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John Prins wrote: I'll be the first to say that most people eat too much meat. Maybe 1/3 of my meals involve some form of meat/egg/fish. Meat is expensive and you don't need a lot of it. It is, however, an easier road to full nutrition than any sort of vegetarianism/veganism, which require a lot of education and effort to pull off. Most of the attempted vegetarians I've known gave up trying after a couple of months or years and most of them were fairly miserable about the whole ordeal of trying to be a vegetarian in an omnivore's world.
That it does. And I do think it'd be better if people could just reduce meat consumption to a more sensible level to where they get the vitamins they need out of it without consuming so much deceptively calorie dense food.
But having studied my own habits, a small change is one I'm likely to forget about after a few weeks, but if I instead spend a few weeks making a big change, I then correct to the small change I was aiming for after that period.
I was raised in an incredibly unhealthy household. I never did any sports until high school, when I was finally making some of my own decisions and I joined a football team, and pretty much every meal was processed, usually frozen, and almost all meat and carbs. The culture of revulsion surrounding eating a vegetable-based meal was a tough one to break, even after I'd realized how stupid it was when I left home for college and started eating not even healthily, just on a budget where I couldn't afford cheeseburgers and potato chips every night and I started losing weight while my parents ate themselves to death.
I think it's one part fear of the food being flavorless/not filling, and one part just..not knowing how to cook a meal that's only or even mostly vegetables. I think most americans try to come up with stuff and they're like
OK, Salad.
1) Salads
hmmm.
1 - Salad 2 -
Ok I'll just brainstorm:
-Salad - - -
.....
And salads are fine, but they have basically no seasoning, get old extremely fast, and if you swap from eating a certain amount of meat to a certain amount of salad without checking how many calories you're taking in you're liable to drop from 3000 calories per day to like 1200 and your digestive tract will jump up into your throat and strangle you until you eat more food.
I think this is a cultural thing, particularly for most Caucasian families, where you guys aren't taught how to actually cook vegetables right or in a way that's both healthy and tasty, I grew up hearing the usual tale of gross broccoli and other veggies but given that I was basically raised off of always having vegetables as one of the main dishes (usually bak choi, choi sum, broccoli or nappa) I never understood why there was a stigma around eating them. It wasn't until I went to a friend's house that I saw either how their dishes were completely vacant in veggies or they basically ate undercooked (or uncooked!) veggies and relying on dips and drowning it sauces to make it palatable. It's mind boggling that so many people don't know how to stir fry or boil veggies effectively as part of a home cooked meal.
I had a visceral negative reaction when you said "boiled". My mother (who learned from her mother, a post-WW2 1950s housewife who followed the "Domestic Science" philosophy of ease-of-digestion cooking) basically boiled every vegetable we ever ate, and never seasoned anything that was cooked.
That meant the meats, which were generally prepackaged and frozen, had whatever spices it had in the package so it at least tasted like something, but any piece of vegetable matter was limp, drained of all color and flavor by the boiling, and tasted like either the salt you put on it or nothing.
Yeah, the american cultural aversion to spinach, broccoli, brussels sprouts and several other veggies can be pretty much traced back to that post-apocalyptic hell philosophy pushed by 1950s food processing companies. Combine that with having never properly calorie-counted, leading to the first couple attempts at dieting getting stymied by accidentally trying to chop my daily calorie intake down to 1/3, I had a few issues with vegetables until I did a lot of research and learned to actually cook.
Thanks for sharing that! Didn't realize that it came from companies pushing that idea of cooking in the American household, thankfully with globalization and the internet I think that trend is going away. Still makes me disappointed that home economics or the basics of healthy eating when you cook for yourself isn't ingrained for education in the current public school system. That alongside doing taxes are some of the things I hope to get my kids to learn early given that I don't think that it'll be taught competently at school anytime soon.
If you think the internet is making it harder and not easier for companies to push misinformation on global consumers then I....admire your optimism?
Oh don't get me wrong, there's still plenty of misinformation and bad cooking on the net. At the very least though, you have options to try out potentially good and different things versus only being limited to a few bad cooking ideologies..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/13 19:48:04
queen_annes_revenge wrote: We can't digest raw meat because we've been cooking it so long, that's the same reason we don't have the huge caveman Jaws or teeth anymore
Who exactly do you mean by 'we' here? Our species has always had to cook (most) meat.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
And why is it relevant weather it’s cooked or not? It’s still meat.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I love lentils but how can you eat the regularly and not have bad Gas!
When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die.
Grey Templar wrote: And why is it relevant weather it’s cooked or not? It’s still meat.
You responded with two points:
"Anyway, humans are carnivores too."
Which seemed like kind of a wild claim, given that humans are perfectly capable of digesting a great number of plant based foods raw, but have an extremely tough time digesting large amounts of raw meat.
Consider that "Carnivore" means "an animal (such as a dog, fox, crocodile, or shark) that feeds primarily or exclusively on animal matter : a carnivorous animal". Humans do eat meat, but historically even pre-agriculture most of our nutrition came from plant matter. That makes us omnivores, not carnivores.
"Farm raised animals are safe, given all the food they need, and a quick and painless death."
This one's also pretty interesting to me. You could maybe back this claim up by talking about smaller free range farms where the goal is animal welfare, but the vast, vast majority of animals farmed for meat are being kept in factory farms, where your second and third claims are preeeeeetty suspect. And on the face of it, I just have to look back and forth between your first and third claim and wonder what your working definition of "Safe" is. Sure, they can't get killed by predators or the environment (though a significant number of them are killed well before slaughter by the other animals or because of the conditions they're kept in) but we're going to kill them as soon as they're fully grown. This just seems like describing Death Row inmates as "safe".
If you asked me whether I'd rather live out my life as a cow in the wild but I have to get killed by a wolf pack or if I'd like to live out my life in a factory farm and I get a relatively painless and definitely quicker death, I'm gonna pick the first one every time. Anyone who describes a factory farm as anything but an unimaginable nightmare has never been in one.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well, I have been in many so called "factory" farms. And I do describe them as safe and good for the animals. Anybody describing them as insufferable nightmares is ignorant about how animals actually function and/or hasn't been in one themselves.
For an example,
Many so called "animal welfare activists" claim that the small cages that laying hens are kept in are bad for their health. The truth is that one reason the cages are kept to the small size is because if the chickens are given more space they will actually hurt themselves. Leghorns are extremely flighty and skittish birds. If they are put in larger cages they will beat themselves to death from something as innocuous as a worker walking past them. And if a chicken has even a small injury, all the other chickens will quickly peck it to death and eat it.
Claims that it is bad for the animals health to keep them in confinement are also ignoring a very key fact. Animals that are in poor health do NOT make money for the farmer. If you spook a chicken, it will not lay eggs for several days. If the chicken is sick or ill, it won't lay any eggs at all. The fact that chickens lay hundreds of eggs a year in factory farms is proof that the chickens are not suffering or in poor health.
Likewise, if a pig is sick or stressed, it won't put on weight and the little meat is does make will be of poor quality. If a cow is sick or stressed, it won't make much milk or produce good beef.
Farmers of any kind do not make money if their animals are sick, stressed, or living in poor conditions. If factory farms were truly bad for the animals, there would be no money in raising animals like that. The fact that animals produce large volumes of product in these farms is proof that the animals are not suffering or in any kind of duress.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
As a Tyranid player this stands against everything we believe in!
Going clean for a month is a good thing for the body. As for the animal side of things, perhaps aim to take more note about the well being of the stock that you do eat. Caged chickens are not producing best results and its a miserable life for the animal, as well as delivering inferior food.
Our place in the animal kingdom is that of hunter and farmer, and so we shouldn't go silly on depriving ourselves. On the other hand, we get best results when we take responsibility for our work. We grow and raise our crops'n'stocks in seasons and so maybe January is a good start to the year when trying a diet, even if it is only for January....
My brother-in-law went vegetarian for a few years for health reasons. We frequently gathered with him and his family, so I was able to get a taste of vegetarian foods. I was surprised how good it was and could replace meat with fungi and other elements.
I do not think I would want to do it full time 100%, but it was a lot more tasty than I expected.
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I was a vegetarian for 5 years, back when I was in college. My diet mostly qualified as Veganism, except for the occasional cheese products and some of the ingredients in Ramen noodles.
Would advise avoiding it.
Had a real problem with the breakdown of muscle mass, it prevented me from getting much out of cardio or weight lifting. It affected my mood, making it a lot harder to socialize. Sleep problems were constant, I was always getting too much or too little, never finding a balance. I would get weird injuries, broke a rib one night just sleeping on it wrong.
This is all stuff I can see in retrospect. I'd describe Veganism as a stay in place lifestyle, you can't really do as much when you are denying yourself protein or getting it in synthetic form. There's plenty of people who claim they can, but compare them with actual athletes and you see what I mean.
Got off it after my first kid was born, returning to meat added necessary energy for late nights with toddler. Haven't looked back and recognize I'm healthier for having a balanced diet. I'm also glad to be free form the Vegans that were part of my life at the time. They treated the lifestyle much like a religion, not sure that's appropriate for what amounts to decisions about menus.
Veganism is heavily politicized and has been since the 1950s. The OP talked about how there's nothing to lose. That's false, of course, anytime someone encourages you to make a radical change to your lifestyle you should be asking yourself why is it so important.
The obvious downside is that veganism alters your body chemistry and metabolism in unpredictable ways even on short cycles. While you may feel a little better, it's short term and the diet itself is likely not the cause - i.e. you may be abstaining from fast food, which automatically has an improvement on your health and outlook on life. That doesn't mean root vegetables are magical or supplying you with the necessary nutrients. You could get the same boost simply by fasting.
Beyond that, veganism is completely separate from having a plant-based diet, it's a political movement and the people who push for it are very quiet about that aspect of things. The claims made by proponents are the equivalent of gun-rights activists, pro-lifers, and other issue advocates: they focus strictly on facts that support their argument and either ignore or distort ones that don't. That's dishonest and unethical.
You might want to consider these points next time you talk to a Vegan:
- There is no scalable model for sustainably producing enough food to feed the world’s population that does not include large animals.
- A diet devoid of all animal products is extremely detrimental to the health of most individuals. That’s a big reason why 84% of people who go vegan quit within the first twelve months.
If you really want to try this, go ahead, but please do not believe any claims that there is no downside. Mods should really consider whether this thread should be allowed on Dakka, there's an actual potential for someone to be harmed by letting this go unchallenged.
Hate to agree with ex but, yeah.. I like how gun rights and pro choice got lumped in there as negative connotations... Ironically too being as you're using them as snarl words, the very same thing you're accusing vegans of doing.
Truthfully lumping in those specific words Techsoldaten used seems like a crude attempt at getting the thread locked, just like his last sentence requested. That sauce is awful weak.
It's weird that at one point someone referred to someone as a "militant vegan", but in reality this thread was one person going "hey try eating some vegetables maybe" and the other responses have been a whole lot of hyper-aggressive pushback and paeans to meat eating.
I have no interest in actually trying veganism but still there might be handy cooking info about maybe trying something new once or twice in here. I dunno why people are so weirdly worked up about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/22 05:12:36
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Ouze wrote: Truthfully lumping in those specific words Techsoldaten used seems like a crude attempt at getting the thread locked, just like his last sentence requested. That sauce is awful weak.
It's weird that at one point someone referred to someone as a "militant vegan", but in reality this thread was one person going "hey try eating some vegetables maybe" and the other responses have been a whole lot of hyper-aggressive pushback and paeans to meat eating.
I have no interest in actually trying veganism but still there might be handy cooking info about maybe trying something new once or twice in here. I dunno why people are so weirdly worked up about it.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Might be some interesting alternative meals or cooking info in looking up something like that even if I have no desire to actually follow through on it for a month. The vehement defensive reactions to the mere suggestion are a bit overboard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/22 06:24:32
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Ouze wrote: Truthfully lumping in those specific words Techsoldaten used seems like a crude attempt at getting the thread locked, just like his last sentence requested. That sauce is awful weak.
It's weird that at one point someone referred to someone as a "militant vegan", but in reality this thread was one person going "hey try eating some vegetables maybe" and the other responses have been a whole lot of hyper-aggressive pushback and paeans to meat eating.
I have no interest in actually trying veganism but still there might be handy cooking info about maybe trying something new once or twice in here. I dunno why people are so weirdly worked up about it.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Might be some interesting alternative meals or cooking info in looking up something like that even if I have no desire to actually follow through on it for a month. The vehement defensive reactions to the mere suggestion are a bit overboard.
No matter how polite someone is with said suggestion, it still comes off to some as correcting their eating habits, which is awful presumptuous. Add onto the fact that for every kind, caring, and diplomatic vegan doing this you have three militant Lifestyle Justice Warriors who will sing "meat is murder" to you while you eat and try to shame or badger you into following what is in their mind the superior moral lifestyle. It sucks that someone gets lumped in with the bad apples, but when you play the ratios people have a bad tendency to expect all to act like most. Outliers get drowned out.
Ouze wrote: Truthfully lumping in those specific words Techsoldaten used seems like a crude attempt at getting the thread locked, just like his last sentence requested. That sauce is awful weak.
It's weird that at one point someone referred to someone as a "militant vegan", but in reality this thread was one person going "hey try eating some vegetables maybe" and the other responses have been a whole lot of hyper-aggressive pushback and paeans to meat eating.
I have no interest in actually trying veganism but still there might be handy cooking info about maybe trying something new once or twice in here. I dunno why people are so weirdly worked up about it.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Might be some interesting alternative meals or cooking info in looking up something like that even if I have no desire to actually follow through on it for a month. The vehement defensive reactions to the mere suggestion are a bit overboard.
No matter how polite someone is with said suggestion, it still comes off to some as correcting their eating habits, which is awful presumptuous. Add onto the fact that for every kind, caring, and diplomatic vegan doing this you have three militant Lifestyle Justice Warriors who will sing "meat is murder" to you while you eat and try to shame or badger you into following what is in their mind the superior moral lifestyle. It sucks that someone gets lumped in with the bad apples, but when you play the ratios people have a bad tendency to expect all to act like most. Outliers get drowned out.
I've literally never encountered one of these people other than two or three times on twitter and I've spent 20 years playing, promoting, and going to anarcho crust punk and grindcore shows. Probably the most vegan-heavy demographic in the west.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/22 19:04:46
While I can respect the choices of people who choose not to consume meat, I would never be one of them. I love meat too much to give it up. And I mean just about any kind of meat other than fish (which I don't hate but don't like much).
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 40 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Has...has that actually happened to you, Just Tony?
The most I get from my militant vegan friend these days is a warning that cooked and processed meats increase my chances of getting cancer.
I live next to Purdue University, it's happened at least five times there. The most odd was some rando outside the Novi Comicon in Michigan as I was approaching the con with some McD's for myself and my friends, he just walkes up and literally sings the sentence. I simply cocked my eyebrow and walked past. Not sure what it was supposed to accomplish.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Well, that is pretty random. I’m not sure McDonald’s even counts as meat.
We're talking about militant vegans here. If it's not on the PETA approved list of products that comes out every year, IT IS MURDER AND MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also, colleges bring out the worst. I've had fights picked with me AND been spit on because I was in uniform, I've seen someone grab someone else's food and throw it to the ground, it's simply the worst.
There is no downside, that's why people have to make things up to bash it.
The simplest way to tell if someone is a liar is when they tell you there are no downsides.
Disgusting.
Yeah, I mean have you heard that 100% of vegans die? it's a pretty damning statistic IMO. Better avoid it.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I believe Tony about campus kids. There are always edge lord protesters on college campuses trying to outdo each other. Fortunately, most of us don't have to deal with those kids after we graduate.
50 edgelord vegans broke into a local 1-man, 7-cow farm yesterday and harassed the poor guy to the point he had to call the police the get them out of the stables.
Reducing meat conspumption is good but for these tools it's not about that, it's about feeling morally superior to everybody else, just another part of gen Y and Z snowflake culture.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
My mother (who learned from her mother, a post-WW2 1950s housewife who followed the "Domestic Science" philosophy of ease-of-digestion cooking) basically boiled every vegetable we ever ate, and never seasoned anything that was cooked.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Imperial Knights: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1300 | Tyranids: 
~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
