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ERJAK wrote:

It's a swingy, random, sitting duck that's also very fragile, considering there's no way to repair it or stop it from degrading. 170pts feels very steep for that. MD only make up for its price if you're replacing multiple dice, so it'll depend on which MD interpretation is correct. Adding 2.5 damage to one shot, once per turn, for one of them,(which is what a 6 does on average) is not particularly impressive.

Comparing it to the hardest thing around is the only comparison that matters. Whether IH need a nerf or not is irrelevant, they're the big kids on the block you have to be able to measure up with them, or at least deal with them, if you want to win. Having your absolute best long range shooting unit be equal to or even slightly better than a unit that no IH player would even consider, is probably not good times.

I don't know that I'd characterize 3D3 S8 AP3 as swingy. D6 damage is, but then you have 6 shots usually and MD to back it up. Sure, MD on average is "only" 2.5 wounds more, but when you can determine the outcome of a result then it becomes much more than just an average.

Feel free to compare to IH, but it isn't going to get you anywhere useful. We all know they need a nerf. Either GW finds a way to nerf them or the (competitive) game boils over and the company suffers.

Argent Shroud has the best version of all the subfaction rules of "movement" of the game, to be honest. Tallarn, Deathguard, Black Legion, etc...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Jarval wrote:
The big thing for me is that the timing on when you spend the Miracle Dice feels off - they're distinctly mediocre as stands, where you have to use them before you roll. If you could spend them to replace a dice result after you rolled, they'd be vastly better and a notably more useful resource.

And absurdly overpowered.

Depending on how many you get of course. 1/game, less so than, say, 1 per 10 models (or however you want).

You get more miracle dice than you can use on Acts of Faith in the current book paradigm, so that would have to be reduced if you were buffing AoF to be an after the fact decision. I personally prefer GW's system a great deal; giving you a large number of miracle dice allows it to be more consistent, rolling a 1 is less of an issue when you are going to have more than that one dice.

I like the Bloody Rose the most. Crazy melee Sisters sounds like fun. Too bad the hover pulpit is locked to Martyred Lady as I really like that model.

Also I disagree with the notion that the only thing that matters if is something can go toe to toe with the most OP thing in the meta.


Thats not how this works. The busted stuff should be and will be nerfed.

 Galas wrote:
Also I disagree with the notion that the only thing that matters if is something can go toe to toe with the most OP thing in the meta.


Thats not how this works. The busted stuff should be and will be nerfed.

Did you not know that literally every opponent you'll ever play against will be rolling up with only the hottest OP flavor of the month army?

 godardc wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap

That's only when played as IH. In addition, isn't the exorcist able to shoot with no LoS ?

No. It's a tank hunter, not an artillery. It's never been able to shoot NLoS, but it is very tall so it's easy for it to see over things.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 godardc wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap

That's only when played as IH. In addition, isn't the exorcist able to shoot with no LoS ?

No. It's a tank hunter, not an artillery. It's never been able to shoot NLoS, but it is very tall so it's easy for it to see over things.

I do wish it got the ability though. Then I wouldn't have to explain that every pick-up game...

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


I hear a lot of people talking about Argent Shroud with the doctrine for +1 Advance for mono-lists.

Are you? probably included me when i felt more up about this. im sticking with argent shroud so long as im doing this because thats where my story for my army descends from, but i find the Hand of the emperor sacred rite so piddly offhand that the only reason im not immediately thinking of running to ally the army is the potential value of the Deny rite and having it in the back pocket in case you need it. wish i could have it and assassins at least...

that doctrine IS nice because you can just advance so much in the army each turn and get away with it, but you did point out how little it has. Deeds not words indeed, it's one of the least wordy subfaction rules there is. it ends up working well for me because i already was looking to run tri-retributor in my list planning, so now auto-advancing heavy bolters at no penalty is one of the best things the book gave my playstyle.

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
One thing that worries me a bit is the AP -2 ignoring combo. I'm afraid that a gunline build around that will overwhelmingly be the most optimal build and it sounds super boring to me.

3 exorcists, 80-90 battle sisters on foot, celestine and support characters, and not a whole lot else at 2000pts?

So... Pretty much what I already own. I'm good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 godardc wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap

That's only when played as IH. In addition, isn't the exorcist able to shoot with no LoS ?

No. It's a tank hunter, not an artillery. It's never been able to shoot NLoS, but it is very tall so it's easy for it to see over things.

Only true if you're using that God-awful looking cartoonish pipe organ abomination. If that was my only option I'd never field an exorcist, no matter what rules it had.
Thankfully though I own 4 of the old FW missel tube kits.

The codex is so lack luster, everyones argument is about the exorcist ...So we have one (debatable) good unit.....and "neat" synergistic mono faction rules. I don't know if I call that mid tier....or worse.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
The codex is so lack luster, everyones argument is about the exorcist ...So we have one (debatable) good unit.....and "neat" synergistic mono faction rules. I don't know if I call that mid tier....or worse.

Because the Exorcist was the biggest changing unit. None of the special characters seem competitive, Immolators got an unneeded cost increase, Dominions got a bit of a kick and Rets got a raise while Celestians got a buff that hasn't convinced anyone yet. (Probably due to the fact that they can print the Acolyte's new Bodyguard rule and then the Celestian's and be ok with that.)

I like the codex from what I've seen. It's far too early to say if it's powerful or weak. This topic is showing a bit of ignorance in that regard.

Some armies are obviously powerful, others require unlocking. It's why Raven Guard were considered underwhelming at launch. How wrong the casual were.

Unfortunately most people only get their opinions from tournament results. Let's wait and see how Sisters perform after the actual model range has been released and people have time to put armies together.

Lammia wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
The codex is so lack luster, everyones argument is about the exorcist ...So we have one (debatable) good unit.....and "neat" synergistic mono faction rules. I don't know if I call that mid tier....or worse.

Because the Exorcist was the biggest changing unit. None of the special characters seem competitive, Immolators got an unneeded cost increase, Dominions got a bit of a kick and Rets got a raise while Celestians got a buff that hasn't convinced anyone yet. (Probably due to the fact that they can print the Acolyte's new Bodyguard rule and then the Celestian's and be ok with that.)

Exactly it is very very lackluster. Everything they do, some other army does better....

Well okay- perhaps my defense of the Exorcist was a tad over zealous. I'm still going to field at least two, and in some battles, maybe 3, but I am starting to understand people's frustration.

I tried to find some of the barrage of leaks that I've read to find the exorcist specific strat, but I couldn't find it, and now I'm beginning to doubt that I'm remembering it correctly, or even that it was there in the first place.

I believe it allowed you to reroll any or all of the dice for the number of shots you get. It might have been a strat, or an ammo cherub... not sure.

I agree as well that, particularly with damage, I can see the single MD limit coming into play; about hits I'm less certain. I don't play AoS, but I remember reading a description of how Disciples of Tzeench function, and that's the thing that's leading to multi-dice interpretations of the rule.

If you can only use one MD, I can still see the utility if you're splitting your fire between units, but that's it.

I just need to wait until the dex is in my hand, because it is driving me nuts trying to piece together the combos from so many sources.

I'm not a SoB player so feel free to take this with a *massive* pinch of salt.

However, looking at all the leaks, the codex just seems rather bland.

Not that it's necessarily weak, just that nothing I've seen has caught my interest or made me want to start a SoB army.

The new Act of Faith ability feels less like GW listening to the issues with the older iterations of Acts of Faith and more like them just giving up.entirely. I mean, maybe Miracle Dice will be useful, even strong, but there's really nothing about the rule that ties them to Sisters of Battle. Indeed, Tzeentch basically got the same ability in AoS long before SoB did in 40k (and IMO it feels far more Tzeentch-y than SoB-y).

Again, it's not necessarily bad it's just that for a codex that is at least partially celebrating the long, long-awaited reworking of ancient SoB models, I'd have expected more of a spark. I fear, however, it just feels like a bog-standard codex to pass a bit of time before the next Marine release.

Man, I really can’t believe how salty everyone is, just because this codex isn’t OBVIOUSLY as strong as space marines.

A LOT will hinge on a FAQ for Miracle Dice. It’s pretty impossible to judge the strength of this codex without some clarification.

PenitentJake wrote:
Well okay- perhaps my defense of the Exorcist was a tad over zealous. I'm still going to field at least two, and in some battles, maybe 3, but I am starting to understand people's frustration.

I tried to find some of the barrage of leaks that I've read to find the exorcist specific strat, but I couldn't find it, and now I'm beginning to doubt that I'm remembering it correctly, or even that it was there in the first place.

I believe it allowed you to reroll any or all of the dice for the number of shots you get. It might have been a strat, or an ammo cherub... not sure.

I agree as well that, particularly with damage, I can see the single MD limit coming into play; about hits I'm less certain. I don't play AoS, but I remember reading a description of how Disciples of Tzeench function, and that's the thing that's leading to multi-dice interpretations of the rule.

If you can only use one MD, I can still see the utility if you're splitting your fire between units, but that's it.

I just need to wait until the dex is in my hand, because it is driving me nuts trying to piece together the combos from so many sources.

There is the Stratagem for re-rolling Exorcist shots, you aren't going mad.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Also I disagree with the notion that the only thing that matters if is something can go toe to toe with the most OP thing in the meta.


Thats not how this works. The busted stuff should be and will be nerfed.

Did you not know that literally every opponent you'll ever play against will be rolling up with only the hottest OP flavor of the month army?

TBF, lots of people play Marines. Now that Marines are really, really, really good, *lots and lots* of people will be playing them. So should you expect to run into them? Yeah. Will they all be tourney ready? Nah. But even casual Marines lists are pretty scary. You can't just take fluffy gak and expect to have a chance.

What i’m taking from this thread then is that Sisters have a reasonable codex that isn’t meta breaking, and probably won’t compete on the top tables, but we’re not quite sure yet as it’s not in all players hands? It also seems a bit dull?

I’ve not kept up with all of the online leaking and pre-release videos, so i’m not trying to fuel any heated discussion here. (My little disclaimer before one of the local anger merchants jump down my throat for some inane reason).

Not really sure why its "dull".
Compared to say DE (most non-Marine factions imo) you have a reasonable number of possible synergies - with the rites, chapter tactics, options and buffing characters.
A 49 point 5 sister squad with 2 stormbolters seems like a reasonable baseline to build from - however you want to then buff them up.
Immolators and rhinos being 10-20 points too expensive undermines a heavy mechanised list (imo anyway) but others may disagree. Some of the non-sisters units that dont synergise also feel a bit meh.
But if we were not living in an IH/RG paradise I'm not sure why you would say this codex is obviously weak. I guess the argument is that CA19 may provide buffs to various factions whereas Sisters are stuck for a year. But surely wait and see.

Tyel wrote:
Not really sure why its "dull".
Compared to say DE (most non-Marine factions imo) you have a reasonable number of possible synergies - with the rites, chapter tactics, options and buffing characters.
A 49 point 5 sister squad with 2 stormbolters seems like a reasonable baseline to build from - however you want to then buff them up.
Immolators and rhinos being 10-20 points too expensive undermines a heavy mechanised list (imo anyway) but others may disagree. Some of the non-sisters units that dont synergise also feel a bit meh.
But if we were not living in an IH/RG paradise I'm not sure why you would say this codex is obviously weak. I guess the argument is that CA19 may provide buffs to various factions whereas Sisters are stuck for a year. But surely wait and see.

Thanks for the roundup. I’m still excited to get my hands on the codex.

The codex has lots of builds, unique mechanics, excellent minis and a lot of flavor. It is also by far the most player dependent army since it can customize bonuses and manage rolls.

Strong or weak only time will tell, but dull? I see no reason for that.

More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1 and 2 disposal.

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

There are ways to use them

Speaking as a filthy casual, I think (from what I've gathered so far) the dex is...interesting. it seems to have a lot of interesting flavours that appeal to me narritively. Such a large array of relics has me relishing making up new models with them and coming up with stories for each character that wields them.
Yes there are some changes I'm disappointed at- loss of eviscerators and exorcist losing a point of ap and our vehicles going back to being fragile with the loss of the 4++; still no jump pack Cannoness option so my jump pack Cannoness continues to collect dust from witch hunter days.

But overall I'm looking for wears to the new stories I get to make with the new options.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1
and 2 disposal.

That's kinda my point though - it's really weird having "Miracle" Dice that are so useless you need special Stratagems and such to give you ways to dispose of them.

 vipoid wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1
and 2 disposal.

That's kinda my point though - it's really weird having "Miracle" Dice that are so useless you need special Stratagems and such to give you ways to dispose of them.

I'd be disappointed if all you could use miracle dice for is as dice. It would feel more... bland.

I find cool you can burn them for some bonuses. It makes more valuable to gain as many as you can