masochistic enough to try and build an effective army from 500pts?
The Hornet is the winner for CWE by some distance. Gun gains +1S, but loses a shot. Chassis gains -1 to hit baked in, and with hornet pulse lasers it now costs 90pts.
Priced to move, I can see three of these becoming a staple akin to warwalkers.
Liking the Scorpion now. 5++ is a great buff. Flat 12 shots is great too, allowing it to target either a big single target or things like bike and elite infantry squads equally well. A 200 point price cut isn't bad either!
Hornets get a 5 point cut and a native -1 to hit so still nice.
Wraithseers look an interesting, but pricey, alternative to wraithlords, tougher but less firepower and smite.
Looking at the video I'd say the focused beam of the shadow spectres is S6 -3 3 damage, so amazing anti infantry power at 24" range. That's great anti marine firepower. Squad size now 5-10 rather than 3-10, oddly. Spectres also staying at 1W suggests that Aspects are not getting a profile change.
I love the Scorpion, but I think it took a bit of a hit too. Looks like 5++ is only against shooting, and it lost Airborne on/off too. It can no longer access 4++ with CTM & VE ... so while the points dropped, so did its survivability.
Wraithseers look great to me. ... 1d3+3 is top tier damage, and with expert crafters is very reliable. On the way in the chap can jinx and such now, as well as smite. It will take smart play, but it's just the kind of unit that will fit well into the last bastion of CWE, expert crafter mech lists.
Wraithseer loosing acess to relics and traits sucks big time to me. Plus loss of 4 wounds... The -1 Ap is pretty pointless hes going to be shot at with AT (new fancy meltas...) is going to be ap -3 or better. Not sure if the smite/ runes of battle is worth the trade. Also D-cannon weaponry going to at least 4 damage is interesting. I wonder if they will FAQ weapon platforms to the new damage profile. Coz that would make them very interetsing.
The specters... Interesting. But T3 1W 3+ is just soo pathetic. With modifier cap it is paper thin. The offensive boost is decent.. Very decent. I might take them over reapers now due to mobility and better AP. Irylyth looks very interesting and hes bit of a beatstick with 3x flat Str8 -4 3dmg BS 2 dakka. Shame about not getting a warlord trait.. meh...
It looks like GW is determined not to allow eldar more than 4 attacks.. So stupid. Looks we will keep battlefocus.
Anyone else notice the shadow specters exarch didn't get a power??
Maybe it's an indication that we getting nerfed or that we will get a pool of generic exarch powers.
The scatchah knight...So being eqipped with a knight level of weapon but has the same profile as a Ruddy retributor or Any average imperial Multi melta !? Could be argued worse as its D6 shots.. Scattershield is still 5++ and still takes up a weapon arm slot.. Looks like the wraithknights will be sitting out yet another edition. Such a shame.
Think hornets are the real winners.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are the spectres still elite? I cant tell.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/02 04:54:11
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Eldar- 4436 pts
(still S6 at least)
~500pts Asuryani painted new colour scheme
