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Insectum7 wrote: But again, Overwatch puts a mechanic against declaring charges against everything, and is therefore good.
Fall Back and Lockdown are the points of error, I think.
While I agree there should be some penalty for declaring a massive multicharge, or some incentive to stick to one target, I don't think Overwatch in its current form is good.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Insectum7 wrote: But again, Overwatch puts a mechanic against declaring charges against everything, and is therefore good.
Fall Back and Lockdown are the points of error, I think.
While I agree there should be some penalty for declaring a massive multicharge, or some incentive to stick to one target, I don't think Overwatch in its current form is good.
Ok, so given that it does serve a mechanical purpose, how would you change Overwatch?
Why should your guns fire faster just because you have people running at you? Not to mention, take something like a Mordian (I think) Baneblade, with sponsons. It hits on a 5+ in Overwatch. (Which can be better than its normal BS, if it's bracketed enough.) But, it has...
JNAProductions wrote: Why should your guns fire faster just because you have people running at you? Not to mention, take something like a Mordian (I think) Baneblade, with sponsons. It hits on a 5+ in Overwatch. (Which can be better than its normal BS, if it's bracketed enough.) But, it has...
14.40 GEQs 9.48 MEQs (with a lot of it being multiple damage, so even Primaris won't help a ton)
So it can quite realistically wipe an entire charging squad. And if you charge another squad? They can get wiped too.
Agreed. Prehaps this thread ahould be renamed "overwatch is unbalenced game design and needs adjustments"
Personally, I would be in favor of either a small change like "Can only be fired once per unit per turn" or a full rework such as "unit may fire at full ballistic skill at charging enemy if they did not fire in the previous turn."
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JNAProductions wrote: Why should your guns fire faster just because you have people running at you?
There's a few things going on. I believe 6's to hit represents that it's difficult to get those extra shots off. A normal firing phase is disciplined fire and overwatch is a few extra rounds snapped off in a panicked situation. There's also plenty of room for more rounds when the ---- is hitting the fan. Like listen to any combat footage and you'll see that units can raise the level of fire output when they need to.
Overwatch isn't anywhere equivalent to a bonus firing phase, thats why 6's.
JNAProductions wrote: Why should your guns fire faster just because you have people running at you?
There's a few things going on. I believe 6's to hit represents that it's difficult to get those extra shots off. A normal firing phase is disciplined fire and overwatch is a few extra rounds snapped off in a panicked situation. There's also plenty of room for more rounds when the ---- is hitting the fan. Like listen to any combat footage and you'll see that units can raise the level of fire output when they need to.
Overwatch isn't anywhere equivalent to a bonus firing phase, thats why 6's.
Mordians + defensive gunners says otherwise. Iron hand + Optimal Repulsion Doctrines or T'au + For the Greater Good get pretty close as well, and that's before the ease of access to rerolls.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I always felt that overwatch should be better (like -2 to hit instead of flat 6s) BUT eat that unit's next shooting phase. As in they aren't able to shoot the next turn. Doing that would create a situation where weapons don't magically gain extra ammunition & firing rate when enemies look at them funny and having a charging unit shot to death on overwatch still provides a benefit to the owning player, while also offering interesting tactical options where the unit that overwatched can now advance since its shooting is already gone regardless.
I think that's the wrong representation of what's happening. Instead of a unit full-firing multiple times and only hitting on 6's, imagine instead that a unit has limited situational awareness, and that the roll of 6 to hit represents more the fact that the defending unit is barely able to take shots beyond what they would otherwise normally be doing during their own turn. Overwatch isn't full battle rounds of concentrated fire the way that it is in the firing phase, but ad-hoc snap firing in addition to normal firing. Not much extra ammunition is being expended. An Overwatch to-hit roll isn't just a literal "to-hit", but mostly a "do I even have a chance to fire?".
That is a much better way of looking at it than mine, thank you.
JNAProductions wrote: Why should your guns fire faster just because you have people running at you?
There's a few things going on. I believe 6's to hit represents that it's difficult to get those extra shots off. A normal firing phase is disciplined fire and overwatch is a few extra rounds snapped off in a panicked situation. There's also plenty of room for more rounds when the ---- is hitting the fan. Like listen to any combat footage and you'll see that units can raise the level of fire output when they need to.
Overwatch isn't anywhere equivalent to a bonus firing phase, thats why 6's.
Mordians + defensive gunners says otherwise. Iron hand + Optimal Repulsion Doctrines or T'au + For the Greater Good get pretty close as well, and that's before the ease of access to rerolls.
I'd evaluate the viability of core mechanics separately from bonuses.
Mordians + defensive gunners says otherwise. Iron hand + Optimal Repulsion Doctrines or T'au + For the Greater Good get pretty close as well, and that's before the ease of access to rerolls.
Which also adds to the fact that overwatch is a bad rule. Why should some armys get 33% or even 50% more hits when overwatching ? Tau can compensate a bit, for having almost no melee abilites, but IH really dont need it.
Insectum7 wrote: But again, Overwatch puts a mechanic against declaring charges against everything, and is therefore good.
Killing all the human beings solves climate change instantly, therefore it's good... Or is it ?
Overwatch is a terrible mechanic because it's just a "tax" melee units have to pay in order to do they were made for. It will never dissuade anyone from charging multiples units because multiple charges in 8th do not provoke Overwatch attacks from secondary targets anyway (except from T'au and UM). Anyone with a clue simply engages secondary targets during Consolidation in order to lock them.
As it is right now, it's just a penalty for charging SINGLE units.
Overwatch should be about making choices, and forcing your opponent to make choices himself. Right now it's terrible for this.
Additionally, only a few powerful shooting units have access to shoot-twice. The damage/maneuver manipulation ability of fight-twice is often higher. The top performer for shoot-twice I can think of is Obliterators. Powerfull CC units can do better with fight-twice.
Orks have two stratagems that allow them to fire twice. One is bad moons only, and the other one is restricted to walkers and big meks. But in practise you can have 15 lootas/tankbustas and a naut/SSAG big mek shooting twice for 4 CPs. It's more than the average to instant kill a knight, especially if you combine one of these stratagems with More Dakka.
Overwatch is terrible game design that punishes even harder melee units, which are already punished enough by the prevalent shooting in this edition. I'd justify overwatch if even shooting units get some drawback when declare a target, with a rule that punishes them like units that declare an assault. Something like: when a unit selects a target, before firing its weapons roll a D6; on the result of 1 all the shooting is resolved against the firing unit or the nearest friendly one. Shots hitting on 6s like overwatch. And that wouldn't even punish shooting units like assault ones since it would be activated only on the bad roll of the D6 while overwatch is automatic and can be resolved more than a time per unit. How does it sound?
I really miss some 3rd or 5th edition mechanics, when nonsense like overwatch didn't exist. I do prefer the roll for deciding if a charge is successful or not rather than making the charge automatic but with a shoter range like it used to be in those old editions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/08 09:30:43
Insectum7 wrote: But again, Overwatch puts a mechanic against declaring charges against everything, and is therefore good.
Killing all the human beings solves climate change instantly, therefore it's good... Or is it ?
Overwatch is a terrible mechanic because it's just a "tax" melee units have to pay in order to do they were made for. It will never dissuade anyone from charging multiples units because multiple charges in 8th do not provoke Overwatch attacks from secondary targets anyway (except from T'au and UM). Anyone with a clue simply engages secondary targets during Consolidation in order to lock them.
As it is right now, it's just a penalty for charging SINGLE units.
Overwatch should be about making choices, and forcing your opponent to make choices himself. Right now it's terrible for this.
Where are you seeing that multiple charges don't provoke overwatch? The core rules say each target of the charge gets to make an overwatch attack. Multi-charges are for sure punished by the current overwatch system.
Blackie wrote: I do prefer the roll for deciding if a charge is successful or not rather than making the charge automatic but with a shoter range like it used to be in those old editions.
One of my issues with how Overwatch is implemented (taking fire before you even roll to charge) is that you get double-punished if you fail the charge. You get shot on Overwatch without going anywhere, and then you get blasted by the entire enemy army because you're caught in the open.
I'm inclined to think a beneficial tweak might be that you only got to fire Overwatch against a successful charge. Sure, it means people would try for those 11" or 12" charges more often since there's no downside- but with a 1/12 and 1/36 chance of succeeding respectively, I don't think that would really mess with balance, and it would make melee combatants a little more threatening once they get in range. Throw in that Overwatch is always treated as being resolved from minimum range (so flamers still get to shoot) and I think it'd be a net improvement.
There were times in the past when getting into close combat was as good as game over. Now, with overwatch it's not a 'simple' case of just running in and murdering the squad. Races like Tau can now punish people for attempting to charge them, it's no different than in the World War I and prior wars when gun lines were prepared to repel the advance of such things as horses and such.
It makes having a close combat murder force kinda not a great plan.
There were times in the past when getting into close combat was as good as game over. Now, with overwatch it's not a 'simple' case of just running in and murdering the squad. Races like Tau can now punish people for attempting to charge them, it's no different than in the World War I and prior wars when gun lines were prepared to repel the advance of such things as horses and such.
It makes having a close combat murder force kinda not a great plan.
But this isn't an earlier edition. You can walk out of close combat with no penalties for other units (and sometimes, little to no penalties for the unit leaving combat too!), and shooting is in general more dominant than close combat.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
There were times in the past when getting into close combat was as good as game over. Now, with overwatch it's not a 'simple' case of just running in and murdering the squad. Races like Tau can now punish people for attempting to charge them, it's no different than in the World War I and prior wars when gun lines were prepared to repel the advance of such things as horses and such.
It makes having a close combat murder force kinda not a great plan.
But this isn't an earlier edition. You can walk out of close combat with no penalties for other units (and sometimes, little to no penalties for the unit leaving combat too!), and shooting is in general more dominant than close combat.
Was about to say this. Fall back prevents game over from melee. Overwatch isn’t going to stop slugga boyz from declaring a charge. What else are they going to do anyway?
Imo the game would be better off without overwatch, and I’m a tau player. Ranged units had their chance to shoot in their turn, they shouldn’t get another in the opponents turn.
units should get a chance to forego shooting n the shooting phase to stand ready to fire overwatch at a -1 or unaffected BS when enemy units come into line of sight and range of weaponry, not only when being charged
so for example if a unit only moves within 30inches of an intercessor on overwatch then that unit can be fired upon by said intercessor and all other models armed with weapons in that intercessor's unit as the enemy unit comes further into field.
If advancing and then charging into a unit on overwatch, all overwatch models can fire according to the range of the weapon. For example, if an enemy unit fails a charge by 3", then overwatching weapons with range 3+" can attempt to fire overwatch.
But, the idea is that it costs a shooting phase to be on overwatch, and overwatching models get a chance to shoot according to normal shooting and targeting rules.
Different rules about how this is handled can be faction specific.
In older editions, I liked the idea of bonus attacks on the charge being a general mechanic. So, some guard units might be really good at withholding fire until they see the whites of their eyes so to speak, some fusillade rule or something...
and such an ability might be considered a hard counter to charge dedicated units, not unlike such units are used now bubble wrap and all that. more realistically, the strength of a guard unit is massed fire and following orders. makes sense...
anyways, each unit shoots once per turn.
just as each unit should fight melee once per turn.
note that shooting and charging makes those turns in which units can both shot and charge very important,
because when this is the case then units effectively double.
overwatch in the way that i am describing it
should be a rock to the first turn charge scissors.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/08 21:40:47
There were times in the past when getting into close combat was as good as game over. Now, with overwatch it's not a 'simple' case of just running in and murdering the squad. Races like Tau can now punish people for attempting to charge them, it's no different than in the World War I and prior wars when gun lines were prepared to repel the advance of such things as horses and such.
It makes having a close combat murder force kinda not a great plan.
But this isn't an earlier edition. You can walk out of close combat with no penalties for other units (and sometimes, little to no penalties for the unit leaving combat too!), and shooting is in general more dominant than close combat.
Was about to say this. Fall back prevents game over from melee. Overwatch isn’t going to stop slugga boyz from declaring a charge. What else are they going to do anyway?
Imo the game would be better off without overwatch, and I’m a tau player. Ranged units had their chance to shoot in their turn, they shouldn’t get another in the opponents turn.
But Overwatch WILL stop them from declaring a charge against 6 units, three of whom might be sitting at 10+ inches.
There were times in the past when getting into close combat was as good as game over. Now, with overwatch it's not a 'simple' case of just running in and murdering the squad. Races like Tau can now punish people for attempting to charge them, it's no different than in the World War I and prior wars when gun lines were prepared to repel the advance of such things as horses and such.
It makes having a close combat murder force kinda not a great plan.
But this isn't an earlier edition. You can walk out of close combat with no penalties for other units (and sometimes, little to no penalties for the unit leaving combat too!), and shooting is in general more dominant than close combat.
Then the issue seems to be the Fall Back mechanic, less so the Overwatch mechanic.
The idea of Shooting being more dominant than Assaults is actually not really relevant to the mechanics themselves, as the armies and terrain will have a huge effect on the dominance of either. (As They Should)
Insectum7 wrote: Additionally, only a few powerful shooting units have access to shoot-twice. The damage/maneuver manipulation ability of fight-twice is often higher. The top performer for shoot-twice I can think of is Obliterators. Powerfull CC units can do better with fight-twice.
Orks have two stratagems that allow them to fire twice. One is bad moons only, and the other one is restricted to walkers and big meks. But in practise you can have 15 lootas/tankbustas and a naut/SSAG big mek shooting twice for 4 CPs. It's more than the average to instant kill a knight, especially if you combine one of these stratagems with More Dakka.
I'd be interested to know the numbers on those. Unfortunately I rarely see them and I'm really not familiar with them.
Blackie wrote: Overwatch is terrible game design that punishes even harder melee units, which are already punished enough by the prevalent shooting in this edition.
The problem is that you can easily change that circumstance with different armies and different terrain. Any "imbalance" of Shooting vs. Assault is built out of too many variables to then claim it's the fault of Overwatch. And Overwatch has a purpose mechanically, which is to cut down on frivolous charging.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I agree with Insectum (wow that's twice in the last week. Probably need to get some lottery numbers). Fall Back is the core problem here.
Either buy lottery tickets or find a fallout shelter. Maybe hedge your bets and do both!
units should get a chance to forego shooting n the shooting phase to stand ready to fire overwatch at a -1 or unaffected BS when enemy units come into line of sight and range of weaponry, not only when being charged
so for example if a unit only moves within 30inches of an intercessor on overwatch then that unit can be fired upon by said intercessor and all other models armed with weapons in that intercessor's unit as the enemy unit comes further into field.
If advancing and then charging into a unit on overwatch, all overwatch models can fire according to the range of the weapon. For example, if an enemy unit fails a charge by 3", then overwatching weapons with range 3+" can attempt to fire overwatch.
But, the idea is that it costs a shooting phase to be on overwatch, and overwatching models get a chance to shoot according to normal shooting and targeting rules.
Different rules about how this is handled can be faction specific.
In older editions, I liked the idea of bonus attacks on the charge being a general mechanic. So, some guard units might be really good at withholding fire until they see the whites of their eyes so to speak, some fusillade rule or something...
and such an ability might be considered a hard counter to charge dedicated units, not unlike such units are used now bubble wrap and all that. more realistically, the strength of a guard unit is massed fire and following orders. makes sense...
anyways, each unit shoots once per turn.
just as each unit should fight melee once per turn.
note that shooting and charging makes those turns in which units can both shot and charge very important,
because when this is the case then units effectively double.
overwatch in the way that i am describing it
should be a rock to the first turn charge scissors.
I get that you're trying to rebuild 2nd Ed style overwatch. (which I used to abuse the **** out of, back in the day). But I think the issue with it is it makes games a little less fluid. It's a cool mechanic but I felt that armies wound up taking fewer broad-stroke actions because of it. My army oftentimes barely moved in 2nd. Like I don't think it's a bad mechanic, but I think 40K moved away from it for a reason. It'd be interesting to try with modern 40K though.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/08 23:20:51
But Overwatch WILL stop them from declaring a charge against 6 units, three of whom might be sitting at 10+ inches.
I’m not seeing why that’s important or necessary. If units are that close together then consolidation would let them tag who they want anyway.
Regardless, whatever merits overwatch might have, I don’t enjoy it. It costs nothing and can be devastating on occasion. If you want to keep it, it needs to cost the defending player something, like not being able to fight or fall back or whatever.
But Overwatch WILL stop them from declaring a charge against 6 units, three of whom might be sitting at 10+ inches.
I’m not seeing why that’s important or necessary. If units are that close together then consolidation would let them tag who they want anyway.
But not attack them, while the defender fights back. Declaring the charge allows you to attack more units.
And? The unit doesn’t get more attacks, and they also then have to deal with all 6 units swinging back. The biggest win is just tagging many units to force them to fall back and not shoot. It just seems like you’re preventing a mild edge case scenario with a mechanic that many people have expressed they don’t like.
Plus, charging tau means all 6 units get to shoot you anyway.
Gary_1986 wrote: t makes having a close combat murder force kinda not a great plan.
And so it fundamentally cripples entire armies and goes against the style and ideas of 40k.
40k is not a realistic universe; 40k weapons and strategies do not function like real life weapons and strategies. 40k should not be bound by or attempt to emulate reality except on the most basic of levels because it ceases to function.
Overwatch is a terrible rule because it reinforces the fact that there is simply no reason to ever go into close combat because there is no disadvantage to shooting, ever. It units could respond to shooting attacks like they do in Bolt Action or Battlegroup, things might be different.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/09 01:37:25
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
I do feel like a failed charge should still move. While unrealism is obviously rampant (and, as in any wargame, necessary) there is a point where it becomes so eggregious that it breaks immersion. That charging units either go all the distance or none is one of the most frequent triggers of that for me. It is silly that a unit could need a 8" charge, roll a 7 and not budge a single millimeter yet it they had just a little more momentum by rolling an 8 they would go the full distance. Have chargers move half the distance they charge directly towards the target, or something. Yeah that will leave them exposed, but that is what failed charges are supposed to do.
That couples with me second most immersion breaking thing that a unit can hit a target at maximum range, on the other side of terrain, with only their shoulder visible, and have the exact same hit chance as if they were 3" away in the open. There should be way more context-specific hit penalties in the game. Shooting through terrain? -1. Shooting through solid terrain (like ruins)? -1 and cover. Another unit between the shooter and the target? -1. Unit moved and isn't firing an assault weapon? -1. Unit moved and is firing a heavy weapon? -2. Majority of the target unit is not visible? -1. First turn? -1.
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