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yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.

I mean it's valid, but I've seen errors in military documents and they have a budget far and beyond what GW dreams it could have. I've seen professionally published novels by big name authors with spelling errors. This stuff happens even with proofreaders, editors, and budgets far larger thrown at projects than GW allocates to their dev teams.

So yes, complaining is valid, but so is pointing out that it's not really as uncommon for mistakes to slip into nearly every work.

Not like this. These are technical mistakes in technical documents. I draft technical documents for a living (for an organization with far fewer resources than GW has). I wouldn't still have a job if I kept putting out crap this riddled with substantive errors.

We aren't talking a missing or doubled preposition here. These aren't typos. They're substantive errors, caused by a lack of proper, professional proofreading. These errors don't slip through a decent proofreading process, at least not more than once in a blue moon. That they keep slipping through in document after document shows that GW is not meeting basic professional standards. If I had to guess, the basic problem is that the people doing the proofreading don't actually understand the content they are proofreading - so they catch typos, but not substantive errors. This is a common mistake organizations that aren't used to doing technical proofreading make, the sort of thing that you can forgive when it's five dudes in their grandma's basement, but not when it's a multinational company worth billions.

The old US Army PT regulation has a paragraph about wearing knee high socks to prevent shin splints. Trust me when I say GW is not special and people need to stop pretending that they're somehow a unique example of this kind of thing.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.

I mean it's valid, but I've seen errors in military documents and they have a budget far and beyond what GW dreams it could have. I've seen professionally published novels by big name authors with spelling errors. This stuff happens even with proofreaders, editors, and budgets far larger thrown at projects than GW allocates to their dev teams.

So yes, complaining is valid, but so is pointing out that it's not really as uncommon for mistakes to slip into nearly every work.

Not like this. These are technical mistakes in technical documents. I draft technical documents for a living (for an organization with far fewer resources than GW has). I wouldn't still have a job if I kept putting out crap this riddled with substantive errors.

We aren't talking a missing or doubled preposition here. These aren't typos. They're substantive errors, caused by a lack of proper, professional proofreading. These errors don't slip through a decent proofreading process, at least not more than once in a blue moon. That they keep slipping through in document after document shows that GW is not meeting basic professional standards. If I had to guess, the basic problem is that the people doing the proofreading don't actually understand the content they are proofreading - so they catch typos, but not substantive errors. This is a common mistake organizations that aren't used to doing technical proofreading make, the sort of thing that you can forgive when it's five dudes in their grandma's basement, but not when it's a multinational company worth billions.

The old US Army PT regulation has a paragraph about wearing knee high socks to prevent shin splints. Trust me when I say GW is not special and people need to stop pretending that they're somehow a unique example of this kind of thing.

Not for nothing but that isn't arguing GW is fine, that's arguing the Army is inept.

ERJAK wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.

I mean it's valid, but I've seen errors in military documents and they have a budget far and beyond what GW dreams it could have. I've seen professionally published novels by big name authors with spelling errors. This stuff happens even with proofreaders, editors, and budgets far larger thrown at projects than GW allocates to their dev teams.

So yes, complaining is valid, but so is pointing out that it's not really as uncommon for mistakes to slip into nearly every work.

Not like this. These are technical mistakes in technical documents. I draft technical documents for a living (for an organization with far fewer resources than GW has). I wouldn't still have a job if I kept putting out crap this riddled with substantive errors.

We aren't talking a missing or doubled preposition here. These aren't typos. They're substantive errors, caused by a lack of proper, professional proofreading. These errors don't slip through a decent proofreading process, at least not more than once in a blue moon. That they keep slipping through in document after document shows that GW is not meeting basic professional standards. If I had to guess, the basic problem is that the people doing the proofreading don't actually understand the content they are proofreading - so they catch typos, but not substantive errors. This is a common mistake organizations that aren't used to doing technical proofreading make, the sort of thing that you can forgive when it's five dudes in their grandma's basement, but not when it's a multinational company worth billions.

The old US Army PT regulation has a paragraph about wearing knee high socks to prevent shin splints. Trust me when I say GW is not special and people need to stop pretending that they're somehow a unique example of this kind of thing.

Not for nothing but that isn't arguing GW is fine, that's arguing the Army is inept.

I'm not saying GW is "fine", I'm saying GW is not some special snowflake of screwing up things that shouldn't get screwed up and people are blowing it way out of proportion. I swear GW could miss a period somewhere and people would write a hundred page thread about GW being intentionally bad at grammar.

You're arguing a ridiculous straw man ("GW is the only organization that makes errors in its documents") against someone who literally does this for a living and is telling you you are wrong, these errors are very much preventable, saying to "just trust you," because you know better because you were in the army. I'm not sure further useful conversation can be had here.

yukishiro1 wrote:
You're arguing a ridiculous straw man ("GW is the only organization that makes errors in its documents") against someone who literally does this for a living and is telling you you are wrong, these errors are very much preventable, saying to "just trust you," because you know better because you were in the army. I'm not sure further useful conversation can be had here.

It's not much of a strawman when people on this very site claim that GW is somehow above and beyond all other companies in terms of errors. I'm not creating the strawman, I'm arguing that the strawman that GW is somehow "too big" to make mistakes is wrong. We recognize the problems, let's move on to the actual topic of how to play the army. Seriously, if you want a salt thread, 40k General is a better spot for it.

Of course GW isn't too big to make mistakes. Nobody is too big to make mistakes. Making mistakes comes from a lack of process, not size. The reason GW's size is relevant is because it clearly has the resources to avoid making these mistakes if it cared enough. It's not five guys in grandma's basement who can't afford a technical proofreader.

Technical errors of this sort do not make it through competent technical proofreading.

Serious errors in the codex we're talking about is on topic. If you don't want to engage, just don't engage. Trying to dismiss it as just "salt" shows you are the one who is trying to derail the conversation.

Sisters of Battle players:

"I need plastic models. I need my Exorcist to shoot out of line of sight. I need a jump pack canoness. I need 'terminator' tier sisters. Dominions not getting the move in a transport should have never been done."

GW:

"Your prayers have been answered."

Sisters players:

"That's not good enough. The models don't look like I WANTED them to look. My Exorcist has been balanced for having access to potent rules. Celestine deep striking is not a Jump Canoness. Sacrosancts ONLY have 1W. Anti-tank weapons destroy 'vehicle' class paragons. I can't out-aggro Drukharu/Mechanicus. Your book has typos. But here's my money..."

Like this has to be the most spoiled player base... or the most oblivious one. The amount of desired stuff given to this community, like DIRECTLY ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED and then to receive it so gracelessly. Just, unbelievable.

See, that is an example of an actual off topic "salt" post: just a random rant full of personal attacks towards anyone who the poster disagrees with.

Please try to stay on topic. We're talking about the new book here, not about your feelings towards people who have a different opinion on the new book than you do.

Hit too close to home? I figured while we're ranting on things like hiring proofreaders and cancelling typos we could revisit what has actually been delivered to this player base over the past 18 months. It is much more on topic than any of the vitriol coming from the same old people who make me wonder why they even play this faction if it is so terrible.

No, personal attacks on other posters are never on topic, as clearly stated in the thread on forum rules. If you can't resist the temptation to personally attack people who you disagree with ("spoiled," "graceless" "oblivious", etc), please don't post at all; all it does is pull threads off topic and create an unpleasant environment.

In the interest of not derailing things further, I'll get off the soapbox now; whether you take the point to heart is up to you, and if you're not going to, repeating it probably won't get anywhere.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Sisters of Battle players:

"I need plastic models. I need my Exorcist to shoot out of line of sight. I need a jump pack canoness. I need 'terminator' tier sisters. Dominions not getting the move in a transport should have never been done."

GW:

"Your prayers have been answered."

Sisters players:

"That's not good enough. The models don't look like I WANTED them to look. My Exorcist has been balanced for having access to potent rules. Celestine deep striking is not a Jump Canoness. Sacrosancts ONLY have 1W. Anti-tank weapons destroy 'vehicle' class paragons. I can't out-aggro Drukharu/Mechanicus. Your book has typos. But here's my money..."

Like this has to be the most spoiled player base... or the most oblivious one. The amount of desired stuff given to this community, like DIRECTLY ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED and then to receive it so gracelessly. Just, unbelievable.

I hope this post is just an extremely bad joke, because it shouldn't even be possible to be that much of a Games Workshop fanboy completely detached from any reason and reality to believe even just half of that nonsense(in which fething Twilight Zone is the Exorcist balanced now, what funny stuff needs someone to smoke to call Celestine especially the new one a Jump Pack Canoness, what the hell have plastic models to do with the new codex, etc...), hell this would be even in a Space Marines thread just delusional.

Tanks in general are bad this edition. Honestly we probably just need a lot of people to email the 40k FAQ email complaining about how fragile tanks are and hope GW gives them a mid edition buff at this point like they did Marines.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Sisters of Battle players:

"I need plastic models. I need my Exorcist to shoot out of line of sight. I need a jump pack canoness. I need 'terminator' tier sisters. Dominions not getting the move in a transport should have never been done."

GW:

"Your prayers have been answered."

Sisters players:

"That's not good enough. The models don't look like I WANTED them to look. My Exorcist has been balanced for having access to potent rules. Celestine deep striking is not a Jump Canoness. Sacrosancts ONLY have 1W. Anti-tank weapons destroy 'vehicle' class paragons. I can't out-aggro Drukharu/Mechanicus. Your book has typos. But here's my money..."

Like this has to be the most spoiled player base... or the most oblivious one. The amount of desired stuff given to this community, like DIRECTLY ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED and then to receive it so gracelessly. Just, unbelievable.

Except that isn't good enough.
An exorcist getting indirect fire via a strat isn't indirect fire.
Celestine isn't a canoness.
I don't recall anyone complaning about sacrosancts only having one wound, at least not with any community support.
Anti-tank weapons do destroy paragons, at least on paper.
Less about out aggroing, and more about so much stuff getting dunked with the new codex. Stuff that was a major part, but not really a broken aspect.

It's less about people being spoiled, and more about people trivializing legitimate complaints. I have issues with the BSS weapon alotment changes. Because it was characterful. It made the sisters seem like a faction that had access to the resources for that sort of weapons deployment.

And to bring it back again, stuff people asked for WAS NOT RECEIVED.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Just, unbelievable.

Tanks are bad in 9th, but they went out of their way to make the exorcist worse, which is just weird. It feels like they couldn't decide whether to make it artillery or not and ended up creating a frankenstein's monster that isn't good at either role.

And that's the crux of the problem. 8th Codex is one of the best. Partially to do with the Imperium arsenal upgrade to kick off 9th, partially to do with it was just a pretty solid book overall with some outliers that were being pushed up another rung.

"Except, that isn't good enough."

There's a lot of really good things in the codex, but man, the sentiment is that GW took a huge steaming dump in the middle of our living rooms, lol. I happen to be the masochist that plays both Eldar and Sisters, and have for quite a many years. My Eldar are languishing because I've been looking for something, anything, to be excited about. I look at the range trying to get inspired... and the immediate "meh" falls upon me because of how stagnant the line is for both modeling AND playing.

It is Christmas over here, and all we can do is clutch pearls and complain about how things were better in the good-old codex?

I will defend everyone on the sacrosants part, I'm the only person who's said anything down on them.

And even then I'm only saying 'I think mortal wounds is this unit's obvious weakness so I'm thinking they play best in the subfactions that have access to defence against mortals.'

So with the rules floating out in the ether I've started looking at how to tackle playing the army, and decided to take a deep dive into the book and think about the roles of the different parts of the book and how those things could be used. So less a tiered ranking and more of "how can this be best used" thing to get a feel for each order leans, as well as a look at blessings, warlord traits, hymns, relics, and sacred rites to get a better idea how to lay a foundation for our armies going forward.
 
Order Convictions
Order of Our Martyred Lady: Pairs best with mechanized Sisters carrying 10 model units to gain miracle dice from losing the transports and have enough models to be able to better gain their +1 to hit bonus (sadly this is probably the worst conviction if you like setting heretics on fire due to how it buffs to-hit rolls exclusively). There is some argument for large bricks of Battle Sisters as well but either way it's encouraged to run a lot of characters to better use their unique stratagem and gain extra Miracle Dice over the course of the game. One of the stronger orders for the new Acts of Faith secondary as well. 
 
Order of the Valorous Heart: Still our strongest defensive choice. Pairs well with Paragons and Tanks thanks to the way it negates some of the perks of mid-strength AP weapons like Autocannons, but it will attract MSU builds as well since the higher defense will allow for small units to survive longer on the table. Dominions and Retributors will both enjoy benefits from the stratagem as well. All around still a solid choice for a lot of playstyles since it doesn't really push you one way or another.
 
Order of the Bloody Rose: Lends itself best to the melee units (both past and present). Lost some teeth in regards to pistols to likely balance it further, and now only smashing hard in the first turn of combat before evaporating they'll hit like glass cannons, meaning that melee will need to be planned out to prevent from losing units in poor trades. Still one of the strongest Convictions since you can clear objectives more effectively with them, but less of an autopick.
 
Order of the Ebon Chalice: A stronger choice than the last edition since you can tailor your Sacred Rites choices to your opponent, plus they can throw the most 6s out for Miracle Dice of any Order. As a bonus their Warlord trait lets you recycle your CP 1/3 of the time. Also a great choice for flamer heavy Sisters lists thanks to their stratagem that can easily tag 3 Mortal Wounds everytime you use it.
 
Order of the Argent Shroud: Do you like Retributors? Dominons? Heavy weapons? Sprinting like you're a Naruto cosplayer? This is definitely the order for you. Battle Sisters are best used in MSUs of 5 with a multi-melta to use both halves of their conviction, but it'll work with Multi-melta Retributors, Storm Bolter Dominions (counts as stationary after sprinting up close to get that rapid fire bubble). Basically the more you like to shoot the better this is. Arguably great for Castigators, Exorcists, and even Immolators, but tanks remain squishy so expect to end up trading them rather quickly.
 
Order of the Sacred Rose: Good for two things: large units and farming Miracle Dice (you basically double your Miracle dice over the course of the game), and ignoring Combat Attrition means taking large units for taking over objectives more easily fit well together. Provides the least to MSU units and tanks directly (other than the extra Miracle Dice), this is a strong pick if you want to use the Acts of Faith secondary that pairs well with larger units. The warlord trait is great for recycling low number Miracle Dice by using them as 6s as well, but it also lets units fall back and shoot which is great for how the Conviction makes it easier to step back from combat and stay alive. And speaking of shooting, the stratagem pairs well with massed shooting as well, which fits well with massed bolt guns, lending them well to taking large bricks of Sisters.
 
Minoris Convictions: Honestly this is where the book is the weakest. Three of the convictions are tied to the holy trinity but can't be taken together, there is no ability to recycle or gain extra Miracle Dice, and there are no Minoris Convictions that increase mobility. Heck, they didn't even bother to fill both pages. Unless you need a specific trait for a small patrol detachment to attach to your larger army (say, Rites of Fire for the +4" flamers, or Raging Fervour for counting as half range for melta weapons if they're assault and pistols (or 18" or less range for Multi Meltas). 
 
Blessings of the Faithful
Word of the Emperor: Great for melee focused armies, or just supporting a single melee unit thanks to the fight last ability, and the ability to turn off invulnerable saves for a turn is incredibly strong if you like to ask "will it blend?". Due to the short range of the abilities though this is not great for shooting heavy armies. While not making the bearer better at combat, it's a good support piece meaning this will likely show up on models like Palantines who want to be near combat, even if they're not really contributing much themselves.
 
Rapturous Blows: Do you want a Canoness who can cave a Hive Tyrant's head in like Canoness Paxedes? Well this won't quite help your Canoness do that, but she will smack things harder in melee. Paired best with a Blessed Blade (bringing you to S6, -3 AP, 3 dmg) or a chainsword (S4, AP, 2 dmg with a bonus attack). If you're using the Limited Edition (to soon be the started set Cannoness) it'll turn your power sword into a Blessed Blade, but in all other cases take the Blessed Blade instead. The Miraculious effect goes bast on anything you can stack large numbers of attacks on that has the <Order> core keyword, so Repentia can make a good escort for your Canoness. A good trait to take for a Cannoness with a more defensive relic or a ranged relic as well since this blessing can't stack with melee relics.

Divine Deliverance: Great for turning off key auras from opposing character models and that's about it. The miracle is situational since ignoring Combat Attrition is so common that forcing a single model to flee isn't particularly useful most of the time. That said, the Miracle doesn't require you to be near an enemy unit so it has situational utility at least.
 
Emperor's Grace: Great for making a defensive oriented Cannoness. Pair with the Mantle of Ophelia to never take more than 1 damage per failed save to keep your Cannoness around for a lot longer than your opponent wants. The Miraclous Ability can be great for messing with an opponent who has access to a lot of re-rolls (namely Space Marines), and can tag multiple units which makes for a great way to take some of the lethality of your opponent's army. Pair with Valorous Heart for extra defensive trolling.
 
Righteous Judgement: Boom. Headshot. Meet the sniper Cannoness. Great for picking off characters hiding behind units she can help take the buff out of the opponent's army. Consider running with a Condemnor Boltgun if you have a lot of psykers in your meta to do an easy 3 Mortal Wounds even when they're behind a screen, or the Redemption Relic so you can tag the psyker and the unit he's behind at the same time with an S8, AP-3, D2 plasma shot. It's not a lot of damage, but chip damage is always useful.
 
Blinding Radience: Another good defensive blessing. The always on effect means it's a little safer to let your Canoness or Palantine out into the open, but the miracle can be a real boon to dealing with both shooting and melee. Honestly it's hard to recommend where to use this because the answer is basically "everywhere".
 
Warlord Traits
Inspiring Orator: great for sneaking onto a Dogmata or a Dialogus as it increases the range of their hymns and other auras. Slightly nerfed as it doesn't work on abilities (only works on abilities used in the Command Phase) that are always on, so less useful on the Cannoness.
 
Righteous Rage: full re-roll to hit and wound rolls for melee attacks are always handy for any Canoness who likes turning things into a fine paste. An autotake for any melee focused Canoness.
 
Executor of Heretics: Situational at best. Only really good when dealing with factions who can't negate combat attrition.
 
Beacon of Faith: a free command die for your warlord's personal use is great for the Acts of Faith secondary as Miracle Dice are a little harder to acquire in this codex than before, plus if you have Sacred Rose as your Conviction using it allows you to generate a new Miracle Die on a 4+ you can add to your pool.
 
Indomitable Belief: great for metas with high AP weapons running around, or for keeping your tanks alive since it means they'll ignore 1/3 of the wounds inflicted. Best on a support character who is already handing out buffs like a Dogmata or Imagifier, especially if you know AP is going to be an issue.
 
Pure of Will: the usefulness of this one will come down to how prevelant Thousand Sons and Grey Knights become in the coming months, but it can be a nice utility option to sub in on a second character via stratagem as needed. Doesn't stack with the Minoris Conviction for +3 to Deny the Witch tests though so no, we'll never have access to a 6+D6 deny attempt. 
 
Shield Bearer (Our Martyred Lady): Honestly not a bad trait. -1 damage (min) for your warlord is a great way to keep them alive, and if she's killing things you gain an automatic 6 on a Miracle Dice. Likewise she takes the OML trait of gaining Miracle dice from losing units up a notch by making them 6s as well. A real strong synergy for OML armies that means this trait will see a lot of use for anyone who prefers to run OML.
 
Impervious to Pain (Valorous Heart): Free healing a wound when you perform Acts of Faith and a 5+ FNP effect for all wounds (not just mortals like the rest of the order) means she'll be sticking around for a while. You can't stack this with the Emperor's Grace blessing so best kept on two seperate characters, but a great way to keep your Warlord around buffing your units.
 
Blazing Ire (Bloody Rose): The other melee focused warlord trait, only locked to Blood Rose. A bonus attack and being able to charge after advancing puts this one best in the hands of "Becky with the Good Blade" to have a Canoness who swings Beneficence with a minimum of 9 attacks in the first round of combat and up to 12 attacks if there are at least 6 enemy models near her when she gets stuck in (10 and 13 attacks if you have someone pop War Hymn on her as well). If you like to Rip and Tear, or just want to run keep running Becky in the current edition this is an automatic pick for Blood Rose canoness everywhere.
 
Terribly Knowledge (Ebon Chalice): Never have to suffer not having a 6 in your Miracle Dice poll at the start of the game and keeping 1/3 of your command points is incredibly handy. I wouldn't take this on my Warlord, but more likely on a support character so the warlord could have better options, but worth having in every Ebon Chalice list.
 
Selfless Heroism (Argent Shroud): 6" heroic intervention and a fight first mechanic in an army that buffs MSU shooting? Probably stick this on the Dogmata and give her the fight twice hymn (and you should be running a Dogmata in Argent Shroud since she allows you to shoot and take actions at the same time allowing you to crank your efficiency even higher) otherwise I just don't see it being used much compared to other options.
 
Light of the Divine (Sacred Rose): Allowing you to turn weak Miracle Dice into free 6s whenever your Warlord needs one is a great boon, especially since you can then get a free Miracle Dice back on a 4+ after spending that one, but the fall back and shoot is probably the strongest part of this warlord trait since it allows units like Battle Sisters to get out of combat and fight more on their own terms instead of fist fighting something like an Ork.
 
Hymns
War Hymn: Every priest model has this one for free and despite the change to only triggering it on a 3+ it's arguably improved from before now that you can use it on a unit on 6" and they keep the +1 attack until the start of your next command phase. Use it on Repentia or Celestian Sacroscants to bring them to 3 attacks base, Paragon Warsuits or Zephrym to bring them to 4 attacks base, Arco-flaggellants to bring them to 3 attacks base (which you can then multiply by 3 via strat to have them swinging with nine attacks each, take a unit of 10 and drown someone in 90 attacks), or just use it on Becky and let her get up to 13 attacks on her own. Even Morvenn Vahl appreciates the bonus attack as it brings her up to 12 attacks when sweeping with her spear (and then she can fight twice and do 12 more). Basically put a priest of some kind in every list just for this alone. You will get mileage out of it because it just helps make everything better.
 
Refrain of Blazing Piety: D3 Mortal wounds to a enemy unit within 12" and visible to the bearer (and an auto 3 to Chaos keyword models) just by rolling a 3+? We may not get psykers but this is definitely a fun one to have in your back pocket to throw around. A must take in Chaos heavy metas as well.
 
Chorus of Spiritual Fortitude: Dealing with a lot of psychic powers in your meta? Tired of being debuffed, or having your invul turned off? Congrats, now you can ignore them by rolling a single 3+! Not only that, the unit you buff with this can't be affected by any psychci powers until the start of your next command phase meaning it's a great way to shut down psyker combos aimed at your key units (doesn't work on tanks though).
 
Psalm of Righteous Smiting: Honestly I'd only recommend this one for the Dogmata since it gives +1 attack, improves the AP of melee weapons by 1 and lets you fight twice. For her that means she's attacking 4 times (5 if she's Bloody Rose and it's the first round of combat) at S5, AP-3, 1 dmg, and then she gets to swing again. Not bad if you want to smash stuff, but not great either. Hilarious if you also get a War Hymn off on her as well (bringing her to 6 attacks if she's Bloody Rose and it's the first round to combat, and letting her attack a second time), but I wouldn't use this combo for more than a bit of fun honestly.
 
Litany of Enduring Faith: +1 to your Shield of Faith save is not bad and you can stack this with Indomitable Belief to bring a unit to a 4++ Shield of Faith save. Probably going to be used most on Repentia, but if you like bricks of Sisters and aren't Valorous Heart (because VH needs to be hit with AP-3 to start feeling a real pinch) effectively negating anything over AP1 on a block of 20 Sisters this way isn't bad. Best used for something you need to really anchor an objective, or to keep your Paragon Warsuits alive.
 
Verse of Holy Piety: Bonus Sacred Rites are never bad since this lets you flex a unit as needed any direction you want. Honestly a great utility piece for TAC lists since it means you'll always have a tool in your back pocket to flex into.
 
Catechism of Repugnance: Honestly I like this one on a large brick of Sisters. If you're in rapid fire range (assuming no special weapons for easy maths) that's 40 shots, 8 of which auto-wound and AP-1 on all of the saves. You can use it in other places as well, like on Storm Bolter Dominions or Heavy Bolter Retributors, but I just really like the idea of that much holy Dakka coming out of a brick of Sisters.
 
Relics
Blade of Saint Ellynor: the Blade of Admonition has been renamed (as the original Blade of Admonition is now a Legendary Relic over in the Crusade relic where it auto hits character models and +3 S, -3 AP, and 3 dmg). Still a great weapon with +2 S, -3 AP, and 3 dmg but it can't be used with Rapturous Blows. 
 
Brazier of Eternal Flame: So I am going to take a moment here to go on record about pronunciation here: it's pronounced "brāZHər", not "brəˈzir". The former is a pan that holds coals, the later is a bra. I only mention this because of the number of reviews that kept calling it the "Brassiere of Eternal Flame" (or referencing the generic version as the "Brassiere of Holy Fire"). PSA over, there are three reasons to take this: 1. you play in a meta with a lot of Daemons; 2. you play in a meta with a lot of psykers; 3. you play in a meta with a lot of daemons and psykers (some of which are also daemons). The minus 1 to hit versus daemons and the perils to enemy Psykers who roll doubles on their psychic powers when in 18" is nice, but this is only available for a Canoness and we can only have one Canoness per detachment so it's a meta driven pick.
 
Wrath of the Emperor: It's an 18" Pistol 4 Heavy Bolter. Take it on a support character like a Dialogus, Hospitaller, or a Dogmata to give them a little extra pop pop so they can watch the heathens drop.
 
Litanies of Faith: Dropping to a one per battle round re-roll of a Miracle Dice means this one is going to sit on the shelf for most people. It's just too situational. Eligible for a Superior with the Sacred Burden stratagem which is about the only place I'd use it.
 
Mantle of Ophelia: Every want to tank a knight with a Canoness? Congrats, now you can! All attacks allocated to the bearer become Damage 1. You'll still drown under weight of dice, but heavy weapons and powerful attacks are going to hilariously bounce off.
 
Triptych of the Marcharian Crusade: Something missed in a lot of reviews is that this only goes on Sanctified or Cult Imperalis models, limiting this to the Missionary, Dialogus, Preacher, and Hospitaller. All other Sanctified and Cult Imperialis models are named characters. Knowing that, +1 toughness, a 4++ and turning the first failed save each turn to 0 damage is incredibly good for keeping these support pieces alive. Sadly the Dogmata can't take this so there goes the best relic for a Smashmata build.
 
Book of Saint Lucius: +3" to auras is basically good on anything with an aura. Basically an auto-pick.
 
Iron Surplice of Saint Istaela: Only available to Sisters of Battle models, this gives +1 wound, ignores to-wound rolls against the bearer of 1-3 and bumps the bearer up to a 2+ armour save. If you feel like running Smashmata for some reason, then stick this on her. Otherwise I'd use it on a support HQ like the Palatine if the Canoness already had the Mantle of Ophelia.
 
Ecclesiarch's Fury: available to models with a chainsword (so Missionary, Preacher, and Canoness) +2 S, -3 AP, 2 dmg isn't a bad statline, but it comes with a -1 to hit and +1 to wound means you're trading off hitting for wound rolls. Decent for since it means wounding anything below T5 on 2s, T5 on 3s, and anything up to T10 on 4s. With the 2 dmg statline it's basically a Marine killer, so might be worth considering on Becky if you're in a MEQ meta. Eligible to be used on a Superior with the Sacred Burden stratagem.
 
Redemption: 12" plasma pistol that never over heats and always fired a charged shot that can hit multiple units. Honestly it's not a bad option in most cases, but I like it best with Righteous Judgement since it lets you hit a character and their screen at the same time. Eligible to be used on a Superior with the Sacred Burden stratagem.
 
The Sigil Ecclesiasticus: Priests only (so Missionary, Preacher, Dialogus, and Dogmata), you get to know an additional Hymn and use 2 a turn (but can't use one that's been intoned already this turn. Basically an auto-include if you're just taking 1 Priest, or want one to double up some buffs.
 
Blessings of Sebastian Thor: Lets you have a unit using two Sacred Rites instead of those from your army. Eligible to be used on a Superior with the Sacred Burden stratagem which is great for buffing a single unit to have different abilities based on their load out.
 
Simulacrum Sanctorum: Imagifier only. Lets you have two tales instead of one, but you can't double up on any tale another Imagifier knows unless all three are already known. Basically an auto-include if you want just one Imagifier.
 
Chaplet of Sacrifice: Once per game an Epic Deed strat costs 0 CP, the bearer can re-roll hit rolls, and the bearer isn't removed when it's destroyed but instead gets to shoot as if it were the shooting phase or fight as if it were the fight phase at the end of the phase it was destroyed before being removed. Honestly the biggest bonus are the first two parts with the last part just being a small buff since the army doesn't have any real melee or shooting power house characters who can take this. Probably best on a Palatine or a support character you don't want to give another relic. Most cases this will save 1 CP unless you use it for Divine Intervention which costs 2CP.
 
Sacred Rites
Hand of the Emperor: +1 to advance and charge rolls means this is going to see a lot of mileage in Bloody Rose and Argent Shroud lists. It's decent in others as well, but those two get the most work out of it thanks to how they play.
 
Spirit of the Martyr: Great for melee armies like Bloody Rose, defensive armies like Valorous Heart, or just anyone who plays in a melee heavy meta. It caps at 6 mortal wounds back to the attacking unit, but anything to get some damage in while losing models is handy.
 
Aegis of the Emperor: Playing in a psychic heavy meta or just that one guy who loves smite spam? Take it and enjoy shutting their powers off 1/3 of the time, otherwise leave it at home.
 
Divine Guidance: Great for shooting heavy armies like Argent Shroud or Sacred Rose since it can help buff your AP values. Best on bolters and flamer weapon heavy lists since those are the weakest of the Holy Trinity for AP.
 
The Passion: Great for melee armies since it gives your melee attacks exploding 6s to hit.
 
Light of the Emperor: Ignoring leadership modifiers and combat attrition modifiers? Not unless Night Lords start taking over the meta I'm afraid.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Sisters of Battle players:

"I need plastic models. I need my Exorcist to shoot out of line of sight. I need a jump pack canoness. I need 'terminator' tier sisters. Dominions not getting the move in a transport should have never been done."

GW:

"Your prayers have been answered."

Sisters players:

"That's not good enough. The models don't look like I WANTED them to look. My Exorcist has been balanced for having access to potent rules. Celestine deep striking is not a Jump Canoness. Sacrosancts ONLY have 1W. Anti-tank weapons destroy 'vehicle' class paragons. I can't out-aggro Drukharu/Mechanicus. Your book has typos. But here's my money..."

Like this has to be the most spoiled player base... or the most oblivious one. The amount of desired stuff given to this community, like DIRECTLY ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED and then to receive it so gracelessly. Just, unbelievable.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Hit too close to home? I figured while we're ranting on things like hiring proofreaders and cancelling typos we could revisit what has actually been delivered to this player base over the past 18 months. It is much more on topic than any of the vitriol coming from the same old people who make me wonder why they even play this faction if it is so terrible.

You now, I'm normally fairly middle of the road but your last two posts have struck my last nerve. However, instead of throwing shade I'm going to fire back with data. Unfortunately, that data collection is going to take more time than I have at the moment so it'll be delayed a bit -- especially since I want to make sure my sources are FAQ/Errata accurate.

What I can tackle without getting too deep into numbers:

* Models not looking like some people want -- Taste is individual, that's why economic decisions and data isn't made on people's tastes but by trends. People can both be happy to finally have plastics and not like how some/all of the models look. I really don't like the look of the warsuits and Vahl and really wish they'd given us something else. Outside of "bikes", which most of you would be against, and a Flyer battlefield role unit I'm not 100% certain what that something else is. I just know it's not the warsuits.

* The Exorcist: 150 points stock isn't worth what you're paying for, especially for a unit that has to spend CP to gain the ability to ignore LoS.

Vs Hypothetical T3, 4+ or worse saves (most infantry in the game), Conflag rockets are equivalent to a Wyvern's mortars and the Wyvern is 15 points cheaper. Both are only a bit better than a Whirlwind Castellan launcher and it's 125 points and 50% more range. This is before Convictions/Regimental Doctrines/Chapter Tactics, Sacred Rites, and Combat Doctrines. Both the Wyvern and Whirlwind ignore LoS natively and to the best of my knowledge neither see much, if any, play. I also don't personally believe +1S (on the vehicle, not the weapon -- that's already included in the weapon comparisons), +1T, and Shield of Faith are worth 15 points.

180 may be worth it with LoS ignoring baked in, but I'm not entirely sold without digging deeper into the data. At face value, the Exorcist Launcher outclasses the Manticore, Basilisk, and Whirlwind launchers against most monsters and vehicles because of the d6 damage, with the Whirlwind falling even further behind due to its low AP and 7 Strength. The Manticore pulls closer vs T5 heavy infantry, but still does about half the damage of an Exorcist due to the swingy nature of d6 damage vs d3.

* Paragons: The -1D will be their saving grace against most anti-tank and even then it may not be enough. Multi-meltas within half range and dark lances will average 1.5 damage per shot (after probability and the -1D reduction) vs 2.2 against a T7, 3+ vehicle. Given how aggressive Drukhari and Ad Mech are, this is not a "good thing" for Paragons. But, as others have pointed out, the vehicle issue is more systemic than just Paragons and isn't an easy fix.

* Books and typos or massive need for errata: It happens, but as others have said it happens often enough with GW that it really is problematic. As I said elsewhere, I blame a lot of it on GW having an utter lack of competition in the market. A competitive market would drive their prices to the consumer down our of necessity on their end and also require better proof reading and play testing. Mistakes happening is one thing; it happening with the frequency it does is a different issue entirely.

I haven't seen many people complaining we can't out-aggro Drukhari/Ad Mech, but what I have seen is valid (and hyperbolic) issues with some of the changes. Exorcists, Immolators, and Battle Sanctums absolutely didn't need the nerfs they received nor did the Immolator and the Battle Sanctum need a points increase to boot -- especially the latter, which is almost impossible to deploy if you are competitive player. Changes did need to be made, but some maybe have been too heavy handed. Until the book is in the wild and people are playing with it, we won't know for certain.

My biggest irritation is GW tends to use "hammer and anvil" approaches to fixing issues rather than making a minor tweak and seeing how it plays out while rarely buffing things that may actually need some love. If it's still a problem you can always bring it down more, but if it's too weak they end up acting like they fixed the problem without acknowledging they created a worse one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Repeating my reply to ClockworkZion from B&C for those who don't follow the conversations over there, along with a slight edit!

'll look over the rest of the wall of text (and I don't mean this in a bad way, there's just a LOT to read) when I have more time, but Spirit of the Martyr isn't very good. I get it shouldn't be automatic, but I also think it should be better than "I lost a model in melee only, it has a 1/6 chance of popping a mortal on the attacker." The previous version wasn't great, but I would much rather have "shoot/swing back at the attacking unit" just because I have a generally higher chance of success than 17%.

Losing an entire unit of 20 Battle Sisters averages 3MW with a 1 in 10 chance of capping out at 6. To have a 50% chance of capping out at 6MW, you'd need to lose 34 Battle Sisters. You would need to lose 60 Battle Sisters to have a 95% chance of inflicting 6MW.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Hit too close to home? I figured while we're ranting on things like hiring proofreaders and cancelling typos we could revisit what has actually been delivered to this player base over the past 18 months. It is much more on topic than any of the vitriol coming from the same old people who make me wonder why they even play this faction if it is so terrible.

I'm not 100% sure GW even wear boots but if they do, you've licked them to a sparkling mirror sheen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dammit wrote:
I will defend everyone on the sacrosants part, I'm the only person who's said anything down on them.

And even then I'm only saying 'I think mortal wounds is this unit's obvious weakness so I'm thinking they play best in the subfactions that have access to defence against mortals.'

I still like the Sacrosants and think they're good, I just think people who expect them to be a tough as nails tank unit that can stand 3 rounds in the enemy backfield are setting themselves up for disappointment.

They're on the exact same level as repentia, they just do the job a different way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tanks in general are bad this edition. Honestly we probably just need a lot of people to email the 40k FAQ email complaining about how fragile tanks are and hope GW gives them a mid edition buff at this point like they did Marines.

I really like the idea someone posted before of Mass effect 3 or Xcom2 style armor that blocks some amount of damage, but breaks when they fail a save.

I'm more of a fan of giving them -1 damage (to a min of 1) to push D2 weapons away from being the answer to handling tanks (and monstrous creatures) and leave those more as elite infantry counters.

I dunno, I think it'd be a lot better if they just found something unique and fluffy for tanks to actually do, like, say, force non-vehicles and monsters off objectives by physically running into them and forcing them to either move or die.

You could call it...just off the top of my head here..."tank shock"?

yukishiro1 wrote:
I dunno, I think it'd be a lot better if they just found something unique and fluffy for tanks to actually do, like, say, force non-vehicles and monsters off objectives by physically running into them and forcing them to either move or die.

You could call it...just off the top of my head here..."tank shock"?

In the current state of the game, the 'shock' would be that the tank survived long enough to get that far up field.

Touche, though that could be fixed by increasing wounds, or defenses. Though I actually kind-of like a game where tanks are valuable for reasons other than their durability, and where part of the game strategy if you choose to go in that direction is eliminating your opponent's anti-tank before you bring out the tanks to then do their thing.

I just feel like there's this huge design space that's being totally wasted at this point by stupid game rules that give a 100 ton battle tank effectively the same mass as a T2 1W gretchen. Tanks are always going to struggle to have a role in the game as long as they're just effectively a big gretchen with better stats that can't do any of the nifty things that the gretchen can do.

What's the reason behind limiting the Paragon Warsuit squad to 3? I mean, why don't they are 3+ like 3-6?

Is it related to the holy trinity?

Plagueburst crawlers are about the only tank you'll see on a table, and even then most top level Death Guard lists aren't taking one.

For 5 points less than an exorcist it gets comparable firepower (I'd argue superior now the missiles lost a point of AP, but appreciate it's not cut and dry), ignore line of sight on its D6 cannon, -1 to damage and a 5++.

In reality it's the extra survivability that gets it on the table, but the Exorcist is overpriced regardless of how tanks perform in 40k.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Oh, I totally understand that it is a typo, and no one in my playgroup would ever charge 240 points a model. I bet you'd have a TO hard pressed to run them at 240/ea unless they had some sort of "I don't really like that faction" or "I will operate 100% RAW and the books are as immutable as the bible" type outlooks. I'm merely pointing out how normal people in the real world would look at that and laugh at the obviousness of it (they wrote 240 because it is min/max 3, therefore the unit's entry cost is quite literally 240... no need to individually point them because there's no way that'll be needed). But for whatever reason here on the internets, the conversation shifts to boogeymen and strawmen that are going to charge you 720+ points for a squad of Paragons. And then pointing out the absurdity of that 720+ point unit only costs 13PL in narrative or crusade games that tally on PL... so clearly GW has some sort of nefarious bias to force people to play on PL instead of points.

TO's forced GSC's to play with 40 pts chaff so...(would you think it's sensible if BSS suddenly was 100 pts? That increase was just as sensible)

TO's will force 240/model. They will also force no minimum for the -1 dam so you can charge your 720 pts squad into ork boyz and be 100% impervious to anything but big choppa/power klaw on the nob.

TOs will enforce their own house rules, as always. I don't think many TOs will push with 240/models and -1 damage without limit.

I thought for sure TOs wouldn't allow 10 point Reavers, and yet, to my dismay, about half did. It was downright amazing to me to see that level of refusal to apply common sense in the face of an obvious GW screwup.

 Blackie wrote:
TOs will enforce their own house rules, as always. I don't think many TOs will push with 240/models and -1 damage without limit.

Uuuuhh....changing stuff from what is written IS house rule.

So going for 240 for squad or -1 with limit IS house rule until GW errataes. That's the bloody point. TO's will enforce 240/model and no limit because they DON'T run house rules!

If you play with 240 for squad that's house rule. Sensible one yes but it's still house rule.

That's why GSC had to play with 40 pts per model chaff for a while. TO's refused to apply house rules even when it's sensible. They went as GW wrote the rules.

Come on, EVERY TO enforces house rules. The ITC/ETC/whatever formats, ban to some conversions or non GW models, time limitations and demanding a copy of the original codexes are the most common ones, none of them is a GW rule.

Yukishiro1's example is also a good one: not all the TOs allowed 10ppm reavers, and yet there was no possible confusion there unlike the case of Warsuits.