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Even if you have silly artifiical restrictions 3 canoness+celestine. Hey presto you have 12 elite slots. Or 2 canoness+celestine and 8. Show army list with 9+ elite slots you actually use.
If you only run 1 battalion(and frankly even 7 elite slots is tricky to fill) you have LOT bigger issues than geminie. Your army will suck anyway from the get-go and doesn't matter if geminie would be -20 pts rather than 20 pts.
tneva82 wrote: Even if you have silly artifiical restrictions 3 canoness+celestine. Hey presto you have 12 elite slots. Or 2 canoness+celestine and 8. Show army list with 9+ elite slots you actually use.
If you only run 1 battalion(and frankly even 7 elite slots is tricky to fill) you have LOT bigger issues than geminie. Your army will suck anyway from the get-go and doesn't matter if geminie would be -20 pts rather than 20 pts.
It's more relevant in Brigade + Batallion w/toys + fortification or something similar
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just threw together a example list and now I kinda want to try it...
With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/29 11:05:14
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
Yep. In 8th edition, where filling slots gives you CP, a unit not taking a slot is a drawback, not an advantage.
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
I was told they are so bad they might not even be taken were they free...Because they take elite slot that are supposedly so precious
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
Yep. In 8th edition, where filling slots gives you CP, a unit not taking a slot is a drawback, not an advantage.
elite slots don't give you much in terms of CP though...You want troops
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/29 11:27:07
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
I was told they are so bad they might not even be taken were they free...Because they take elite slot that are supposedly so precious
People wouldn't take them because in Open War/Maelstrom/ITC they make it easier for your opponent to win while not doing much of anything to help you win
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/29 11:42:33
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
I was told they are so bad they might not even be taken were they free...Because they take elite slot that are supposedly so precious
People wouldn't take them because in Open War/Maelstrom/ITC they make it easier for your opponent to win while not doing much of anything to help you win
All of those are fairly niche situations though. ITC isn't how most people play so centering a discussion in a tactics thread about it without clarifying that you're refering explicitly to an ITC rule is probably unwise and also not relevant to a lot of people. Likewise the opponent won't always have a "kill character" objective in Maelstrom.
If they don't have them chuck those Geminae down the field and get them martyred for MD, resurrect with Celestine if you have her and repeat. If they do have it hide them away in terrain. Its not rocket science.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/29 12:08:23
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
I was told they are so bad they might not even be taken were they free...Because they take elite slot that are supposedly so precious
People wouldn't take them because in Open War/Maelstrom/ITC they make it easier for your opponent to win while not doing much of anything to help you win
Like how? ITC sure but then again ITC is unofficial house rules only popular in america so whatever. In maelstrom opponent isn't likely to have that assasinate card that helps, you have easy time protecting them(seriously only eliminators have any ease killing them and even then they are limited to out of los shooting). In fact maelstrom helps them as you can easily kill them off for 2 vp yourself.
You meanwhile can use them to guard celestine, tag enemy shooters to prevent shooters...they are cheap, fast, hard to kill characters you can kill off when needed
That is a really good list, Lammia! I was surprised to see that all of that actually fit into a 2,000-points list. Tell us how it works for you!
Two points:
1.: I'm glad to see that someone else is using 2x4 Repentia. It just seems so much better than 1x8, seeing as you gain an extra MD for the death of both squads and that obviously two squads are more difficult to remove than one, e.g. through overwatch fire. But how do you think two small squads will impact the effectiveness of stratagems, be it Final Redemption, Desperate for Redemption, Holy Rage or any other stratagem?
2.: One thing I haven't seen people do, however, is outfit their BSS with a single combi-melta on the Superiors, instead of a meltagun on a regular sister. For only 1 extra point you basically gain an additional ablative wound for the melta (and an additional bolter, for what it's worth). Whenever I want cheap BSS, I just take 5 with a combi-melta on the Superior, maybe with a Simulacrum for the guaranteed chance to use a MD on them. That's what, 60/65 points?
All of those are fairly niche situations though. ITC isn't how most people play .
Um. I mean... I think that most competitive play now is basically ITC and its slight variants.
The number of players in ITC events increased by a whopping 40% this year and 30% the year before. So not only is it sort of the gold standard for competitive play, the hobby itself is also growing tremendously in participation.
But sure, there are tons of missions you can play, and not all of them are ITC missions. That being said, people like to practice FOR ITC events which makes it very likely that people will want to play them. I am a T.O. of many many events every year and can tell you that I incorportae Non-ITC missions into the ITC events I run for variety, That is the exception to the rule though.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
All of those are fairly niche situations though. ITC isn't how most people play .
Um. I mean... I think that most competitive play now is basically ITC and its slight variants.
The number of players in ITC events increased by a whopping 40% this year and 30% the year before. So not only is it sort of the gold standard for competitive play, the hobby itself is also growing tremendously in participation.
But sure, there are tons of missions you can play, and not all of them are ITC missions. That being said, people like to practice FOR ITC events which makes it very likely that people will want to play them. I am a T.O. of many many events every year and can tell you that I incorportae Non-ITC missions into the ITC events I run for variety, That is the exception to the rule though.
ITC is still only an American thing, and lately dominated by Marines because the ITC secondaries punish army builds in a pretty abusive way, and nobody denies kill secondaries as easily as Marines can.
Assuming that everybody plays ITC so we can make sweeping statements about the quality of units in this game is a deeply flawed approach.
All we're saying is be clearer when you pass judgment. "It gives up ITC secondaries easily" grounds your argument so that those of us that despise ITC and avoid playing that house rule gak can disregard your comments about the sisters as Heresy, like the Emperor fully fething intended.
And yet you agreed with my assessment of the Geminae on B&C a few weeks ago.
Neutral analysis, single Zephyrim vs a single Geminae over 10,000 simulations. No order convictions, just base rules. Also assuming Geminae are 20ppm until we see something official from GW on CA2019 vs C:AS
Same Move, WS, BS, S, T, and armor save
Geminae:
6++, improved to 4++ if within 6" of Celestine (+160 pts, restricted to being within 6" of Celestine)
+1W
+1A
A bodyguard rule of debatable benefit (+160 pts, restricted to being within 3" of Celestine)
Zephyrim:
-3PPM (+1PPM if CA2019 is accurate)
5++ without the presence of any other unit, improved to 4++ if within 6" of Celestine or a warlord with the Indomitable Belief warlord tait
May re-roll failed to-wound rolls in melee
Can deep strike
Superior may be given the ability to let friendly <Order> units (so not Celestine or Geminae) within 6" re-roll charge rolls for +5 points
In melee combat vs T4, 3+
Geminae Superiae, no Sacred Rites or Miracle dice
-54.46% chance of dealing 0 damage in combat against a MEQ
-36.7% chance of inflicting an unsaved wound
-8.24% chance of dealing two unsaved wounds
-0.6% chance of dealing three unsaved wounds
Zephyrim (not Zephyrim Superior), no Order, Miracle dice, or Sacred Rites
-48.36% chance of dealing 0 damage in combat against a MEQ
-42.47% chance of dealing an unsaved wound
-9.17% chance of dealing two unsaved wounds
-------------------
Both Geminae vs a Zephyrim and Zephyrim Superior
2 Geminae Superia
-29.49% chance of dealing 0 damage
-39.96% chance of dealing 1 unsaved wound
-23.10% chance of dealing 2 unsaved wounds
-6.73% chance of dealing 3 unsaved wounds
-1.16% chance of dealing 4 unsaved wounds
-0.13% chance of dealing 5 unsaved wounds
-0.00 chance of dealing 6 unsaved wounds
Zephyrim + Zephyrim Superior
-15.17% chance of dealing 0 wounds
-35.52% chance of dealing 1 unsaved wound
-31.27% chance of dealing 2 unsaved wounds
-14.26% chance of dealing 3 unsaved wounds
-02.96% chance of dealing 4 unsaved wounds
-00.28% chance of dealing 5 unsaved wounds
Incapable of dealing 6 due to not enough attacks (without Rites, conviction, etc)
Two Zephyrim look superior to taking either or both Geminae. Sure, you might be able to bring one back if they stay within 3" of Celestine and they can protect her on a 2+, but Zephyrim are more survivable on their own than Geminae are, shoehorning them to Celestine for their 4++ and bringing back the other problems Geminae have:
* their inability to advance at the same pace as Celestine (and visa versa), forcing one or the other to move slower than you'd like to keep within 3/6" for various other rules
* their inability to charge with Celestine, meaning they might charge something they need her support with OR Celestine charging something she needs their support with as chaff
* the fact that if one uses Miracle dice in a phase, the other can't use them in the same phase (assuming we can actually use more than one die
People want them to be part of her unit because it removes most of the problems with the models for being her "bodyguards".
* You can just assign wounds to them
* Healing tears can bring one back after both are dead (it can't even do that now)
* They charge together
* They advance together
* They fight together
* They perform AoF together
* They had character status before, both in 7E and in the Index
The "benefits" of them being a separate unit (leadership because with penalties it's possible to make the unit take a test, independence) don't exist when they're functionally worse than Zeraphim before you even consider Sacred Rites and Order Convictions, the latter of which Geminae don't have access to.
As for not taking them, even if they're free, the argument against them is opportunity costs:
Opportunity cost. That 40 points could be going to pretty much anything else, even a bare bones Battle Sister squad. At 32 points, if CA2019 is accurate, the points could be going toward a different character that buffs multiple units or just beefing up a unit or three in terms of model count/wargear.
Quite honestly? Given their current state I'm not even certain I'd take Geminae if they were free. I'd think about it for a moment, but then realize it's more ways for my opponent to get VP in a competitive situation/a squad that really isn't going to be doing anything but dying if they're successful in protecting Celestine and I want my models to actually feel useful beyond chaff
Oh, and before anyone brings up distraction-fexes when talking about the Geminae (because my gut says someone will), there's a difference:
Distraction Carnifexes are still a threat on their own, but meant to pull you away from the real threat. The Wonder Twins were really only a threat while they benefited from being in the same unit as Celestine
TL;DR, Geminae were gutted the moment they were pulled from being in the same unit as Celestine. If GW returned them to her unit, I'd seriously consider taking them provided I had the 32/40 points to spare because the opportunity cost would be worth the investment.
All of those are fairly niche situations though. ITC isn't how most people play .
Um. I mean... I think that most competitive play now is basically ITC and its slight variants.
The number of players in ITC events increased by a whopping 40% this year and 30% the year before. So not only is it sort of the gold standard for competitive play, the hobby itself is also growing tremendously in participation.
But sure, there are tons of missions you can play, and not all of them are ITC missions. That being said, people like to practice FOR ITC events which makes it very likely that people will want to play them. I am a T.O. of many many events every year and can tell you that I incorportae Non-ITC missions into the ITC events I run for variety, That is the exception to the rule though.
ITC is still only an American thing, and lately dominated by Marines because the ITC secondaries punish army builds in a pretty abusive way, and nobody denies kill secondaries as easily as Marines can.
Assuming that everybody plays ITC so we can make sweeping statements about the quality of units in this game is a deeply flawed approach.
All we're saying is be clearer when you pass judgment. "It gives up ITC secondaries easily" grounds your argument so that those of us that despise ITC and avoid playing that house rule gak can disregard your comments about the sisters as Heresy, like the Emperor fully fething intended.
The vast majority of competitive players are ITCish. Americans are doing the ITC thing, tis true.
I don't really see the Marines dominating BECAUSE it's the ITC. That's just not accurate. They are dominating because they are dominant.
Marine armies are clearing tables. So no matter the version you play, hard to hold an objective in a book mission when you're mostly dead and cut off.
Just saying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/29 17:09:11
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
All of those are fairly niche situations though. ITC isn't how most people play .
Um. I mean... I think that most competitive play now is basically ITC and its slight variants.
The number of players in ITC events increased by a whopping 40% this year and 30% the year before. So not only is it sort of the gold standard for competitive play, the hobby itself is also growing tremendously in participation.
But sure, there are tons of missions you can play, and not all of them are ITC missions. That being said, people like to practice FOR ITC events which makes it very likely that people will want to play them. I am a T.O. of many many events every year and can tell you that I incorportae Non-ITC missions into the ITC events I run for variety, That is the exception to the rule though.
Right. America is only place in the world where competive games happen. All games in uk are just casual open games. No competive game in sight.
Lol. Then again this from guy who thinks flayed ones(using illegal things) and deathmarks pre ca were awesome units. Credibility: zero.
*shrug* If they won't let me play my Sisters list because "rule of three, yo!" and I only have one generic and no named characters that aren't tied to a different order, then frankly the tournament is trash, the tournament organizer is a trash-tier human being, and I have no desire to participate in their trashy tournament.
But you know, this isn't a new problem, considering it's a problem that Mechanicus faced for a while, too, so if you haven't adjusted your rules yet you're a disgrace of a tournament organizer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/29 23:14:21
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
That’s pretty excessive. They’re following rules that are suggested for tournament play-if you don’t like them, don’t play in them, but don’t call others trash for that.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
No it's not. If you're the one putting rules out for your tournament, you have every right to adjust the rules when the rules prove themselves to be stupid. Stubbornly refusing to do so and saying "them's the rules, yo" puts you on the same level as Home-Owner's Association muttering "it's the rules" after they fine the gak out of an old man for not being able to mow his lawn fast enough. Your rules need to be flexible and well thought out, not just shove the first ruleset you see and then shove your head in to the sand shouting "nanananana I can't hear you".
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
You might be right if the limitation made your faction unplayable, but it doesn't even come close. Three Canonesses is enough for either a Bridage or a Battalion and 1 HQ detachment. That doesn't even take not account there is a second generic HQ available to you, even if you don't want to use it.
Therefore, leaving the Rule of 3 in Place for a 2K Tournament doesn't make them trash. It just means you want them to cater their tournament rules to your specific army list. Not to be mean, but that reflects worst on you then them.
The second generic Adepta Sororitas being what, exactly? I'm pretty sure the ones listed aside from the Canoness-- Celestine, Judith, and the Triumph-- are all one per army to my knowledge.
And yes, I want them to be able to adapt to different circumstances. My future 2k list has no problems meeting those requirements (having a Brigade as the sole detachment), but the requirements are really dumb when you hold it as some kind of unbendable, inflexible, inviolable law.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/29 23:46:26
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Which makes the blind, inflexible following of "rule of 3" even more ridiculous, yes?
Good, I'm glad we're in agreement on that.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I’m not saying it’s a good rule-but insulting others for using rules provided to them is not a good attitude to have.
You’re free to run your own tournament without the rule of three or with a modified version of it, but if you keep the same attitude, I doubt anyone would enjoy it no matter how good your houserules are.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
No it's not. If you're the one putting rules out for your tournament, you have every right to adjust the rules when the rules prove themselves to be stupid. Stubbornly refusing to do so and saying "them's the rules, yo" puts you on the same level as Home-Owner's Association muttering "it's the rules" after they fine the gak out of an old man for not being able to mow his lawn fast enough. Your rules need to be flexible and well thought out, not just shove the first ruleset you see and then shove your head in to the sand shouting "nanananana I can't hear you".
I usually don’t chime in on these discussions, but the ITC tournament rules are pretty much a worldwide set of rules played by literally thousands. Even non-ITC tournaments use them to a great degree because of their fairness and ease of use. Most competitive tournaments in the US and now UK use the ITC rules.
JNAProductions wrote: I’m not saying it’s a good rule-but insulting others for using rules provided to them is not a good attitude to have.
An explicitly optional suggestion which is designed as a clunky tool in order to fix the problem of certain kinds of powergaming, but when applied without second thought, hinders a lot of creativity in otherwise non-powergaming lists. And furthermore does not cope well in many army lists where the selection of units are quite limited (Sisters for example would only ever be able to have six fast attack units, period, for example). It was a quickfix, and a quickfix that GW no longer even really pushes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 00:01:05
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
If you prefer, I can use the terms "uncreative", "lazy", "dull", "slovenly"... either way, it's a dumb mindset.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ironically enough it's not my Sisters list that the rule would hinder, but my BA list. Because apparently my terminators are so overpowered that I can't be allowed to have an army focused around them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 00:09:28
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: The second generic Adepta Sororitas being what, exactly? I'm pretty sure the ones listed aside from the Canoness-- Celestine, Judith, and the Triumph-- are all one per army to my knowledge.
And yes, I want them to be able to adapt to different circumstances. My future 2k list has no problems meeting those requirements (having a Brigade as the sole detachment), but the requirements are really dumb when you hold it as some kind of unbendable, inflexible, inviolable law.
Your choice to not use Missionaries in your army, a valid choice for an Adepta Sororitas detachment, is not the tournament organizers problem any more than a Durkari player who only want to play exclusively one aspect of their army. That also leave them with one generic HQ choice.
Your thematic choices within the confines of your Codex should not dictate the rules for a tournament.
