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Not Online!!! wrote:

Honestly it's simple: Vehicle keyword / beast keyword , can be freely targeted even in melee. Caveat, add a miss trhow of 1 as a hit against your allies. (like the purge stratagem)
Secondly, falling back from big singular stuff, should be a non issue because that is frankly simple. However if you tell me 8 marines are falling back out of my 50 mutant blob there will start to be issues imo, overrrunning should favour massed units, because these units suffer the most from the bad melee rules of 8th. The Fire and forget smashcaptains etc work perfectly fine, but the horde melee just doesn't. my solution, all models within 1" of multiple enemy combatants that falls back either A: takes as many hits or B : remains to buy time for it's comrades leading to a minor fight phase after which the holding back one dies.

To address your points:

1) Tau battlesuits are now immune to being targeted in melee, despite being far larger than most Tyranid monstrous creatures (e.g. the Riptide). Keywords don't fix everything and aren't very future proofed.

2) 8 Marines could easily fall back from 50 mutants, since they're faster, stronger and more skilled, IMO. Making "overrun" rules makes sense in historical games where the physical capabilities of the combatants are roughly equal, but are you really telling me that 10 grots could overrun 7 Marines simply because they outnumber them? Additionally, they're likely not fighting all 50. They're fighting the front rank of, say, 10. And the rest are milling around in the back waiting for their turn. If you have the marines completely swamped by mutants, they can't fall back anyways as they are surrounded.

3) Allowing people to make swings has serious action economy issues. Why would the enemy get to hit me more times in the 6 seconds (or whatever) of combat that a turn represents if I choose to leave rather than stay? If I choose to stay, should he get those attacks added anyways since he had time to make them? Or does staying locked in combat warp time so that they lose the time they'd've spent making them?

3.5) Leaving a lone fallback guy to die is fine, if he actually dies. How many would you have to leave behind if, say, four separate units fell back? 1 from one of them, or 1 from each of them? What would falling back with a one-model-unit (say, an Astropath) look like in this situation?

EDIT:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

3) Serious issues with action economy - if you touch 4 units in your charge, and all 4 try to fall back, do you get to try to hit all four? Why is your Guardsman suddenly four times better at meleeing the enemy than he is in the melee phase? How does he run from one unit to the other? Do you restrict them to picking one unit falling back to attack? How are attacks split if they all fall back at the same time? If they don't fall back at the same time, then do you hit all of them, or will you let them all go?

yeah but if i fail multiple charges on the same unit, it gets to overwatch for every single one of them, which is the same problem yet seems to be accepted.

Yes, that's certainly a problem, I'm not sure what you mean by "accepted". I certainly would like it to be changed so that it makes sense. Also, it's easier to swallow them hitting on 6s, because they're not taking their time to aim like they do in the shooting phase. (though I still think it should be changed).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
...2) 8 Marines could easily fall back from 50 mutants, since they're faster, stronger and more skilled, IMO. Making "overrun" rules makes sense in historical games where the physical capabilities of the combatants are roughly equal, but are you really telling me that 10 grots could overrun 7 Marines simply because they outnumber them? Additionally, they're likely not fighting all 50. They're fighting the front rank of, say, 10. And the rest are milling around in the back waiting for their turn. If you have the marines completely swamped by mutants, they can't fall back anyways as they are surrounded...

Maybe we could have some kind of stat to reflect the differing speeds of models to make it easier/harder to overrun. What might you call such a thing? Agility? Alacrity? Maybe Initiative?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Honestly it's simple: Vehicle keyword / beast keyword , can be freely targeted even in melee. Caveat, add a miss trhow of 1 as a hit against your allies. (like the purge stratagem)
Secondly, falling back from big singular stuff, should be a non issue because that is frankly simple. However if you tell me 8 marines are falling back out of my 50 mutant blob there will start to be issues imo, overrrunning should favour massed units, because these units suffer the most from the bad melee rules of 8th. The Fire and forget smashcaptains etc work perfectly fine, but the horde melee just doesn't. my solution, all models within 1" of multiple enemy combatants that falls back either A: takes as many hits or B : remains to buy time for it's comrades leading to a minor fight phase after which the holding back one dies.

To address your points:

1) Tau battlesuits are now immune to being targeted in melee, despite being far larger than most Tyranid monstrous creatures (e.g. the Riptide). Keywords don't fix everything and aren't very future proofed.

2) 8 Marines could easily fall back from 50 mutants, since they're faster, stronger and more skilled, IMO. Making "overrun" rules makes sense in historical games where the physical capabilities of the combatants are roughly equal, but are you really telling me that 10 grots could overrun 7 Marines simply because they outnumber them? Additionally, they're likely not fighting all 50. They're fighting the front rank of, say, 10. And the rest are milling around in the back waiting for their turn. If you have the marines completely swamped by mutants, they can't fall back anyways as they are surrounded.

3) Allowing people to make swings has serious action economy issues. Why would the enemy get to hit me more times in the 6 seconds (or whatever) of combat that a turn represents if I choose to leave rather than stay? If I choose to stay, should he get those attacks added anyways since he had time to make them? Or does staying locked in combat warp time so that they can make them?

3.5) Leaving a lone fallback guy to die is fine, if he actually dies. How many would you have to leave behind if, say, four separate units fell back? 1 from one of them, or 1 from each of them? What would falling back with a one-model-unit (say, an Astropath) look like in this situation?

1:Well alternatively you could go for a size mechanic.

2. Non argument game mechanics wise, you manouverd yourself to be surrounded you don't get to fall back. Simple as that. and secondly i didn't say all of them need to remain, however if 6 marines have a frontrank in combat then those 6 shouldn't get to just turn tail as it is now and get out unscathed whiles my unit now can go commit seppuku might aswell.

3 Generally , if you turn tail you present the enemy an oppurtunity to strike. Also your action is to run and maybee safe your hide and basically have removed the future agency of the melee unit by exposing it. If anything the action economy is allready stacked against the melee units anyways. Due to having to take atm counter melee anyways.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
...2) 8 Marines could easily fall back from 50 mutants, since they're faster, stronger and more skilled, IMO. Making "overrun" rules makes sense in historical games where the physical capabilities of the combatants are roughly equal, but are you really telling me that 10 grots could overrun 7 Marines simply because they outnumber them? Additionally, they're likely not fighting all 50. They're fighting the front rank of, say, 10. And the rest are milling around in the back waiting for their turn. If you have the marines completely swamped by mutants, they can't fall back anyways as they are surrounded...

Maybe we could have some kind of stat to reflect the differing speeds of models to make it easier/harder to overrun. What might you call such a thing? Agility? Alacrity? Maybe Initiative?

if only

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you should be able to use your guns in melle at -1 to hit instead of overwatch.

Sound fair?

Or how about a d6 run move away from your charging units to make up for the fact they aren't just going to stand there while people are charging them with swords.

Stop bitching about melle. This is the strongest melle has ever been. It is high risk high reward. deal with it.

That's like saying "Stop bitching about Iron Hands, because IH could have given S10T10W10 to every model instead!"

It doesn't move the needle.

Ironhands flat out get insane free rules for no reason. How is that the same as - I'm chosing to play high risk high reward playstyle using melle in a game with guns and failing a lot because it's high risk.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
...2) 8 Marines could easily fall back from 50 mutants, since they're faster, stronger and more skilled, IMO. Making "overrun" rules makes sense in historical games where the physical capabilities of the combatants are roughly equal, but are you really telling me that 10 grots could overrun 7 Marines simply because they outnumber them? Additionally, they're likely not fighting all 50. They're fighting the front rank of, say, 10. And the rest are milling around in the back waiting for their turn. If you have the marines completely swamped by mutants, they can't fall back anyways as they are surrounded...

Maybe we could have some kind of stat to reflect the differing speeds of models to make it easier/harder to overrun. What might you call such a thing? Agility? Alacrity? Maybe Initiative?

That sounds far too complicated.

What we really need is a precise formula taking into account movement, toughness, save, invulnerable save, FNP, current day of the week, time until St Swithin's Day, each player's respective BMI, and whether they squeeze their toothpaste from the bottom or the middle. This formula will be completely unmodifiable except for a mere 146 Stratagems and every SM model (which will ignore it entirely).

Not Online!!! wrote:
1:Well alternatively you could go for a size mechanic.

2. Non argument game mechanics wise, you manouverd yourself to be surrounded you don't get to fall back. Simple as that. and secondly i didn't say all of them need to remain, however if 6 marines have a frontrank in combat then those 6 shouldn't get to just turn tail as it is now and get out unscathed whiles my unit now can go commit seppuku might aswell.

3 Generally , if you turn tail you present the enemy an oppurtunity to strike. Also your action is to run and maybee safe your hide and basically have removed the future agency of the melee unit by exposing it. If anything the action economy is allready stacked against the melee units anyways. Due to having to take atm counter melee anyways.

Size still doesn't really address the problem. A powerful dude in combat with much much much less powerful dudes of almost the same size (e.g. an SM captain in combat with 3 Guardsmen) should still be shoot-able, even if the guardsmen are caught in the cross fire. No commander is going to be like "well, guess we'll just get carved up then." In reality, of course, they'd hold their fire until the powerful dude slew each guardsman, then blow him away. But there's no real mechanic for that. (Think a 'readied action' in D&D).

I agree that you shouldn't be able to fall back if surrounded (duh) but are you seriously telling me the stronger, better, faster Marines can't get away from the 10 mutants fighting them? The "unit" may have 50, but if they're not surrounded, they're not fighting all 50. That's a fact, jack.

Are we doing combats based on opportunity to strike, now? Does a Crisis Suit flying away from the enemy give as much of an opportunity to be hit (even though he can do it by facing the enemy) as, say, a Guardsman turning tail and fleeing? Remember, falling back isn't fleeing; they're separate mechanics. It's not like the person is just literally turning around and sprinting away - likely, they're parrying blows with the goal of opening space for them to back off. Agreed that melee units sometimes suffer in the current system though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
...2) 8 Marines could easily fall back from 50 mutants, since they're faster, stronger and more skilled, IMO. Making "overrun" rules makes sense in historical games where the physical capabilities of the combatants are roughly equal, but are you really telling me that 10 grots could overrun 7 Marines simply because they outnumber them? Additionally, they're likely not fighting all 50. They're fighting the front rank of, say, 10. And the rest are milling around in the back waiting for their turn. If you have the marines completely swamped by mutants, they can't fall back anyways as they are surrounded...

Maybe we could have some kind of stat to reflect the differing speeds of models to make it easier/harder to overrun. What might you call such a thing? Agility? Alacrity? Maybe Initiative?

if only

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you should be able to use your guns in melle at -1 to hit instead of overwatch.

Sound fair?

Or how about a d6 run move away from your charging units to make up for the fact they aren't just going to stand there while people are charging them with swords.

Stop bitching about melle. This is the strongest melle has ever been. It is high risk high reward. deal with it.

That's like saying "Stop bitching about Iron Hands, because IH could have given S10T10W10 to every model instead!"

It doesn't move the needle.

Ironhands flat out get insane free rules for no reason. How is that the same as - I'm chosing to play high risk high reward playstyle using melle in a game with guns and failing a lot because it's high risk.

I didn't compare IH being OP to melee being weak. I compared saying "It's OK, because it could have been worse" in response to CC players' complataints to saying "It's OK, because it could have been worse" in response to IH opponents' complaints.

Reducto ad absurdum doesn't suggest the absurd is true, it shows how absurd the form of the original argument was.

 catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Stop bitching about melle. This is the strongest melle has ever been. It is high risk high reward. deal with it.

Can you share some examples of meta, tournament-winning melee builds in 8th? Because all the ones I can think of off the top of my head (Alaitoc flier spam, Knights + Guard, Iron Hands gunline, Tau gunline) are shooting-oriented, with the second of those having a minor melee contingent (smash captains).

Melee requires you to get into combat while getting shot, eat overwatch, roll high enough to make it to the target, then pin your target so that they can't retreat and don't wipe them out or you'll get shot. It's definitely high risk but I have a hard time seeing the reward.

Back in 3rd Ed, Rapid Fire weapons only got one shot out to 12" if they moved, Heavy couldn't move and shoot, charging gave you an extra attack, winning the melee and forcing the enemy to fall back carried a significant chance of instantly killing the entire unit, and cover worked. No overwatch, gunlines were completely static, and nobody could voluntarily retreat. I have a hard time seeing how melee is stronger than it was back then; my Hormagaunts with their 18" threat radius and 3 attacks on the charge used to mulch Guard and SM gunlines. Now not so much, and the tricks I have to get into melee faster are offset by things like shoot-twice abilities and better Overwatch.

Ork da jump. TS tzangor bombs. Bloodletter bombs. 3x gallant. Disco lord + Chas knights. Eldar shinning spears. Catachan brigade with ogrins. Basically...the majority of all competitive lists have featured a lot of melle most having it be their strongest aspect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you should be able to use your guns in melle at -1 to hit instead of overwatch.

Sound fair?

Or how about a d6 run move away from your charging units to make up for the fact they aren't just going to stand there while people are charging them with swords.

Stop bitching about melle. This is the strongest melle has ever been. It is high risk high reward. deal with it.

That's like saying "Stop bitching about Iron Hands, because IH could have given S10T10W10 to every model instead!"

It doesn't move the needle.

Ironhands flat out get insane free rules for no reason. How is that the same as - I'm chosing to play high risk high reward playstyle using melle in a game with guns and failing a lot because it's high risk.

I didn't compare IH being OP to melee being weak. I compared saying "It's OK, because it could have been worse" in response to CC players' complataints to saying "It's OK, because it could have been worse" in response to IH opponents' complaints.

Reducto ad absurdum doesn't suggest the absurd is true, it shows how absurd the form of the original argument was.

Melle is not weak ^^^ see above.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Stop bitching about melle. This is the strongest melle has ever been. It is high risk high reward. deal with it.

Can you share some examples of meta, tournament-winning melee builds in 8th? Because all the ones I can think of off the top of my head (Alaitoc flier spam, Knights + Guard, Iron Hands gunline, Tau gunline) are shooting-oriented, with the second of those having a minor melee contingent (smash captains).

Melee requires you to get into combat while getting shot, eat overwatch, roll high enough to make it to the target, then pin your target so that they can't retreat and don't wipe them out or you'll get shot. It's definitely high risk but I have a hard time seeing the reward.

Back in 3rd Ed, Rapid Fire weapons only got one shot out to 12" if they moved, Heavy couldn't move and shoot, charging gave you an extra attack, winning the melee and forcing the enemy to fall back carried a significant chance of instantly killing the entire unit, and cover worked. No overwatch, gunlines were completely static, and nobody could voluntarily retreat. I have a hard time seeing how melee is stronger than it was back then; my Hormagaunts with their 18" threat radius and 3 attacks on the charge used to mulch Guard and SM gunlines. Now not so much, and the tricks I have to get into melee faster are offset by things like shoot-twice abilities and better Overwatch.

Ork da jump. TS tzangor bombs. Bloodletter bombs. 3x gallant. Disco lord + Chas knights. Eldar shinning spears. Catachan brigade with ogrins. Basically...the majority of all competitive lists have featured a lot of melle most having it be their strongest aspect.

IG + Custodes - mostly shooting, with some capable melee. Neither a lot of melee, nor is the melee the strongest.
Castellan IoM Soup - The Castellan might be good in melee, but it's a shooting unit. It's a shooty list. It's biggest threats are dakka.
IG + SM Beatstick - The SM beatstick is a nasty individual, but most of the list is shooty
Ynnari Reapers - Might have had some lesser CC support in some cases, but was almost entirely a shooty list. It's strongest unit is shooty by far.
Ynnari Spectres - Same as Reapers
Eldar Airwing - Shooty
Biel-Tan Shuriken Spam - Shooty
Gman Bubbles - Shooty
IH Stupidity - Shooty

The majority of competitive lists have been *strongly* skewed to shooty. There have been some competitive CC lists, but they've been the minority. Not sure how you're seeing them as the majority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you should be able to use your guns in melle at -1 to hit instead of overwatch.

Sound fair?

Or how about a d6 run move away from your charging units to make up for the fact they aren't just going to stand there while people are charging them with swords.

Stop bitching about melle. This is the strongest melle has ever been. It is high risk high reward. deal with it.

That's like saying "Stop bitching about Iron Hands, because IH could have given S10T10W10 to every model instead!"

It doesn't move the needle.

Ironhands flat out get insane free rules for no reason. How is that the same as - I'm chosing to play high risk high reward playstyle using melle in a game with guns and failing a lot because it's high risk.

I didn't compare IH being OP to melee being weak. I compared saying "It's OK, because it could have been worse" in response to CC players' complataints to saying "It's OK, because it could have been worse" in response to IH opponents' complaints.

Reducto ad absurdum doesn't suggest the absurd is true, it shows how absurd the form of the original argument was.

Melle is not weak ^^^ see above.

"Melee is not weak because it could be made weaker" doesn't support the claim. The above you quoted is refuting that logic.

Imagine a claim like "Marines weren't weak before the 'Dex because they could have been given a 5+ armor save! So quit bitching about Marines being weak!". Would that convince anyone? Should that convince anyone?

Dude... every eldar list takes spears. because they are the best unit they have - they can shoot but they melle much harder. So you just listed 4 lists as 1 list. Space marines are too slow to be an assault list - most their melle is counter charge except now they have a bunch of melle lists using the same stratagies as tzangore bombs. Castellan + IG brigade was a huge amount of melle. 3x sheild captain on bike....Those are melle units. Smash captains...melle.

I wouldnt say guard squads holding up better melee units as really being real melee units. Sure catachan make them hit back harder but their real purpose isnt to go beat up the enemy in melee. If the guard player could remove their ability to even fight in CC for +1 to toughness and armor save they would take that in a heartbeat and happily replace straken and priest with even more dakka.

I have heard that good Tau players sometimes charge with their shield drones and riptides so we better count Tau as a melee army.

250-350pts of smash captains in a 2000pts list isnt really a melee list and showing how good melee is. They ignore overwatch, have better charges than average and dont care about being in the open since they have already done their purpose by then. All made viable due to how CP works rather than the melee mechanics. Its like saying BA were in a good place since Imperium lists used a smash captain since theirs were the best one despite nothing else in the whole codex were worth taking.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dude... every eldar list takes spears. because they are the best unit they have - they can shoot but they melle much harder. So you just listed 4 lists as 1 list.

Umwhat?

Back when Ynnari Dark Reaper stars were the deathstar du jour, most of those lists did *not* also take a Shining Spear deathstar. Most of those lists can only fit a single deathstar, and even if it could have fit two, only one gets to be the deathstar - the other wasn't nearly as deadly or survivable. The whole point of the CWE deathstar structure is that one unit can be made silly-OP by stacking buffs/stratagems/powers. Stuff that can only be applied to one.

Spectre stars before them, same deal.

With points changes, Reapers took over for Spectres early on. And with later points changes, Spears took over for Reapers. But Spectre and Reaper stars (and the rest of their lists) were *terrible* at CC. A basic Tac squad would beat a Reaper Star in CC.

You're vastly misremembering those lists if you think they had a spare 300-400 points for a Spear deathstar, or the spare buffs to make the Spears a deathstar along with the core deathstar of the list.

Also, that's only 2 lists (Reaper stars and Spectre stars). Airwing might take some Spears. but that's not a lot of melee. And it's not their strongest aspect - that'd be the flyers' shooting. Shuriken Spam is similar in that it could take some melee, but not a lot of it. And it's focused on shooting, too. Although it might be overstating it's capabilities to list it. Still, that's 3 mostly-shooting CWE list types (Reaper Stars, Spectre Stars, and Airwing) versus one hybrid/mixed list (Spear Stars) and zero melee-centric lists, from the CWE (+Ynnari) faction.

Space marines are too slow to be an assault list

Yeah, Marines are almost as slow as Eldar these days! You do realize that White Scars easily outcharge almost every other faction?

most their melle is counter charge

Captain Smashfether? Countercharge?

except now they have a bunch of melle lists using the same stratagies as tzangore bombs.

They exist, but so do Marine shooty lists. Marines tend to do a *lot* more shooting than chopping.

Castellan + IG brigade was a huge amount of melle.

Charging the Castellan was just about the only way to kill it. It killed things more by shooting and soaking firepower.
And IG could survive a charge cheaply, but they're a shooty threat.

3x sheild captain on bike....Those are melle units. Smash captains...melle.

Congratulations, you've identified a couple melee elements in mostly-shooty lists where their strongest aspects are clearly shooting.

How are those lists that "feature[d] a lot of melle[sic]"? Three SHield Captains or a Smash Captain or three isn't "a lot".
How are those lists that "having it [melee] be their strongest aspect" when they're token threats to support their shooting firepower?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, in case you comment on Spears again:
2 S6 AP-4 attacks vs 1 S6 AP-4 attack + 4 S4 Pseudorending attacks? They shoot much harder than they fight. They're still a CC unit, no argument there, but your supporting facts are wrong.

The same is true for the Ork lists BTW; Shokk Attack Gun relic, Lootas and Smasha Gunz made up the core killing power, the Boyz are there to buy time and screen.

bharring an eldar list that doesn't contain shinning spears or replaces them with tons of harliquen bikes is not a competitive list. Spears are the best unit in the entire game. Oh and they just removed their 4 point increase. The only exception to spears would be eldar lists including 6 flyers.

Spears get 2x the number of laser lance hits in CC. The ap-4 2 damage weapon. Plus the exarch with his 3 attacks at str 8. They melle much better than they shoot.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
...2) 8 Marines could easily fall back from 50 mutants, since they're faster, stronger and more skilled, IMO. Making "overrun" rules makes sense in historical games where the physical capabilities of the combatants are roughly equal, but are you really telling me that 10 grots could overrun 7 Marines simply because they outnumber them? Additionally, they're likely not fighting all 50. They're fighting the front rank of, say, 10. And the rest are milling around in the back waiting for their turn. If you have the marines completely swamped by mutants, they can't fall back anyways as they are surrounded...

Maybe we could have some kind of stat to reflect the differing speeds of models to make it easier/harder to overrun. What might you call such a thing? Agility? Alacrity? Maybe Initiative?

Using Space Marines might be a poor example, since in the editions where there were overrun rules, ATSKNF did some serious shenanigans. If Marines lost combat, they could choose to fail their morale test (and I think they could auto pass it, but more on that later), retreat, and if they were caught, where most players would have that unit obliterated, Marines were just locked back in combat.

Fearless creatures, though, if they lost combat, would take additional hits which might result in even more wounds.

And keep in mind, these were the editions where there was no turn 1 assaults (except a very specific scenario with DE and some truly ridiculous rolling), no assaulting from transports (except BA's, I think), no assaulting from drop pods or after deep striking, etc. So if you're a shooty armor, and you're not prioritizing the 20-gribbly genestealer squad led by a broodlord meandering its way to your lines (and meandering it was because, hey, the broodlord can't fleet so enjoy those 6 inch movements a turn or d6 inches with terrain and a 6 inch charge or d6 with terrain), then you deserved what you got, especially if you had nothing that could counter charge.

 Xenomancers wrote:
bharring an eldar list that doesn't contain shinning spears or replaces them with tons of harliquen bikes is not a competitive list. Spears are the best unit in the entire game. Oh and they just removed their 4 point increase. The only exception to spears would be eldar lists including 6 flyers.

Only 2 of the 5 random Eldar winning lists I pulled up had Spears at all. One was Air Wing with a couple spears (so definitely not a melee list, just the one minor element), although the other had a notable number. Hard to see those 5 lists as overwhelmingly "melee lists".

Spears get 2x the number of laser lance hits in CC. The ap-4 2 damage weapon. Plus the exarch with his 3 attacks at str 8. They melle much better than they shoot.

I have a hard time trading 1 S6 attack, even at Ap-4 D2, for *four* S4 Pseudorend shots. Without running the numbers, it may be better against super durable multi wound targets without invulns, but worse against most things.

 Xenomancers wrote:
bharring an eldar list that doesn't contain shinning spears or replaces them with tons of harliquen bikes is not a competitive list. Spears are the best unit in the entire game. Oh and they just removed their 4 point increase. The only exception to spears would be eldar lists including 6 flyers.

Spears get 2x the number of laser lance hits in CC. The ap-4 2 damage weapon. Plus the exarch with his 3 attacks at str 8. They melle much better than they shoot.

dude, shining spears are far from auto-include in competitive eldar lists. The last time they were ran was when ynnari still was a thing. Theres been some people testing them out with the new 2++ exarch power but its quickly being overshadows by MSU spam with expert crafters + masters of concealment. And before that, flyer spam was the list.


And the fact that shining spears are played doesnt change the fact that melee sucks this edition, theres jsut too many ways to feth it up. Melee units need to either be undercosted (smash captain), have an efficient delivery method (shining spears, smash captains, bloodletters) or be just so efficient when they connect that the risk is actually worth it (smash captains). apart from that, melee feels miserable because you need to reach the gunline to do anything and even when you reach it, if youre not an OP killing machine, the enemy will fall back and vaporize your unit.

here are the ways to render melee useless:
screen (duh),
put your important stuff in ruins and fill the first floor so charging them is impossible,
everything has flying (feth grav tanks) so even going all in to lock a tank isnt worth it anymore,
hyperefficient overwatch,
Hyperefficient buff characters to defend the castle (captains, lieutenants)

I think the fix should be:

1 - A unit can only fire overwatch once per turn, but they can shoot at any unit in range, and split fire if desired. This gives agency to the overwatching player. Why would they shoot at the charging trukk if they were really worried about the boyz?

2 - If they do, they can't fight in the fight phase this player turn (instead of preventing shooting next turn.) It's too easy to forget which units fired by the time the next turn rolls around. Also...preventing a full shooting phase just cripples TAU. It's not really fair to single them out...or is it?

3 - Fallback gives an instant (and complete) fight phase to the opponent, but they hit on sixes.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
bharring an eldar list that doesn't contain shinning spears or replaces them with tons of harliquen bikes is not a competitive list. Spears are the best unit in the entire game. Oh and they just removed their 4 point increase. The only exception to spears would be eldar lists including 6 flyers.

Spears get 2x the number of laser lance hits in CC. The ap-4 2 damage weapon. Plus the exarch with his 3 attacks at str 8. They melle much better than they shoot.

dude, shining spears are far from auto-include in competitive eldar lists. The last time they were ran was when ynnari still was a thing. Theres been some people testing them out with the new 2++ exarch power but its quickly being overshadows by MSU spam with expert crafters + masters of concealment. And before that, flyer spam was the list.


And the fact that shining spears are played doesnt change the fact that melee sucks this edition, theres jsut too many ways to feth it up. Melee units need to either be undercosted (smash captain), have an efficient delivery method (shining spears, smash captains, bloodletters) or be just so efficient when they connect that the risk is actually worth it (smash captains). apart from that, melee feels miserable because you need to reach the gunline to do anything and even when you reach it, if youre not an OP killing machine, the enemy will fall back and vaporize your unit.

here are the ways to render melee useless:
screen (duh),
put your important stuff in ruins and fill the first floor so charging them is impossible,
everything has flying (feth grav tanks) so even going all in to lock a tank isnt worth it anymore,
hyperefficient overwatch,
Hyperefficient buff characters to defend the castle (captains, lieutenants)

It's okay. You are allowed to be wrong. LOL. Eldar list without spears is hilarious.

You do realize they have a natural 4++ to shooting. One of the highest damage output per point in the game. On one of the most credible first turn charge units in the game. 22" move. Holy crap dude. It would be like a DE list not including ravagers. Or an IG list not including command tanks. Sure some people don't use them - but some people just do things to do things - it's not because it's the best move.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
bharring an eldar list that doesn't contain shinning spears or replaces them with tons of harliquen bikes is not a competitive list. Spears are the best unit in the entire game. Oh and they just removed their 4 point increase. The only exception to spears would be eldar lists including 6 flyers.

Spears get 2x the number of laser lance hits in CC. The ap-4 2 damage weapon. Plus the exarch with his 3 attacks at str 8. They melle much better than they shoot.

dude, shining spears are far from auto-include in competitive eldar lists. The last time they were ran was when ynnari still was a thing. Theres been some people testing them out with the new 2++ exarch power but its quickly being overshadows by MSU spam with expert crafters + masters of concealment. And before that, flyer spam was the list.


And the fact that shining spears are played doesnt change the fact that melee sucks this edition, theres jsut too many ways to feth it up. Melee units need to either be undercosted (smash captain), have an efficient delivery method (shining spears, smash captains, bloodletters) or be just so efficient when they connect that the risk is actually worth it (smash captains). apart from that, melee feels miserable because you need to reach the gunline to do anything and even when you reach it, if youre not an OP killing machine, the enemy will fall back and vaporize your unit.

here are the ways to render melee useless:
screen (duh),
put your important stuff in ruins and fill the first floor so charging them is impossible,
everything has flying (feth grav tanks) so even going all in to lock a tank isnt worth it anymore,
hyperefficient overwatch,
Hyperefficient buff characters to defend the castle (captains, lieutenants)

It's okay. You are allowed to be wrong. LOL. Eldar list without spears is hilarious.

You do realize they have a natural 4++ to shooting.

Says the SM player with their 2ppm 3++ vs shooting and CC

One of the highest damage output per point in the game.

Says the Marine player with all that "free AP" and doubletap and stuff

On one of the most credible first turn charge units in the game. 22" move.

Says the Marine player with White Scars outcharging Spears in most cases

Holy crap dude. It would be like a DE list not including ravagers. Or an IG list not including command tanks.

Then why do most of the Top 5 CWE lists I've pulled up *not have them*?

Sure some people don't use them - but some people just do things to do things - it's not because it's the best move.

Is this another "I know better than all the people winning tournaments" thing? Regardless, the claim was what's seen, not what you'd autowin with because of your abilities. And what's seen is documented - Spears are not even nearly in every competitive CWE list.

Which is more likely? That the vast majority of competitive players either don't understand that Spears are OP or don't want to use them, but still win without using them, including against other players who do use them? Or that, instead of the overwhelming majority of competitive CWE players being wrong on this thing, you might be?

Who actually uses storm sheild on anything but deathwatch? Or Hq's which cant even be shot and pay more for a SS?

Company vets on bikes? Which are like...way more expensive.


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Eldar also have free AP now. AP-1 on shurikens is really good.


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to be white scars you are giving up a superdoctrine...not worth it. Ironhands > white scars.

IDK why you can't find lists using spears - literally the first list I pulled for a 1st place gt finish has a full unit of spears.

 Xenomancers wrote:

to be white scars you are giving up a superdoctrine...not worth it. Ironhands > white scars.

So "Shining Spears are OP because they can do something I traded away for something even stronger! So clearly, Spears are OP!"

Spears are still good, they're just not good enough to go toe-to-toe with the best stuff out there. Regardless of how you might twist the numbers and mangle the examples, it's easily shown, as done above, that Spears are *not* in the vast majority of CWE competitive lists.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

IDK why you can't find lists using spears - literally the first list I pulled for a 1st place gt finish has a full unit of spears.

Five random Eldar lists from across 8th Ed:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Michael-Dehoyos-1st-Overall-WargamesCon-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Nick-Nanavati-Hammer-in-the-New-Year-GT-2018-.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Sean-Nayden-1st-Overall-Battle-for-Salvation-2018.pdf - This one has Harlie Bikes
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Sadhvik-Vijay-3rd-Overall-The-LWG-Open-Winter-Warfare-2019.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Tim-Deetlefs-3rd-Overall-Beef-and-Wing-Brawl-2019-Eldar.pdf

Note that these are, intentionally, not the same 5 I sampled previously. That sure of my conclusion.

One of these 5 has the Harlie bikes in large number you said sometimes replace Spears. 0 of the 5 have Spears. 2 of them happen to have significant CC in them - but only 2 of 5. That's nowhere near the vast majority.

Spears were really, really big for a while. Their points cost mixed with Ynnari not-nerfed-enough rules were absolutely brutal (and OP). But that isn't the only "top tier" list CWE has had this edition. Most of the good CWE lists have been dakka lists.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Who actually uses storm sheild on anything but deathwatch? Or Hq's which cant even be shot and pay more for a SS?

Company vets on bikes? Which are like...way more expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldar also have free AP now. AP-1 on shurikens is really good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
to be white scars you are giving up a superdoctrine...not worth it. Ironhands > white scars.

IDK why you can't find lists using spears - literally the first list I pulled for a 1st place gt finish has a full unit of spears.

the -1 ap on shuriken only works inside 12", it also doesnt stack with the natural rending of shuriken weapons.

Anyway, people have found that its better to run master of concealemnt + expert crafters

In keeping with the least amount of changes possible to the rules as is, just by changing disengaging to CC phase, from the movement phase you force the defensive player to not shoot the attacking unit, unless they have a strat/special ability that can move the engaged unit away from the engaging unit before the shooting phase to allow targeting of the enemy unit.

This would mean counter charging with a different unit or using your engaged unit to melee, or pulling back, taking no losses(but not shooting unless armed with pistols) and doing no melee for the turn.

edit: no one should fire into melee, but that could be a special rule for certain characters to allow heavy weapons to fire into engaged units. Some sort of forgo actions to allow tank/HWP fire into melee with misses/splash damage/spillover going to friendlies. I could see CSM, Demons, GSC, 'Nids, and Guard using this strongly/ alot. Orks for a laugh/infrequently.

Honestly, Overwatch isn't horrible game design, but the product of certain game design choices. IGOUGO leaves a person out of the loop at some point, often leaving them unable to respond.

Bolt Action gets around this by having every unit having a random chance to activate that turn so rarely does one player dominates half the turn.

Battletech gets around this by having all the actions happen at the "same time" by everyone moves in the Movement Phase, everyone who wants to shoot will shoot in the Shooting Phase (with damage taking hold at the end of the Phase), etc.

But Overwatch was implemented to allow players to respond to the Charge, which is actually quite effective for many units of the game.

 Charistoph wrote:
But Overwatch was implemented to allow players to respond to the Charge, which is actually quite effective for many units of the game.

It doesn't allow units to 'respond to the charge', though, and that's the problem. In a game like Dust, Bolt Action, or Infinity the reaction system gives you the opportunity to select what action (if any) to perform in retaliation. This provides more opportunity for player interaction and counterplay.

Overwatch occurs automatically, and unless you need to pick a plasma profile or activate a stratagem there's no actual interactivity. You just roll the dice to resolve the mechanic. It might as well be a difficult terrain test.

 catbarf wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
But Overwatch was implemented to allow players to respond to the Charge, which is actually quite effective for many units of the game.

It doesn't allow units to 'respond to the charge', though, and that's the problem. In a game like Dust, Bolt Action, or Infinity the reaction system gives you the opportunity to select what action (if any) to perform in retaliation. This provides more opportunity for player interaction and counterplay.

Overwatch occurs automatically, and unless you need to pick a plasma profile or activate a stratagem there's no actual interactivity. You just roll the dice to resolve the mechanic. It might as well be a difficult terrain test.

Apparently you are going on some base assumptions.

First is that Overwatch was always prevalent, it hasn't been. For quite a few Editions the only thing to do with a Charge was wait for your opponent to move his models in. Sometimes preparing your model's pants while you wait was also something you could do. Charges were brutally powerful and close combat specialists could wipe units off the map (though, you didn't want to kill everyone on your Charge, oddly enough).

Second, that I think Overwatch is sufficient as the only reaction. I do not think that it is, but GW can be really lazy about game design.

I like the "Routing" hitting-on-6s-while-fleeing idea.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Holy crap dude. It would be like a DE list not including ravagers.

Drukhari can be perfectly fine without ravagers, just take 3 flyers instead and you've got basically the same result.

But also armies that are focussed on coven and/or wych cult units could do very well in the right hands. A kabal detachment is not mandatory.

I don't hate overwatch, I do think it should be something like

player 1 declares all charges.
player 2 declares overwatch where they choose which units they will be shooting at hitting on 6's. can split fire like in regular squads but only at things charging them.
player 1 makes charge rolls

and at the end of combat everybody stays in combat because fleeing combat should not be a thing that happens. maybe add an option where they can declare the unit destroyed or ran and pull the models from the table but this ever falling back screen play is so annoying