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I remind folks that prior to their new codex Marines where one of those weak factions.

BrianDavion wrote:
I remind folks that prior to their new codex Marines where one of those weak factions.

And?

You're not owed some special period of dominance because of past weakness

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I remind folks that prior to their new codex Marines where one of those weak factions.

And?

You're not owed some special period of dominance because of past weakness

you're the one claiming they could have released new codices for weak factions instead of releasing stuff for Marines.

Indeed, too much books in the new edition, and the books (hardcover) are generally too expensive.
My hope was that GW would release less books than in the previous edition with all those supplements.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, too much books in the new edition, and the books (hardcover) are generally too expensive.
My hope was that GW would release less books than in the previous edition with all those supplements.

I'm torn. Clearly there are too many books, but on the other hand there is certainly a sea change in GW's approach to rules and this process gets people "caught up" without having to buy a codex with just 3 or 4 extra pages.

It made sense for marines, because they got a ton of models with the supplements.

Gordoape wrote:

Cheeslord wrote:
So, you are saying that people do not need to buy the books for the rules? Should they get the rules some other way, e.g. illegal copying of them? Group buying in clubs? Apologies for being stupid, but I must be missing something, for if this is a "silly charade" then the solution must be obvious.

Mark.

I mean... yes? You’re clearly playing dumb here. The rules are available by download, by sharing with others, or via apps like BattleScribe. The majority of players actually do use these resources rather than buying new books. I personally buy the books because I like reading the lore and looking at the pictures in paper. But if it was a financial hardship for me I would not.

Then of course if you rely on BS you will be stuck when somebody who's sensible enough to not trust bs printouts actually asks you to provide real rules to show rather than bs printout which is very easy to edit so you can actually be sure you are playing against the REAL rules and not some cheating made up rules.

If you disagree feel free to play my tesla immortals who have got special rule where on to wound of 5+ they get -3 AP dam2 profile Look! I have battlescribe print saying so! You just have missed the new book from gw!

When you are playing in a store, then you should be able to verify rules in question very easily with actual copies.

And if you are playing at home and somebody cheats with their printed out rules, then maybe you have a different problem.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
...remember back a few years ago, everyone here (many of the same people I might add complaining about the amount of rules now) where ASKING for a living ruleset?

I think when they asked for a "living ruleset" they were expecting something like how Infinity, X-Wing, and Warmachine give you all the rules and updates for free and use an easily-updated digital primary source for pushing rules updates, not GW demanding everyone buy a new paper book every year.

Well if that's what they were envisioning happening, then those people are _______ STUPID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

a_typical_hero wrote:
When you are playing in a store, then you should be able to verify rules in question very easily with actual copies.

I agree. But there's no reason to expect this to be at the stores expense.

a_typical_hero wrote:
And if you are playing at home and somebody cheats with their printed out rules, then maybe you have a different problem.

There's no maybe involved. You get caught cheating in our circles you get told to leave & you're not invited back. Problem solved

BrianDavion wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Gordoape wrote:
Let’s seriously stop pretending that people need to buy the books for the rules as an excuse to complain, that charade has gotten very silly.

Sssh

People with nothing to complain about need something to complain about.

But I totally agree. I never take all these books I'm apparently supposed to be taking

remember back a few years ago, everyone here (many of the same people I might add complaining about the amount of rules now) where ASKING for a living ruleset?

Probably the same people saying 40k favors specialist units but complain about Primaris

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I'm torn. Clearly there are too many books, but on the other hand there is certainly a sea change in GW's approach to rules and this process gets people "caught up" without having to buy a codex with just 3 or 4 extra pages.

It made sense for marines, because they got a ton of models with the supplements.

They "got a ton of models" with the codex release, not the supplements. They just dragged the model releases out to pad out the supplement release weeks.

If it hadn't been dragged out, you would have seen it was a model and an upgrade frame.

After this bizarre CA 2019, I've decided to never buy another GW book again. It's just insulting to the player base.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I'm torn. Clearly there are too many books, but on the other hand there is certainly a sea change in GW's approach to rules and this process gets people "caught up" without having to buy a codex with just 3 or 4 extra pages.

It made sense for marines, because they got a ton of models with the supplements.

They "got a ton of models" with the codex release, not the supplements. They just dragged the model releases out to pad out the supplement release weeks.

If it hadn't been dragged out, you would have seen it was a model and an upgrade frame.

I think maybe you're confusing my point?

The new marine models necessitate a new codex. The supplements were just the method that allowed them to expand upon the chapters without making the core book a behemoth.

Other codexes aren't getting models, so, refreshing those books would be forcing people to pay $40+ for 3 or 4 extra pages. With PA they get the same result, but with fluff and other potentially useful or fun additions. I'm not saying it's perfect, but this is the "silver lining" that I can pull from the situation.

The only book I've bought since the start of 8th has been Codex: Tyranids and I've gotten by fine.

123ply wrote:


They did release the mini rule book. But in typical GW fashion, it is completley un-FAQ'd and un-errata'd. Completley un updated despite being released pretty recently, years after the original rules were printed

The one they released alongside the AoS Gaming Book? OMG what were they thinking? The price alone makes it completely ridiculous - a much smaller than the core book(which is a very hefty tome) and only £5 difference. Can't see why it needed to be a hard neither and like you say its not even updated.

The AoS Gaming book seems a much better product.

I know people who only have battlescribe and the main rulebook. they do just fine. I get digital codexes and things like chapter approved so they fit nice and neatly on my tablet or laptop depending on which device I feel like bringing along. If you don't want ot buy books then don't buy books its not a requirement to play beyond really the rule book and even then its murky if you have other means to get the data.

 Vector Strike wrote:
After this bizarre CA 2019, I've decided to never buy another GW book again. It's just insulting to the player base.

What are you referring to that insults you? I don't understand your expression.

There are definitely too many books required to play. I used to be someone who bought all of the books, but there have been so many that I just stopped altogether. In fact, GW's release pace has been so fast that I just stopped buying anything. There's no time to absorb and enjoy a release before it's onto the next thing.

Let's look at Ultramarines for a moment. One needs all of the following to play them:
Core rulebook, rulebook FAQ, Codex Space Marines, SM's FAQ, Ultramarines supplement, Ultramarines FAQ, Vigilus Defiant, Vigilus FAQ, Chapter Approved 2019
That's nine (9) rules sources to play one army. It's absurd.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I think maybe you're confusing my point?

The new marine models necessitate a new codex.

Did it really though? We had the free rules PDF for the stuff. Those of us who bought Shadowspear had rules that way too.

If they truly are going to be updating the edition the way that there's currently rumors of, effectively doing an "8.5"? It doesn't hurt them at all to do their flagship army in advance of it--especially with additional models that were planned anyways. It also clears the way for them to do range updates that are considered necessary...which we seem to have gotten a preview of with the Blood of the Phoenix box.

The supplements were just the method that allowed them to expand upon the chapters without making the core book a behemoth.

Debatable. They really whiffed on actually 'expanding upon the chapters' barring the special-ish rules. Shrike didn't get any of his Talons, which is a huge missed opportunity for a non-Ultramarines Chapter Master to get an Honor Guard.

Other codexes aren't getting models, so, refreshing those books would be forcing people to pay $40+ for 3 or 4 extra pages. With PA they get the same result, but with fluff and other potentially useful or fun additions. I'm not saying it's perfect, but this is the "silver lining" that I can pull from the situation.

What "other codexes" anytime soon are getting refreshed besides Sisters of Battle?

I mean, we didn't get a new AdMech book despite their releases.
Skorpius Disintegrator/Dunerider--no book rules. The rules only come in the box.
Techpriest Manipulus? Same deal, his rules were in the Kill Team box he came in.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
...remember back a few years ago, everyone here (many of the same people I might add complaining about the amount of rules now) where ASKING for a living ruleset?

I think when they asked for a "living ruleset" they were expecting something like how Infinity, X-Wing, and Warmachine give you all the rules and updates for free and use an easily-updated digital primary source for pushing rules updates, not GW demanding everyone buy a new paper book every year.

GW doing positive things for their game is like a fething monkey’s paw...

“Oh you wanted a living ruleset?”
“Yeah. It’s nearly 2020 bro. Can we have an app?”
“Books it is!”

 oni wrote:
There are definitely too many books required to play. I used to be someone who bought all of the books, but there have been so many that I just stopped altogether. In fact, GW's release pace has been so fast that I just stopped buying anything. There's no time to absorb and enjoy a release before it's onto the next thing.

Let's look at Ultramarines for a moment. One needs all of the following to play them:
Core rulebook, rulebook FAQ, Codex Space Marines, SM's FAQ, Ultramarines supplement, Ultramarines FAQ, Vigilus Defiant, Vigilus FAQ, Chapter Approved 2019
That's nine (9) rules sources to play one army. It's absurd.

Of which, probably a third(unless you're constantly running Vigilus Specialist Detachments) aren't actually necessary for you to have in every single game, and one of them(CA2019) likely won't have any reason for you to bring as an Ultramarines player unless you're bringing Index units.

 oni wrote:
There are definitely too many books required to play. I used to be someone who bought all of the books, but there have been so many that I just stopped altogether. In fact, GW's release pace has been so fast that I just stopped buying anything. There's no time to absorb and enjoy a release before it's onto the next thing.

Let's look at Ultramarines for a moment. One needs all of the following to play them:
Core rulebook, rulebook FAQ, Codex Space Marines, SM's FAQ, Ultramarines supplement, Ultramarines FAQ, Vigilus Defiant, Vigilus FAQ, Chapter Approved 2019
That's nine (9) rules sources to play one army. It's absurd.

Yes but how much content do you need from each one?
First up half of them are FAQ's. They are not books, they are a few sheets of paper (sometimes only one). A few moments with a printer and you've got them. Furthermore many are either small corrections/changes or examples of interactions.

The supplements I agree they can feel a bit much.

Chapter Approved is pretty much mostly point cost changes so you only need it when you write your army list and there are several legal online resources that list the point cost changes if you just want them.


Lets not forget gamers have been asking for faster and more up to date FAQ/Errata documents from GW for years, so its hard to turn around and complain that "now we need them" when in the past we've been screaming to get them. Heck I recall at least one edition where the FAQ for several armies didn't come out until the rules edition changed. You basically got your army FAQ only for GW to next week release a brand new rules system! So the system we have now is far superior even if it means updating a sheet of A4 every half a year or so.

I mean personally i would prefer an app to books for chapter approved and codexes. an all in one GW ap with a monthly fee to have all armies or options for those who play 1 faction to just buy the rules for the edition and that codex. That said I understand why they do not, physical/digital books are profitable.

An aside here I do fear if they went app only a lot of the art and story would be lost as things evolve in codexes we get new faction art and fluff that I look forward to every edition and release.

Karol wrote:So you want to tell me that you can walk in to a GW store or any other store and drop a photo copy of a codex, and then play? Because, unless the store doesn't sell codex, I don't see it ever happening.

And as far as policy goes, If GW could do it today, they would sell each unit as a separate book.

Yes, at my stores, everyone uses battlescribe as their main source for the rules. The stores each have a copy of chapter approved that is free to use by all.
If any rules interaction comes up where we aren't sure, we just go on the store computer to check the corresponding faq. if it happens that the computer is being used, the store even printed out the faqs so we can access them.
I always have my codexes with me, but theyre never used because even if i show them whats written in them, there might be a faq/errata somewhere that invalidates the codex.

Librarian here. I approve of more books and I have an outstanding bias.

That is all

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:So you want to tell me that you can walk in to a GW store or any other store and drop a photo copy of a codex, and then play? Because, unless the store doesn't sell codex, I don't see it ever happening.

And as far as policy goes, If GW could do it today, they would sell each unit as a separate book.

Yes, at my stores, everyone uses battlescribe as their main source for the rules. The stores each have a copy of chapter approved that is free to use by all.
If any rules interaction comes up where we aren't sure, we just go on the store computer to check the corresponding faq. if it happens that the computer is being used, the store even printed out the faqs so we can access them.
I always have my codexes with me, but theyre never used because even if i show them whats written in them, there might be a faq/errata somewhere that invalidates the codex.

Battlescribe is a terrible source of rules. I have found way too many errors on that app over the years playing 8th. The only thing I use it for is a calculator for points when I am at home, since I can't make a SM list with more than one detachment without the app crashing on my phone.

Edit: Also I wouldn't use the app at all if using GW books to calculate pts wasn't such a pain.

 Overread wrote:

 oni wrote:
There are definitely too many books required to play. I used to be someone who bought all of the books, but there have been so many that I just stopped altogether. In fact, GW's release pace has been so fast that I just stopped buying anything. There's no time to absorb and enjoy a release before it's onto the next thing.

Let's look at Ultramarines for a moment. One needs all of the following to play them:
Core rulebook, rulebook FAQ, Codex Space Marines, SM's FAQ, Ultramarines supplement, Ultramarines FAQ, Vigilus Defiant, Vigilus FAQ, Chapter Approved 2019
That's nine (9) rules sources to play one army. It's absurd.

Yes but how much content do you need from each one?
First up half of them are FAQ's. They are not books, they are a few sheets of paper (sometimes only one). A few moments with a printer and you've got them. Furthermore many are either small corrections/changes or examples of interactions.

The supplements I agree they can feel a bit much.

Chapter Approved is pretty much mostly point cost changes so you only need it when you write your army list and there are several legal online resources that list the point cost changes if you just want them.


Lets not forget gamers have been asking for faster and more up to date FAQ/Errata documents from GW for years, so its hard to turn around and complain that "now we need them" when in the past we've been screaming to get them. Heck I recall at least one edition where the FAQ for several armies didn't come out until the rules edition changed. You basically got your army FAQ only for GW to next week release a brand new rules system! So the system we have now is far superior even if it means updating a sheet of A4 every half a year or so.

I believe your mindset may be on transportation where as mine is simply rules sources. Whether we're discussing books or paper photocopies is unimportant because it's still nine (9) rules sources to play one army.

 oni wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 oni wrote:
There are definitely too many books required to play. I used to be someone who bought all of the books, but there have been so many that I just stopped altogether. In fact, GW's release pace has been so fast that I just stopped buying anything. There's no time to absorb and enjoy a release before it's onto the next thing.

Let's look at Ultramarines for a moment. One needs all of the following to play them:
Core rulebook, rulebook FAQ, Codex Space Marines, SM's FAQ, Ultramarines supplement, Ultramarines FAQ, Vigilus Defiant, Vigilus FAQ, Chapter Approved 2019
That's nine (9) rules sources to play one army. It's absurd.

Yes but how much content do you need from each one?
First up half of them are FAQ's. They are not books, they are a few sheets of paper (sometimes only one). A few moments with a printer and you've got them. Furthermore many are either small corrections/changes or examples of interactions.

The supplements I agree they can feel a bit much.

Chapter Approved is pretty much mostly point cost changes so you only need it when you write your army list and there are several legal online resources that list the point cost changes if you just want them.


Lets not forget gamers have been asking for faster and more up to date FAQ/Errata documents from GW for years, so its hard to turn around and complain that "now we need them" when in the past we've been screaming to get them. Heck I recall at least one edition where the FAQ for several armies didn't come out until the rules edition changed. You basically got your army FAQ only for GW to next week release a brand new rules system! So the system we have now is far superior even if it means updating a sheet of A4 every half a year or so.

I believe your mindset may be on transportation where as mine is simply rules sources. Whether we're discussing books or paper photocopies is unimportant because it's still nine (9) rules sources to play one army.

Only in theory. Most players won't need to reference the core rulebook when they make lists since the army creation rules aren't hard to memorize. Vigilus is an optional expansion that you don't need with UM to be competitive. The FAQ for UM is barely over one page and the SM one is barely over two pages. Hard to really call them a rules source equal to a much longer codex.

Also chapter approved 2019 isn't out yet.

A small detail, but I am diametrically opposed to this:

" It would be a lot easier to accept if they moved to cheaper perfect bound books rather than hardcovers that will be obsolete within 2 years."

I truly detest perfect bound.

BrianDavion wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I remind folks that prior to their new codex Marines where one of those weak factions.

And?

You're not owed some special period of dominance because of past weakness

you're the one claiming they could have released new codices for weak factions instead of releasing stuff for Marines.

Yeah and so what? Marines definitely needed the 2.0 codex and it was a success since it immediately rocketed them to the top of the meta. Then the supplements overshot them. They did not need supplements to make an already powerful army even more powerful.

If your issue is with the cyclical nature of a codex's power level, then GW should maybe release more books in big clumps with external testing and balance between them. Dragging out releases over years results in a constant escalation that benefits the latest release.

THIS is what you get when every subfaction of every subfaction of every faction gets its own special snowflake rules.

Keep It Simple, Stupid. K.I.S.S.

Been a major component of Army planning since before I enlisted, and still serves to this day.